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Final damage model mega thread (cannons, pens, structure)

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Those that didn't use 7th and 6th rates with hugging will still use them and acknowledge the effects if mistakes are made as they will be costly.

But, please, put sailing profiles and speends review on your development agenda. I know many consider a pain for ships not to be able to close haul but that's how they behave if we look to a credible reslistic outcome par with the gunnery. When they have to change tack they must do the manoeouver timely and without mistakes. As we have it now is very speedy. A change of tack at the worst moment possible did cost many battles.

The impossibility to sail so close the wind with grand fleets did cost empires.

The moment both battle lines meet is commitment. The way they choose to approach the enemy is planning.

Downtempo speeds and profiles to realism authenticity along with amazing gunnery.

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Sounds fun actually.

The really good sailors will still be able to overcome the odds and fight larger vessels.

I enjoy the thought that broadside to broadside fights will be more decisive and enjoyable. With this change you Now also can't repair and "tank" the damage, the damage will outweigh the repair action and that is a GOOD change.

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Well, actually with this dmg model (and no changes to HP) the smaller rates would be more efficient than a 1st rates.
Comparison of side by side of 
L'Ocean and Bucentaure (upper)
L'Ocean and 3rd Rate (bottom)

Salvo simulation on the left is the new values, on the right it's the old values.

So if even smaller class will finally have some real impact on upper ships, that might actually be really interesting!

Positive side effect?

qwer.png

Edited by OjK

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2 minutes ago, OjK said:

Well, actually with this dmg model (and no changes to HP) the smaller rates would be more efficient than a 1st rates.

Positive side effect?

qwer.png

But HP will be increased

Edited by Cecil Selous
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4 minutes ago, OjK said:

But with no changes to HP, L'Ocean would have 7000 damage on single broadside, therefore:

Wasa/Agamemnon has only 75% structure left after first salvo
Every 5th rate no named Indefatigable, would be almost dead after first salvo

I just wonder how would that impact the game...

I would be willing to test it. No frigate should be able to simply tank broadsides from a 1st rate. This massive damage could be balanced through turnrate nerf, higher build cost ( in addition to repair ) and more dockspace taken up by 1-3 rates and maybe even further speed nerf. This would limit their performance in OW and make them very vulnerable outside of a organised fleet formation. 

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@admin If there a chance we can use the small battles in testbed for this? It would also be better for getting more results in balanced br battles. I would like the community to use 1-4th rates to simulate potential port battles. Do you think br will be still working? 

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6 minutes ago, OjK said:

Well, actually with this dmg model (and no changes to HP) the smaller rates would be more efficient than a 1st rates.

Positive side effect?

qwer.png

i suggest you read the statements in proposed changes. Based on you post you seem to be jumping to conclusions by using weird made up assumptions (like when you assumed the data for pvedeaths pvekills is taken for the whole history of the project). dont take this as personal attack. its just an observation

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2 minutes ago, Velhelm Von Marrius said:

So what will it mean for my Prince? Be harder to take on frigates?

Attack something equal but not a herc. Herc is getting buffed.

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2 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Attack something equal but not a herc. Herc is getting buffed.

😢😢😢 I will really miss taking my prince out and killing 5th rates. Guess I will now just have to use a buffed up dlc ship to do the job. Boring.

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11 minutes ago, Velhelm Von Marrius said:

😢😢😢 I will really miss taking my prince out and killing 5th rates. Guess I will now just have to use a buffed up dlc ship to do the job. Boring.

It depends how good you are and how bad the 5th rate is. I cannot believe that you really think a prince should be compeditve to a 5th rate. Why don't you use a 5th rate instead of a DLC ship if I may ask? Why don't you go out a seek another prince captain of equal or better skill? Maybe you could learn something new. There is always room for improvement for every player but killing noobs in bigger ships teaches you nothing. 

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15 minutes ago, admin said:

dont take this as personal attack. its just an observation

I don't, no worries!

I also have a tendency to oversimplify what I'm trying to say, so people actually miss my point. So I'll expand it a bit.

The biggest difference between 1st rates, and 2nd rates is the amount of guns, not their class.
If You'd look only at the biggest calibers, the difference is not so big. Just the extra deck of smaller ones usually makes a difference.

