Testbed Feedback - Battle UI, Localization, Patrols, Delivery quests

[jodgi]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

clan resources

What is that?

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

Now carronades are so powerfull, maybe you should remove maindeck carro options for ships that never had such, like the trincomalee, Belle poule, Renommée, Hermione, Constitution, Frigate, Hercules, Requin (maybe separate frigate l'Unité from the HMS Suprise) Keep them for topdeck except for the Indef, Essex & Cerb (maybe surprise)

 

Also double shot should probably not deal dmg equivalent to two ball shots, but instead just deal x2 structure dmg when hit penetrate

Edited February 11, 2019 by Baptiste Gallouédec

[DeRuyter]

2 hours ago, admin said:

Solving this creates the situation where ships of the line power will increase. 
74 will be a main workhorse as it was historically, and every player will no longer be afraid to take 74s for hunting. Frigates will have the role as well in tacking and chasing and sitting on the stern, as stern damage is now higher, more devastating. But they will have to do it with 100% precision as every mistake will send them to the bottom of the sea.

A few points based on testing and others' observations in this thread:

First I agree with the goals as stated by admin. However many people have brought up unintended gameplay consequences and a "realism domino effect" as it were which must be addressed. 

@Wraith brought up the mod meta possibility of a speed fit 1st rate or lineship catching and destroying frigates. So in essence who would sail 5th rates then. 

So with the new DM mods will need to be reviewed. Should we have a Victory made out of fir going 14.5 knts in game? IMO absolutely not. 

Could a line ship catch a frigate or small ship - yes if the wind was strong enough - but we don't have wind strength in game. (that's OT though). 

@Hethwill Suggests more realistic sailing profiles. Yes bring it in battle instance only. Square rigged ships did not sail less than 60 degrees to the wind. Tacking should be a slow process for the really large ships, ie; 1st rates. I have sailed on smaller square rigged ships that could tack in 5 minutes, schooners even less. Again as admin suggested the subject of another thread but still relevant to the overall combat model. 

Accuracy must be adjusted. With a more realistic damage model we need a more realistic accuracy model. That should also help with mast sniping. 

Dismasting is a bit too all or nothing. Too easy to take out a whole mast without first taking out some structure. If we see damage to structure or sides as also damaging standing rigging then it should be easier for spars to fall as damage accrues. For some reason we are not seeing the upper spars and topmast falling as much as we should be. @Sea Archer post on this subject and that of the damage results had merit and is worth looking into. Massive crew casualties as a abstraction of morale for example. @Wraith post on this subject and damage effects on rigging is similar and worth considering as well 

Line ships did travel alone on occasion 74 ships in particular as admin noted. Often they were travelling to a station rather than hunting but in the Caribbean you did see a squadron lead by a single 74 or 64 for example. The 74 being found to be a very cost effective ship that could be used in a variety of roles. However it did not replace frigates and 6th rates (sloops) as the eyes of the fleet, convoy escorts and raiders. We need to find a way to keep these roles alive in NA. 

Lastly @Portuguese Privateer I also tested 6th and 7th rates. One standout was with carros - example Rattlesnake with carros vs. Pickle 4 hull hits and Pickle in shock. Although at close range carros should hit small ships hard. Overall the results are less extreme than with the larger ships. 

BTW - still getting hieroglyphs after starting boarding. Not every time though. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Baptiste Gallouédec said:

Now carronades are so powerfull, maybe you should remove maindeck carro options for ships that never had such, like the trincomalee, Belle poule, Renommée, Hermione, Constitution, Frigate, Hercules, Requin (maybe separate frigate l'Unité from the HMS Suprise).

wat.jpg most of the ships you mentioned carried carronades on their weatherdeck during their service period

[van der Clam]

Masts should not go down simply because a hull side is 0 HP nor simply because the structure has reached a certain minimum HP. Dismasting the top sections should be accomplished only by good aim at masts, or by chain damage to rigging, but even then the bottom section should not go down unless ball is fired through the hull at it. I believe it will be tweaked just fine soon enough.

[z4ys]

35 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Indeed carros are too accurate at the moment.

I was able to fire a full broadside into a brig without almost no missing shots. They are even good for dimasting purposes.

 

Overall, Im seeing mast going down by broadside damage (zero raking). It should happen so often. Right now, it is the rule on testbed.

Do we see masts falling due to broadside dmg that often because people like to overpower their prey or because its really to high?

