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Testbed Feedback - Battle UI, Localization, Patrols, Delivery quests

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I think with adjusting the guns to causing a somehow historical damage, the whole damage model has to be adjusted, too, to more historical results.

I understand that most people don't want change the things they are used to, but on testbed we should try.

Now what is the historical result of receiving cannon shots?

The wooden parts of the ships above the waterline are torn to pieces, men are killed and guns dismounted. Only shots close to the waterline and below cause sinking. In my opinion this should be represented in the game. 

On the other hand the top masts might be (more or less) easily shot away while the lower parts of the masts were only to break when the shrouds were gone. I posted earlier an proposal how this might be simulated.

For gameplay reasons i think angling for bouncing balls is necessary and large ships should be slower than small one ( at least at one point of sail), so there ia always the possibility to escape. 

The game will turn with this from a sinking to a boarding game, while sinking ships is still possible.

At the same time surrendering and saving the crew should have a bigger value. I suggest to introduce the sailor categories: landmen (that can be hired in port), ordinary seamen (each needs 20 XP to be promoted from landsman) and able seaman (each needs 50XP to be promoted from ordinary seaman).

Landsmen do the work slowest, able seaman fastest. All were killed during battle, landsman easy to replace, loosing seaman hurts. The result: if the battle is hopeless the wise captain surrenders to save the crew.

For me this would give the game more depth and with it fun to play.

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Just now, z4ys said:

Heth you are always posting ganking pics :P

Because the romantic 1v1 never existed ( well maybe once in a daring occasion during the 1812 war jejejej ).

1v1 were chance encounters in the open world.

 

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Those SOLs are 68 guns :) , not 90 - 100 - 120

Alas, more powerful than frigates, and were expected, as no frigate was, to stand in a line of battle along with the other ships of the line. Acceptable risk, as put by the Admiralty.

I dare you to stay with a 68 in a PB in the line.

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1 hour ago, admin said:

In new model

  • Average player will despatch 3 frigates with ease. 
  • Average player will still sink to other skilled heavy lineships

So why should I sail a 5th rate in PvP?

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23 minutes ago, Jan van Santen said:

Hearsay ? I play this game since 2016...

And yes, ai density has been reduced substantially in a previous patch, I recommend you read the "Empty Seas" thread on this forum.

 

I don't read any misleading threads, instead of this i play the actual game - and this since August '16 with only 2-3 weeks of a break every year during family vacation.

Every time i leave for example Great Corn, the first AI will show up after 75-90 seconds. True since '16 and never changed. The only thing the devs changed are the nation of AI in your home waters...

 

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4 minutes ago, Ganking Simulator said:

So why should I sail a 5th rate in PvP?

RvR limitations, ultra high cost, rare resources in oder to build sols or Max allowed port slots for sols . Otherwise yes why would anybody sail 5th rates.

Edited by z4ys
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51 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Your "new model" bullet points dont address the first 2 bullet points on the "old model".

Will there be any changes to those values?

Raw POWER is the missing piece to fix those values.
Because if a ship of the line is somewhat equal to 2 light frigates, players will not pay for such power
If the power is proper then players will pay for such power, will take such ships out (not only to screens and port battles) and will generally understand why they cost so much.

It all comes back to the Trafalgar composition dilemma - which we finally address.
If the frigates were so strong and good and balanced historically, why Nelson did not take 30 frigates, and took 30 ships of the line instead (taking 4 frigates only for signal repeating and messaging). 
 

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1 hour ago, erde_m said:

So the goal is: Everybody wants to sail first class ships as King of the Seas - this will drive away the last lot of "old" players

 

no you have not read the goals
goals are
remove bow tanking
solve DPS dilemma
solve weight difference dilemma 

Solving this creates the situation where ships of the line power will increase. 
74 will be a main workhorse as it was historically, and every player will no longer be afraid to take 74s for hunting. Frigates will have the role as well in tacking and chasing and sitting on the stern, as stern damage is now higher, more devastating. But they will have to do it with 100% precision as every mistake will send them to the bottom of the sea.

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2 minutes ago, admin said:

Raw POWER is the missing piece to fix those values.
Because if a ship of the line is somewhat equal to 2 light frigates, players will not pay for such power
If the power is proper then players will pay for such power, will take such ships out (not only to screens and port battles) and will generally understand why they cost so much.