For example - old (current) DMG of medium guns L'Ocean is 3266, with Bucentaure medium guns is 2428. L'Ocean has almost 25% more dmg.
With new proposed values - L'Ocean would have 6965 vs Bucentaur 5860, so L'Ocean has now only 15% more dmg.

Therefore, smaller rates might get a bit more attention. Especially, that current SOL HP values ratio are quite close to they're weight difference, aren't they?

I hope I explained my thoughts better this time :)

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as long as grapes are limited the same way chains were in term of numbers, we can test whatever. Tweaking combat mechanics wont fix the broken overall immersion in RVR, and trading though.

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6 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

It depends how good you are and how bad the 5th rate is. I cannot believe that you really think a prince should be compeditve to a 5th rate. Why don't you use a 5th rate instead of a DLC ship if I may ask? Why don't you go out a seek another prince captain of equal or better skill? Maybe you could learn something new. There is always room for improvement for every player but killing noobs in bigger ships teaches you nothing. 

Maybe it's your Fav ship and the others do not appeal to you. How much time will you spent looking for the 1one fight that will not sink you almost instant?

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@admin btw, if by weight you mean mass it will be interesting to see how ship class deal with it: an indef mass is 1960, wasa 2000, wapen 1770, inger 1850, bellona 2420, consitution 2240 and aga 2100.

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50 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Those that didn't use 7th and 6th rates with hugging will still use them and acknowledge the effects if mistakes are made as they will be costly.

But, please, put sailing profiles and speends review on your development agenda. I know many consider a pain for ships not to be able to close haul but that's how they behave if we look to a credible reslistic outcome par with the gunnery. When they have to change tack they must do the manoeouver timely and without mistakes. As we have it now is very speedy. A change of tack at the worst moment possible did cost many battles.

The impossibility to sail so close the wind with grand fleets did cost empires.

The moment both battle lines meet is commitment. The way they choose to approach the enemy is planning.

Downtempo speeds and profiles to realism authenticity along with amazing gunnery.

I would welcome more realism in sailing profiles.

I see one problem with that idea though! We have static circle positions in Port Battles but wind direction is pseudorandomised. Who wins a Port Battle may well become so dependent on the wind direction that even significant differences in the skill of the fleets and their respective commanders may no longer have an impact. More realistic but also problematic in terms of gamedesign. Noone wants tactical battles decided by random number generators...

Edited by Tom Farseer

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10 minutes ago, Tom Farseer said:

dependent on the wind direction

Wow... if that isn't a thing with ships moved by wind i don't know what it is. And we do not have wind strengths which make everything even better.

( let's just say the USF Essex lost top mains due to a sudden gale, you know, totally randomly generated in reality :D  because for twice did the gale show as much as two times did the wind die almost to a standstill during the prelude to the gunnry, which sealed her choice to try to run away ... but hey, that's something very similar to all naval engagements and i'm glad NA tries the bare minimum to simulate that )

But good point on the Port Battles circles.

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14 minutes ago, OjK said:

For example - old (current) DMG of medium guns L'Ocean is 3266, with Bucentaure medium guns is 2428. L'Ocean has almost 25% more dmg.
With new proposed values - L'Ocean would have 6965 vs Bucentaur 5860, so L'Ocean has now only 15% more dmg.

Therefore, smaller rates might get a bit more attention. Especially, that current SOL HP values ratio are quite close to they're weight difference, aren't they?

admin:"Example.

HP
Cutter hp will drop to 968 from 1768 (based on 4x weight to hp modifier)
Ocean hp will become 24374 (from 12086)

Damage
Cutter max caliber guns broadside damage will increase from 220 to 300 (reducing time to kill from 7.5 broadsides to 3.6 broadsides)
Ocean max caliber guns broadside damage will increase from 3266 to 6975 (keeping time to kill almost the same (old 3.7 - new 3.5 broadsides)"

@OjK I think you forgot the HP buff based on ship weight. Basically this means (i just assume this number now) with a Buc at ~19k HP it will need ~4.2 broadsides (~4,8 before) to kill an Ocean while the Ocean only needs ~2.7 broadsides (before it was about three). admin also stated that the HP difference between eg 5th and 1st will highly increase. So no, smaller ships won't be the ones who benefit from this change.