[Marquês do Bonfim]

I haven't shot a single mast off on a frigate yet, I've been sailing around on a Pirate Frigate, fought some 6th rate, 5th rate and didn't drop one single mast yet. Now, when I sailed the Victory for the first time, one broadside that I gave on a Wasa, his masts went down like falling trees, but that was because of the height I was shooting at, some of the cannonballs were actually penetrating even further and hitting the masts, so yeah, it is possible and in some cases they are really extreme, but it's not like every single broadside you will drop a mast like it was nothing. 

That video that I recorded fighting against an Ingermanland on a Trincomalee, he actually shot my mast off.

 

Edited February 11, 2019 by Portuguese Privateer

[LeBoiteux]

1 hour ago, Wyy said:

most of the ships you mentioned carried carronades on their weatherdeck during their service period

La Belle Poule, La Renommée, L'Hermione,  Le Requin, L'Unité never carried carronades, according to threedecks.org and to the fact that French navy introduced caronades only in 1795 (1780 for the RN ?).

About the other ships, I do not know.

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

2 hours ago, Wyy said:

wat.jpg most of the ships you mentioned carried carronades on their weatherdeck during their service period

I said remove from main gundeck, not from weather decks: leda-class frigates (trincomalee) had 18lb cannon + carro on weatherdeck, but never had full carro loadout that's what i mean.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Baptiste Gallouédec

[Marquês do Bonfim]

18pd gundeck, 12pd weather deck and 6pd bow chasers. I could've used 32pd carros, 24pd carros and 24pd carros bow chasers but I didn't have them as redeemables.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Portuguese Privateer

[Marquês do Bonfim]

Finally was able to test out the new Economy~Delivery missions and I gotta say, it's something. We could improve those by giving XP and Doubloons as rewards, since the player will be sailing a lot to do these deliveries, take people to certain places, specially if the destination is too much distant from your own location, that would significantly give more purpose for those missions as they are more convenient and peaceful to do. 

Another suggestion that would make it; Trade Goods delivery mission. How does it work? Simple. You open your journal/admiralty missions, go to economy and there would be; Passenger Delivery, Letter Delivery, Demand.

Under 'Demand', there would be the description and localization of the demand, simply by saying:

Merchand Demand Mission

Supply the demand to the required destination. Mission will fail if the goods is lost or delivered by another player.

 

Demand: 5x Cuban Tobacco

Destination: Sant Iago

Deadline: 18h 57m

Your Rewards

2,900 Doubloons

900xp

 

Something like that.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Portuguese Privateer

[Marquês do Bonfim]

Some Ideas:

Rescue Mission

If you belong to a Nation (Pirate doesn't count), this type of mission would appear from time to time on your Admiralty Missions.

Rescue mission would sometimes be something like:

Go to 'destination' and engage the enemy target. Your objective is to rescue 'person_name' from the pirates. Do not sink the ship before rescuing this person.

You're free to engage and approach as you wish. Mission will fail in case 'person_name' dies.

Go to the destination marked on your map with a cross.

Last seen location was near 'random location'.

Deadline: Max 3 hours

 

Your Rewards

3000 Doubloons

Mission Chest

 

After boarding the enemy ship, in the hold you will see the item (kinda similar to the one used on the Passenger Delivery) and you can put it in your own hold. After doing so, you will need to bring that item to the capital of your nation and deliver it to the Admiralty.

 

Ransom Mission (for Pirates)

 

Ransom Mission would be exactly the same as rescue mission, but instead of engaging a pirate ship, you would be engaging a naval ship (nation would be random). After boarding it and claiming the passenger item from that ship's hold, you will need to bring it back to Mortimer Town or any Pirate town and deliver the mission.

Same last seen location was near 'random location'.

Deadline: Max 3 hours

 

Your Rewards

3000 Doubloons

Mission Chest

[van der Clam]

I'd suggest delivery/trading missions should offer reals or doubloons. As is, dbls are too easy to get, while reals..not so much.

[Sir Texas Sir]

4 hours ago, Baptiste Gallouédec said:

Now carronades are so powerfull, maybe you should remove maindeck carro options for ships that never had such, like the trincomalee, Belle poule, Renommée, Hermione, Constitution, Frigate, Hercules, Requin (maybe separate frigate l'Unité from the HMS Suprise) Keep them for topdeck except for the Indef, Essex & Cerb (maybe surprise)

 

Also double shot should probably not deal dmg equivalent to two ball shots, but instead just deal x2 structure dmg when hit penetrate

Keep your distance and those Carros won't mean crap.  I was destroying ships with full broad side sand still bouncing shots from lower tier ships in some battles if there is a big difference between ships (Vict ves 5/6th rates).  

