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Final damage model mega thread (cannons, pens, structure)

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Captains. Lets talk about cannons 

What is working well and what can work better in terms of gun stats (damage, penetration, ranges etc)

there are several other threads that were raising issues with guns and gunnery like

or

 

Please lets move all discussions to this topic

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i m happy with all cannons. we need only a few Poods Ports. you can craft only Poods in that ports. 4-5 ports around the map. 

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42lb carronades feel anemic.  Sometimes it feels that as the ball increases in size, the drop increases, causing a sharper angle and more deflections.

Leaks in general feel like they are merely a pest, not anything important.  I'd suggest that as armor decreases on a side, the % chance of leaks increases, which would make spike damage on larger vessels more felt by smaller vessels.

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As I said a few times before, bring 1st, 2nd and 3rd rate closer together by completly removing the 42s, maybe even the 36s.

This way 3rd rates won't get reloadshocked by bigger ships all time, while the 2nd and 1st rates still carry a massive broadside.

 

An no to poods. Craftable poods would make all other cannons obsolete.

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I dont know if it fits on the discussion but the cannons placed in forts are only effective in short distance.

I have no idea which type of cannons are they so I can not say much about their values.

 

Personally I feel the 12pd on frigates quite disappointing. And you usually find people using carros instead.

I honestly cant remember when was the last time I saw a belle poule with longs. Also it is quite common to place carros on the top deck of some frigates due to the low performance of the 6pd, 9pd and 12pd.

18pd-24pd frigates are the most used atm: Hercules, Trinc, Endy, Essex.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

I dont know if it fits on the discussion but the cannons placed in forts are only effective in short distance.

I have no idea which type of cannons are they so I can not say much about their values.

 

Personally I feel the 12pd on frigates quite disappointing. And you usually find people using carros instead.

I honestly cant remember when was the last time I saw a belle poule with longs. Also it is quite common to place carros on the top deck of some frigates due to the low performance of the 6pd, 9pd and 12pd.

18pd-24pd frigates are the most used atm: Hercules, Trinc, Endy, Essex.

 

 

Their accuracy is just bad, they are not ineffective at the range. 

 

About guns topic... 36pd are useless. Never used them. No one is using them. For some reason also, carronades became recently much heavier than before and the information about that was skipped in patch notes. No reason mentioned, no change mentioned, as we call it... ninja-patch. 

Stern chasers are super accurate while bow chasers are drunk. This leads to hundreds of problems in my opinion and doesn't make much sense.

Edited by Banished Privateer
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49 minutes ago, admin said:

Капитаны. Давайте поговорим о пушках 

Что работает хорошо и что может работать лучше с точки зрения характеристик оружия (урон, проникновение, диапазоны и т. Д.)

Есть несколько других тем, которые поднимали проблемы с оружием и стрельбой, как

или же

 

Пожалуйста, давайте перенесем все обсуждения в эту тему

Добавьте пожалуйста эту тему на РУ части форума

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Great initiative!!

 

Firstly: I would like all cannon weights to be historically accurate and using the same metrics. British pounds, french/spanish livre, I don't really care but use the same weights and configure the rest to the same weight table.

Secondly: (I use the current weights here, accepting that reconfiguring measurements to historically accurate measurements in the same weight table is a bit much to ask for)

Longs:

42pds: should req 1 or 2 more crew pr. cannon but other than that I think it's fine. The criticism of the vics being useless in PBs is imo flawed by the fact that the PBs force a specific meta rather than promoting different tactics. I do believe it's a great ship for PvP or hostility creation so any statement that it doesn't have a role is imo not correct.

36pds: should be able to be loaded on all 1st and 2nd rates. I would prefer historically accurate measurements, but failing that I would like to see the dmg being reduced by 1 (doesn't sound like a lot, but 28 guns later it adds up), secondly it should req a bit less crew so as to promote its use on less crewed ships. The danger with this is that everyone will use them on the vic, which in terms of PBs will, perhaps, make the vic a bit less effective in port battles. 

32pds: great, don't fix what ain't broken.

24pds: I kinda like the spot where they are atm.

18pds: I think they should have a small buff to pen, but other than that it's great.

12pds: can't say - never use them.

9pds: should be reloaded 1 sec faster, but other than that I think they are great.