It all comes back to the Trafalgar composition dilemma - which we finally address.
If the frigates were so strong and good and balanced historically, why Nelson did not take 30 frigates, and took 30 ships of the line instead (taking 4 frigates only for signal repeating and messaging). 
 

Fair enough.  But my question is this:  After someone CAN afford a 1st rate, why would anyone sail anything else?

Bigger point:  Do you feel the seas will end up being populated by endless amounts of identically-built L'Oceans?

Its ok, if thats what you envision, but I wanted your take on it....

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21 minutes ago, Ganking Simulator said:

So why should I sail a 5th rate in PvP?

To hunt other 5th rates and traders.  5th rates won't fade away.  They can avoid any SOL and are way more fun to fight in (IMHO).

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11 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Fair enough.  But my question is this:  After someone CAN afford a 1st rate, why would anyone sail anything else?

From my reading of it, they would not take it out on account of cost.  Big risk to lose, and, too slow to do anything on a hunt(...?)

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40 minutes ago, van Veen said:

No one cares about the costs for whatever ship. Resources are available without limitation. To make this work you need to fix the economy and inflation. It's just a matter of who affords more alts and more time working them. 

 

16 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Heh, exactly. By not linking production of crafting-related goods, and hence ships to active, in-game time you will only limit ships to highly organized clans and people with alts for a limited period. Doubloons are a good example of how this was attempted. But they are a half measure that were designed to place a limiting resource on end-game content that could only be gathered via in-game activities.  Like so many things that have been tested in the past (region bonuses, fine woods, etc. come to mind) the core idea is great but the implementation and balance of the mechanics surrounding them never get addressed.

Instead of doing the hard work of balancing the economy, RvR, and providing the interesting, engaging content that keeps new and casual players in the game.. boom, we reinvent the damage model because It's more "fun" to work on.  🙄

Discussion of the issues not related to damage feedback must be avoided. 
Only topic that should be discussed here is damage on the testbed. Nothing else.

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We can always make crafting SOLs a lot harder than it is right now, make it that whoever wants to sail a SOL needs to grind their asses off. Make it somehow resources are way more needed than right now, more quantity to craft one. There's plenty of ways to make it so people don't just flood the whole server with SOLs and boatislands like the 1st rates to just simply go in OW hunting smaller ships because they are too hello-kitty to go against ships of their own rate.

Y'all need to stop thinking about how this is going to hello-kitty the entire game and instead, start freaking testing out the server and giving out feedbacks and suggestions so our new suggested damage model can actually work properly and be something that everyone enjoys it. 

I'm one of the guys that usually sails frigates and I'm still thrilled and excited to see that damage model go into our live server because honestly, it was ridiculous to fight against SOLs and too see SOLs hunting solo in OW for smaller ships just because they were the majority around. SOLs, 1st rates, 2nd rates and 3rd rates should be always used in PBs and huge battles that number up to 10v10 players, people need to leave the mentality of hunting w/ SOLs just for the sake of pvp and start using smaller ships to do so. 

Making those bigger ships expensive, difficult to craft would only make them way more valuable at the long run and better ships to defend ports and huge battles. This game is not a hunting simulator, even tho it looks like everyone just likes to do it. This would and will change it, and I believe that.

With this damage model, economy will have to fall in place, other systems that embrace that one will have to fall in place and more systems will have to be compatible with it in order to work, to do that we need everybody testing and reporting back so admin can improve it to make it better for us.

Edited by Portuguese Privateer
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2 hours ago, Hethwill said:

Those SOLs are 68 guns :) , not 90 - 100 - 120

Alas, more powerful than frigates, and were expected, as no frigate was, to stand in a line of battle along with the other ships of the line. Acceptable risk, as put by the Admiralty.

I dare you to stay with a 68 in a PB in the line.

The 74 trend was a thing of the late XVIII century, but at the early 1700s it was common to see those ships in line battles too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Toulon_(1744)

Edited by Intrepido
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1 hour ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Fair enough.  But my question is this:  After someone CAN afford a 1st rate, why would anyone sail anything else?

Bigger point:  Do you feel the seas will end up being populated by endless amounts of identically-built L'Oceans?

Its ok, if thats what you envision, but I wanted your take on it....

If folks are so rich they can make so many SOL's than we need to look at other parts of the game.  Honestly I think we need a good wipe and let folks start over from scratch mats wise and see just how many SOL's and such we see pop up suddenly.   Than again this new damage model might work effectively at doing so.  Remember it's not a sure win having a SOL, cause numbers can still out gun you even if they are in smaller ships.