1 hour ago, Intrepido said:

My experiences were with full carro fitted trincomalee so I strongly believe it is their high damage which causes those masts to fall so easily.

And what where you firing at that you where demasting ships ever time?  Sounds like you where fighting 6th rates to me.   As that was the only time I seen ships drop mast.  Well that and when Surprises took a full broad side or rack from my Victory.

[van der Clam]

 

First encountered a Navy Brig with my Aga and single shot it to absolutely nothing. And just as seen on yt, once HP goes below 25% it's an insta-dismast. No good. IMO, dismasting should not be automatically tied to a hp percent. This also happened to my Vic against 3 Pavel. My masts were never shot, but the moment that side lost 75% HP my foremast instantly dismasted. In that same battle, I dismasted 2 masts on one Pavel with only 1 point blank broadside, and the other 2 masts died from about 500m. Somethings not right...but I'm sure tweaks will help.

Just for visual references...

• Agamemnon
  • Build Type: LO/WO
  • Upgrades: Navy Structure Refit, Bow Figure Lion, Basic Carpentry Tools
  • Loadout: 24 lb Longs on bottom and 18 lb middle decks, 9lb mediums on top
• Bellona
  • unknown, altho I think it had mediums (standard for ai?)

Tagged it facing almost 95% into the wind about 100m distance whilst my broadside was perpendicular so I was firing straight down the bow. Fired a full salvo of Double Ball at mainmast and instantly dismasted its foremast. Somehow it was able to tack into the wind with main and mizzen mast only and wrecked my port side. So I moved around down its bow again and took out its mainmast. At this point it still was able to out maneuver me to get a good broadside on my starboard as I turned hard to port to get my starboard to it so I can position on its stern. I nearly died as you can see in the image. As I past I wrecked its starboard down 1 notch with a full salvo of Double Charge. Then I camped its stern and fired 3 full broadsides to get the structure to 1 and a sliver notch left, finally removing its mizzen mast. Of course the wind shifted and allowed the dismasted unicorned Ballona to turn with the wind forcing me to move again to get on its stern. Because of my angle and distance (didn't want to reverse with the wind and expose my near zero broadside to an ai that can pen at 90 degree angles), I couldn't get full broadsides on it so I fired single shot. Its structure would never go below that last notch, even tho I landed every shot repeatedly on mark. Structure stayed at 1 notch...but it was taking on water and eventually sunk. 

Image shows 1 repair popped that barely did anything after receiving only 2 broadsides (one on each side) and from the stern cannon that never broke. My take on this update...I like, but it certainly needs tweaked. Just give all ships about 3x more structure HP, about 2x more hull structure HP, and about 2x more bottom mast section HP. The damage done in 1 single broadside should take 3 to 4.

 

 

This shows the distance that I dismasted a Pavel in my Vic

Edited February 12, 2019 by van der Decken
Added most recent battle Vic vs Pavel

[admin]

1 hour ago, van der Decken said:

 

First encountered a Navy Brig with my Aga and single shot it to absolutely nothing. And just as seen on yt, once HP goes below 25% it's an insta-dismast. No good. IMO, dismasting should not be automatically tied to a hp percent.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

This shows the distance that I dismasted a Pavel in my Vic

Where do you get this info? Demasting is NOT tied to HP percent (planking) its not related at all. 
Low structure hits can send damage to masts when its low. Because overall structure of the ship no longer holds rig together well. But its still mast HP and you need to get in a good volume of damage if masts are thick.

[van der Clam]

22 minutes ago, admin said:

Where do you get this info? Demasting is NOT tied to HP percent (planking) its not related at all. 
Low structure hits can send damage to masts when its low. Because overall structure of the ship no longer holds rig together well. But its still mast HP and you need to get in a good volume of damage if masts are thick.

Perhaps I should've said ",,,once the structure bar (structure hp?) reaches 25% it seems to be an instant dismast." I say this because nearly every yt video and every battle I've done it seems exactly this way. The very moment the structure bar hits that last notch the mast will fall....even if the masts were never shot at. To me, this makes no sense. I should take some rigging damage (about 50% sail hp) before a mast can just fall over. If I had a model ship with accurate rigging, I would break the mast in the hull and see if it falls over. I'd test it on single decked and on multiple decked ships. I would think a multi-deck ship would be able to hold the mast in place with no rigging damage. Just imho.

[admin]

35 minutes ago, van der Decken said:

 I would think a multi-deck ship would be able to hold the mast in place with no rigging damage. Just imho.