6pds: They are great.

basic 4pds: no need to change a gun most players only use while lvl'ing.

2pds: no need to change.

 

Carros:

68pds: placed in the ass of a SoL it's too accurate. Ez demast weapon and should  be less accurate.

42pds: short range, very good carro. I think they should be nerfed a sec or two in reload time, but other than that I believe they are great.

32pds: great carro.

24pds: never use them so can't say anything informative.

18pds: great carro and balanced in terms of acc, dmg and reload time.

12pds: never use them so can't say anything informative.

 

In general I believe that the guns in game is in a balanced state. The only really unbalanced gun is the edinoroog and I reheeeally dislike the addition of them to a game that sports itself as being 'realistic'. 

About the forts:

RvR: The forts atm is still basically free points for MBs, atleast experienced MB players.. I'd suggest removing the forts, perhaps keep a tower or two and let the PBs be decided by fleet actions.. Very few islands in the carribean had any fortifications worth mentioning and most were spanish (San Juan, Vera Cruz, Havana, Caracas all had fortifications that would've been impressive even in Europe, no other nation in the carribean could sport such fortifications before the late 18th century).. 

 

Regards Lars Kjaer

 

PS: Could we please, please, PLEASE have a thread on the econ as well?! Imo combat is one of the strongest aspects of this game, it works. Econ is non-existant, RvR is atm not really worth it and crafting has become both too simplistic and too dependant on available ressources.

Edited by Lars Kjaer
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Could take some time, but i suggested in the fluffy fish post to implement the cannons from the nations in the game, where a hms victory in the french navy can use up to 36pd aswell as a french bellona can use 36pd and a british l'ocean can use up to 42pd

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Just now, Wyy said:

Could take some time, but i suggested in the fluffy fish post to implement the cannons from the nations in the game, where a hms victory in the french navy can use up to 36pd aswell as a french bellona can use 36pd and a british l'ocean can use up to 42pd

A historical, unbalanced and illogical.

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I think we need to test the damage by broadside weight initiative before we can speak with any authority on canons.  Everything will change when this comes into play.

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56 minutes ago, Batman said:

As I said a few times before, bring 1st, 2nd and 3rd rate closer together by completly removing the 42s, maybe even the 36s.

This way 3rd rates won't get reloadshocked by bigger ships all time, while the 2nd and 1st rates still carry a massive broadside.

 

An no to poods. Craftable poods would make all other cannons obsolete.

L'oceans should only be able to use the 36's.  The only ship that should have the 42's is the Victory.  Santi, Bucc Pavel all should be using the 36's too.   In fact the Pavel should be 36-24-18(instead of the 6).   This will give the low HP Victory's a bit of an edge, while the other ships use there proper cannons.  As for 3rds getting reload shocked?  What are you in a paper ship, I don't think I ever been reload shocked in any SOL unless I was focused on, why wouldn't a 3rd that took a full broad side form a 1st rate not go into reload shock if hit right?   

As for crafting poods.  They should only be on Russian ships (this is more a joke).  Maybe make them only craftable in Russian owned ports.   Bring out other cannon types like swedish cannons and such too.   Poods and other cannons like it could be RvR or PvP rewards you can buy with Doubloons or something.

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24 minutes ago, Lars Kjaer said:

About the forts:

RvR: The forts atm is still basically free points for MBs, atleast experienced MB players.. I'd suggest removing the forts, perhaps keep a tower or two and let the PBs be decided by fleet actions.. Very few islands in the carribean had any fortifications worth mentioning and most were spanish (San Juan, Vera Cruz, Havana, Caracas all had fortifications that would've been impressive even in Europe, no other nation in the carribean could sport such fortifications before the late 18th century)..

i dont agree, brits had several great forts and bastions, as did french on Haiti and in the antilles, and the us with star forts along their coast.

What i do agree with is that the forts to this day is a joke and free points for a MB, some forts are placed in unlogical areas so i think replacing square forts by a clan should be a thing with certain layout.

For the cannons to be effective i would love it they could be player controlled (not thinking about the round towers though they are just insects compared to a fleet). Eg, setting a square fort further up into the hillside would give it far more range instead of it being set down by the water.