 

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41 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Maybe it's your Fav ship and the others do not appeal to you. How much time will you spent looking for the 1one fight that will not sink you almost instant?

i dont look for pvp at all. I ask for it from people I know. 

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12 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

i dont look for pvp at all. I ask for it from people I know. 

You're even leeching pvp, wow.

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On 2/1/2019 at 12:04 PM, admin said:

 But even those ideas are realized. Sterncamping with lets say 20 guns will be still more powerful because a first rate can only place maybe 20-30 muskets on stern, which will help but will not solve stern camping. 

To rephrase
We want stern camping to be historical and strong. And we want light ships to destroy first rates by stern camping if they are able to get there (using superior skill in positioning and sail management). But we want light ships to pay for mistakes (for example getting into broadsides by mistakes) because currently they don't pay.

 

Solution to this problem seems to me very obvious and you already mentionend it by yourself:

 

On 2/1/2019 at 11:08 AM, admin said:

But there is one flaw in this balanced system

  • 4LB gun has bigger DPS compared to heavier guns. Broadside weight is not very important because damage is based on cannon diameter (not area or weight).
  • As a result a full broadside from a ship of the line does not inflict devastating damage on light ships allowing them to recover (see mistake forgiveness above)

 

It should be in reverse. First rate should not worry about frigates at all and can just sail normally, its the frigates that must not make mistakes.
This can be achieved by tuning penetration values, increasing damage based on weight or a combination of these. <--- this pls

 

TLDR: giving SoLs their historical correct broadside WEIGHT, maybe with additional RIGGING damage, and Light Frigates will have to pay the price if they get into broadside firezone with severly damaged hull, additional leaking and, most important; wrecked sails and rigging !!!

... which would be by far the most threatening for the Frigs :P 

 

EDIT:

I want to add, pls give ALL ships their historical correct broadside WEIGHT and calculate damage accordingly !!

Because after all, most players will agrees on getting the most historical SIMULATION of Age of Sail possible :) 

 

Edited by Sir Max Magic

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42 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

It depends how good you are and how bad the 5th rate is. I cannot believe that you really think a prince should be compeditve to a 5th rate. Why don't you use a 5th rate instead of a DLC ship if I may ask? Why don't you go out a seek another prince captain of equal or better skill? Maybe you could learn something new. There is always room for improvement for every player but killing noobs in bigger ships teaches you nothing. 

I enjoy the challenge. Prince, what it lacks in firepower in comparison to 5th rates makes up for it in mobility. Yeah there are a lot of scrub kills but there have been prominent players as well. 

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@admin Love the new ideas, but there are definitely some things that need to be included.

  1. Will cannon finally have its own Aiming Characteristics instead of aiming being tied to gun ports? It is very odd that a 32lb carronade on a side and a 32lb carronade on the stern do not have the same accuracy. We seriously need the pinpoint accuracy of stern cannon reduced heavily. 
  2. Chain should do some damage to top mast. It should be possible to take off a top mast with chain alone due to rigging damage.
  3. Chain should be able to disable yard turning. This would have a timer on it like rudder and require emergency repair. (I know there is Rigging Shock, but it does not work like Rudder, but should.)
  4. Grapeshot should be able to do a fair amount of sail damage, moreso than regular shot. This is reported in many journals by captains. Perhaps grapeshot should have a Scatter Damage" model?
    • Also, another upgrade suggestion might be something called "Netting" or "Grapeshot Netting" that was used to prevent casualties via grapeshot.
  5. Carronades should do more crew damage than longs and mediums...when penetrating. (I don't know if they currently do or not.)

Looking forward to the test patch.

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On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 6:44 AM, Intrepido said:

Well the Constitution was a heavier ship delivering stern rakes to a smaller ship so it is normal to be so devastating.

 

Where are the sources of light ships surrendering or destroying heavier ships by sternrakes?

 

It was the Java that stern raked the Constitution destroying her wheel. But most of Java's shot missed so the damage could have been worse. You have a frigate vs. a heavy frigate (Trinc vs. Connie in NA) which is still a similar class of ship, far different from a Pickle stern raking the Victory of course.

BTW: The wheel on the Constitution now is still the wheel taken from Java after the battle.

@admin Looking forward to testing weight damage model 👍

 

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