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2 hours ago, jnovotny6 said:

Admin, when do you think you might deploy the patch? Could you give us some idea of time frame we are looking at?

we are waiting for localization grid bugs to be finished + clan resources to be finished as well.

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4 minutes ago, admin said:

we are waiting for localization grid bugs to be finished + clan resources to be finished as well.

clan resources? I dont know what is that.

Edited by Intrepido

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Now carronades are so powerfull, maybe you should remove maindeck carro options for ships that never had such, like the trincomalee, Belle poule, Renommée, Hermione, Constitution, Frigate, Hercules, Requin (maybe separate frigate l'Unité from the HMS Suprise) Keep them for topdeck except for the Indef, Essex & Cerb (maybe surprise)

 

Also double shot should probably not deal dmg equivalent to two ball shots, but instead just deal x2 structure dmg when hit penetrate

Edited by Baptiste Gallouédec
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2 hours ago, admin said:


Solving this creates the situation where ships of the line power will increase. 
74 will be a main workhorse as it was historically, and every player will no longer be afraid to take 74s for hunting. Frigates will have the role as well in tacking and chasing and sitting on the stern, as stern damage is now higher, more devastating. But they will have to do it with 100% precision as every mistake will send them to the bottom of the sea.

A few points based on testing and others' observations in this thread:

First I agree with the goals as stated by admin. However many people have brought up unintended gameplay consequences and a "realism domino effect" as it were which must be addressed. 

@Wraith brought up the mod meta possibility of a speed fit 1st rate or lineship catching and destroying frigates. So in essence who would sail 5th rates then. 

So with the new DM mods will need to be reviewed. Should we have a Victory made out of fir going 14.5 knts in game? IMO absolutely not. 

Could a line ship catch a frigate or small ship - yes if the wind was strong enough - but we don't have wind strength in game. (that's OT though). 

@Hethwill Suggests more realistic sailing profiles. Yes bring it in battle instance only. Square rigged ships did not sail less than 60 degrees to the wind. Tacking should be a slow process for the really large ships, ie; 1st rates. I have sailed on smaller square rigged ships that could tack in 5 minutes, schooners even less. Again as admin suggested the subject of another thread but still relevant to the overall combat model. 

Accuracy must be adjusted. With a more realistic damage model we need a more realistic accuracy model. That should also help with mast sniping. 

Dismasting is a bit too all or nothing. Too easy to take out a whole mast without first taking out some structure. If we see damage to structure or sides as also damaging standing rigging then it should be easier for spars to fall as damage accrues. For some reason we are not seeing the upper spars and topmast falling as much as we should be. @Sea Archer post on this subject and that of the damage results had merit and is worth looking into. Massive crew casualties as a abstraction of morale for example. @Wraith post on this subject and damage effects on rigging is similar and worth considering as well 

Line ships did travel alone on occasion 74 ships in particular as admin noted. Often they were travelling to a station rather than hunting but in the Caribbean you did see a squadron lead by a single 74 or 64 for example. The 74 being found to be a very cost effective ship that could be used in a variety of roles. However it did not replace frigates and 6th rates (sloops) as the eyes of the fleet, convoy escorts and raiders. We need to find a way to keep these roles alive in NA. 

Lastly @Portuguese Privateer I also tested 6th and 7th rates. One standout was with carros - example Rattlesnake with carros vs. Pickle 4 hull hits and Pickle in shock. Although at close range carros should hit small ships hard. Overall the results are less extreme than with the larger ships. 

BTW - still getting hieroglyphs after starting boarding. Not every time though. 

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7 minutes ago, Baptiste Gallouédec said:

Now carronades are so powerfull, maybe you should remove maindeck carro options for ships that never had such, like the trincomalee, Belle poule, Renommée, Hermione, Constitution, Frigate, Hercules, Requin (maybe separate frigate l'Unité from the HMS Suprise).

wat.jpg most of the ships you mentioned carried carronades on their weatherdeck during their service period

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Indeed carros are too accurate at the moment.

I was able to fire a full broadside into a brig without almost no missing shots. They are even good for dimasting purposes.

 

Overall, Im seeing masts going down by broadside damage (zero raking). It should not happen so often. Right now, it is the rule on testbed.

Edited by Intrepido

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