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I forgot the laser cannons of the stern chasers. It is so absurd seeing such accuracy that I even find it funny. Dimasts by stern chasers makes me laugh.

And the mortars, some months ago they became better than WWII artillery, being able to destroy fortifications in 2 minutes (an insult for the archittecture) and snipe ships (destroying masts or estructure).

About 36pd, I have never used them.

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To me 36pd should be available to every ship with class 1 maindeck, and maybe 42pd restricted to ships that had them (victory), or not.

12pd and 18pd cannons feels like out of place,  they are the useless in-between, too weak dmg & pen regarding the 24, too slow reload while lacking some punch regarding the 9 pounders. Look at how edinorog are a must have for 18pd frigates & lineships with 18lb gundeck.

The heavier guns (32pd+ should also be balanced by traverse speed, the heavier should be the slower to move.

I have no opinion about dmg by ball size vs dmg by ball weight..

 

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24 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Mon retour sur les canons: Laissez-les tranquilles.

Arrêtez de tailler le bout pointu du bâton ou vous n'aurez plus rien. Le modèle de combat est génial et ne nécessite aucun développement supplémentaire. Vous concentrez votre attention sur ce qui va attirer et fidéliser de nouveaux joueurs:

Contenu.

Zones de sécurité sans PvP où les nations règnent avec une poigne de fer + zones de PvP sans perte à côté de celles sans RvR + butin complet, tout est permis, zones libres pour toutes avec RvR et guerres de clans.

Tout à fait d'accord avec toi. Toutefois, je pense que la portée des canons des forts devrait être allongée.

Cordialement, La Fayette

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No poods. Have them be special and rare.

Most ships did not have 42lbers.  

Damage otherwise seems fine and is one of the stronger aspects of the game.  If it ain’t broke.....

I think we’re long overdue to have each deck independently load types of shot though.  

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Cannons are fine right now. This is one area that needs no development. 

That being said, mediums are pointless vs longs. 

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stern v bow cannons is the proof for me that all that was ever needed to fix mast sniping was a decrease in cannon accuracy. Ships still feel like sponges imo, fires and pump hits are inconsequential. Stern hits do very little damage.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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1 minute ago, Slim McSauce said:

Stern hits do very little damage.

I don't think we should look for more catastrophic damage from stern hits.  They were very decisive in RL, but they were also quite difficult to accomplish.   In the game, we dogfight and have orders of magnitude more manoeuvrability. 

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1 minute ago, Angus MacDuff said:

In the game, we dogfight and have orders of magnitude more manoeuvrability. 

ever more reason to punish people for using their ass to tank shots. Fires definitely are missing here, as well as massive damage output to the enemies cannons. Fill the back of an enemy with a full broadside and there definitely should be more damage than a dozen crew and a tick of structure which people tend to use to avoid serious damage.

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I'd like the ranging shot firing order to be optimized on ships like renommee or st pavel; the upper deck guns are annoying to have because if you have them equipped, they fire first by default and make aiming the entire broadside difficult instead of adding to it. To avoid this you can disable them, but keeping track of when they are loaded and if you want them to fire makes them annoying to micromanage for a really small increase in firepower. I would like the firing order for ships with weird configurations to be tweaked so that they fire in a pattern that is more useful to aim or range a larger broadside. For instance on the pavel, have the 2nd from top deck of guns fire first with ranging shots, and only the top deck guns fire when the natural progression of shots from the lower deck reaches that point along the ship.

Crudely drawn example of gun layout for a ship like renommee:

Untitled.png.78d5dfd46d4815ba9aa6d17228b7bdf0.png

Currently the game would fire in this order:

8, 9, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

I would prefer either 

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.

or better

1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 5, 9, 6, 7.

A small change, but one that would make the quality of life better for any ship with a huge gap in its upper deck or very few guns there.

Edited by Capt Aerobane
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2 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

Fill the back of an enemy with a full broadside and there definitely should be more damage than a dozen crew and a tick of structure which people tend to use to avoid serious damage.

Definitely true for RL, but there is much more involved here. Stern raking is very common in this game because of the many artificial simulations that we use.  If you want a battle to be over because of a stern rake (as it would have been in RL), then get ready for some real rage.  There are more sterns being presented in this game than on Canal st in Amsterdam.  

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