Ship structure is a parameter that shows overall hull integrity and at lower hull integrity ship begins to feel unwell and slowly disintegrate,.
Masts connect to keel and have a lot of supporting elements inside the hull and rely not only on rig but also on ship structure integrity
As a result if you shoot at structure you lower the integrity of all supporting elements inside the hull, and at very low numbers more and more damage will be passed onto masts, but its not random - you need 1000 damage to be passed onto masts to destroy the 1000 hp lower section. 

Thus to your comment - should multi deck ship be able to hold the mast in place with no rigging damage. No. It can lose masts if they are damaged elsewhere, or when their support has disintegrated.
Multi deck ship can lose a mast even at very strong winds if they dont take top sails in time (no rigging damage - just wind pressure)

This updated system works incredibly well in annoying cases when you see the enemy has low structure but still zooms off into the horizon. 
In the new damage model captain should be very careful and start repairing structure early if he does not want to be demasted 
 

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

So this is my major worry outside the concerns of ships of the lines dominating open world once again @admin.

My concern is from my own experience on the testbed and reading from the posts presented here today is the quickness of someone being demasted during a battle. Whomever gets demasts their opponents first tends to win especially when taking out the lower mast. It devastates mobility and it is hard to repair since your opponent, if they have a brain, will not let up and give you the chance to repair much in the slightest. It can also can really take much enjoyment out of a battle making what could have been a very enjoyable brawl into a fight over in minutes. Now I am not saying you should not implement this mechanic of destroying masts with broadsides. I love it, but it needs to remain to where battles are not just a fest of demasting much like chain spam was before the ammo limits were introduced. I believe that to be much of our concerns at this moment. 

[van der Clam]

6 minutes ago, admin said:

Multi deck ship can lose a mast even at very strong winds if they dont take top sails in time (no rigging damage - just wind pressure)

This updated system works incredibly well in annoying cases when you see the enemy has low structure but still zooms off into the horizon. 
In the new damage model captain should be very careful and start repairing structure early if he does not want to be demasted 

I will have to do some research to find info about any multi-decked ship losing an entire mast due to wind damage. I know absolutely that a top mast and yards can snap by storms, but never read of the bottom section snapping, except in unrated ships. 

I agree the update is nice, however, I think because of the inability to bounce shots at most angles that we need a % increase to the 2 bars and to bottom mast sections. I dismasted a Bellona in my Vic with only 2 ill-angled broadsides. My humble suggestion is to make it take at least thrice as long. I don't want this game to turn into 5 minute battles....if I wanted that, I could just go play WoT or WoW....and I can't stand that game any more. I look forward to the tweaks.

[admin]

On 2/10/2019 at 3:54 PM, admin said:

Mast thickness is not updated on the test bed (uses old parameters) and hull as well. It will be hotfixed

 

41 minutes ago, Velhelm Von Marrius said:

So this is my major worry outside the concerns of ships of the lines dominating open world once again @admin.

My concern is from my own experience on the testbed and reading from the posts presented here today is the quickness of someone being demasted during a battle. 

 

[Sea Archer]

I would prefer damage mechanics that allow 20 - 30 min fights without repairs.

If repairs are necessary at all they should be a bit of rigging repair and plugging holes below the waterline. 

[huliotkd]

1 hour ago, admin said:

Thus to your comment - should multi deck ship be able to hold the mast in place with no rigging damage. No. It can lose masts if they are damaged elsewhere, or when their support has disintegrated.
Multi deck ship can lose a mast even at very strong winds if they dont take top sails in time (no rigging damage - just wind pressure)

Correct!!!! masts was and are really weak without rigging and structure at mast's base

1 hour ago, van der Decken said:

I don't want this game to turn into 5 minute battles....

Wrong! real old battles finish in less than 5 minutes...the big amount of time was needed to get in position to fire and closer to enemy to board, but then...1 broadside and the battle was over...sometimes some captains surrended before 1st shot fired...

Edited February 12, 2019 by huliotkd

[van der Clam]

45 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Wasnt hotfixed yesterday? I read something about a monday hotfix.

I thought so as well, hence why I tested today.

My apologies @admin.

[admin]

40 minutes ago, Sea Archer said:

I would prefer damage mechanics that allow 20 - 30 min fights without repairs.

If repairs are necessary at all they should be a bit of rigging repair and plugging holes below the waterline. 

20-30 mins means at least 30 broadsides on the heaviest ship, with turning this number will go up to maybe 40-50 broadsides if you turn well (and opponent lets you).
If you think in terms of broadsides then the 30 min battle will be considered long even by historical standards. 

In short - i am not sure about 40-50 broadsides for 1 duel.