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Calling for help...….This is a big problem for me and my immersion.  I would love to see no communication with OW from a battle instance.  Nothing you can do about Discord and TS of course.

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9 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Calling for help...….This is a big problem for me and my immersion.  I would love to see no communication with OW from a battle instance.  Nothing you can do about Discord and TS of course.

For me too communication should be limited even more... and it could help immersion.

On the other hand, today, there're so many ways to communicate (Discord and TS first and foremost) that limiting ingame communication would hurt... solo casuals who are already the most beaten category in game...

So, for game sake (and - casual - player retention), better less immersion and simpler ways for them to get help... that more often than not will arrive anyway too late, aside if attacked close to high traffic areas (like Capitols - and they get R area ROE - and main FFA hubs like LT or Tumbado).

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8 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Calling for help...….This is a big problem for me and my immersion.  I would love to see no communication with OW from a battle instance.  Nothing you can do about Discord and TS of course.

Yeah! The good old days when a Frigate arrives with news of the new war with whoever, arrives, before the brig arrives with the news of the peace after the old war!

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10 hours ago, admin said:

Ganking is not discouraged by battles open for the weaker side for the following reasons.
1) 2 min free entry for all still exists
2) Once 2 mins passes the system checks the BR in battle and keeps it open for the weaker side. 
3) Battle closes when BR of the weaker side exceeds the attacking side.

Thus organized group will still have an initial advantage. 
But if the battle is located on popular routes the battle will escalate which means the following
Weaker side will have some hope
Other players can stumble upon this battle when sailing and join to help
Other players can be called on in chat and sail to help

I see no negatives at all with this system. It will increase pvp and will reduce ganking (at least at some locations)

This system leads to the BR balance discussion. Here is a question - Should a 5/5 ship fully equipped with the best mods have a higher BR than the same ship with none?

Would it make sense modify BR for installed mods? May lead to a fairer calculation for either side.

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2 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

So if you wanted to bring 100 cannons on your ship, because they fit into hold and use them all in battle, that's unrealistic. You can bring whatever you want but in battle you only get that certain amount of cannons/repairs to use.

^ I know right! you can carry at least 20 long 6 pd on your t lynx but you dare not use them :LULW:

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Coming back to the topic, small ships like a xebec or the prince should be crippled by one half aimed broadside  of a ship of the line.

So please bring in a somehow more historical relation between firepower and ship structure/damage.

This would result in one attack of those, a second wouldn't be possible at all.

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3 minutes ago, DeRuyter said:

Ganking is not discouraged by battles open for the weaker side for the following reasons.
1) 2 min free entry for all still exists
2) Once 2 mins passes the system checks the BR in battle and keeps it open for the weaker side. 
3) Battle closes when BR of the weaker side exceeds the attacking side.

But the attacker is not allowed to leave the battle (according to the OP).  Why would anyone initiate a battle when he knows he's going to get outnumbered?  Players start battles that they think they can win.  I tag a frigate in my Herc.  My BR is higher.  After 15 minutes of good fighting, with both of us damaged, someone joins on his side in an Endy.  How is this "good" PVP?  All I see is an easy victory for the Endy Captain and me swearing that i'll never start another battle...just hang around and wait to jump into someone else's fight.

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40 minutes ago, DeRuyter said:

This system leads to the BR balance discussion. Here is a question - Should a 5/5 ship fully equipped with the best mods have a higher BR than the same ship with none?

Would it make sense modify BR for installed mods? May lead to a fairer calculation for either side.

Perhaps we should also modify BR based on the experience and skill of the captain, implementing some kind of ELO type system where rewards and mechanics are enhanced or downgraded depending on the combination of the ship/gear/skill of the players involved in a fight?

Edited by Wraith

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1 hour ago, Angus MacDuff said:

But the attacker is not allowed to leave the battle (according to the OP).  Why would anyone initiate a battle when he knows he's going to get outnumbered?  Players start battles that they think they can win.  I tag a frigate in my Herc.  My BR is higher.  After 15 minutes of good fighting, with both of us damaged, someone joins on his side in an Endy.  How is this "good" PVP?  All I see is an easy victory for the Endy Captain and me swearing that i'll never start another battle...just hang around and wait to jump into someone else's fight.

Good point. Battles should close at some point imo. Its not fun to have the battle drastically change 15-20 minutes into the battle if the battle is somewhat close.

I am also curious as to what the BR difference will need to be in order allow someone else to join. For example, if its 5th rate vs 5th rate, should we consider that an even battle (regardless of BR) and keep it closed? I vote yes.

Surprise vs. Trinco can be considered an uneven battle BUT add another 5th rate on the surprise's team and its definitely uneven for the Trinco

Edited by Capn Rocko
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The range of 5th rates is quite wide. For fair fights they should be rates light, medium and heavy 5th, according to the size of guns they can carry.

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There is a 50/50 chance that the sail coming over the horizon is friendly, those odds are the same on both sides. The problems start when it is a squadron or a more powerful ship coming at you. That is the point where every Captain decides whether he has time to finish off his opponent, or, if his ship is still sound, fight defensively and disengage.

This is  why it is important that a Captain, whether he starts the fight or not has a reasonable chance to disengage, even the Articles of War recognised that, they had to, for a mans life depended on their interpretation.

Fighting defensively to disengage is a world away from entering a battle to waste time for no purpose, outwardly, the two may look similar, and, if my opponent suddenly breaks and runs, I have no way of knowing his reasons for doing so unless I know help is imminent, or, I have damaged his ship to the point where running, repairing, then disengaging  is the only choice left to him. In that situation the onus is on him to preserve his ship and on me to stop him from doing so.

Now if a Captain starts a battle to run the clock down on another battle, preventing a player joining, then,that i think is legitimate, but not if the sole reason is to prevent another Captain's participation in a battle and then run, It is true that sometimes when a Captain of a smaller ship realises that he has taken on more than he can handle he would fire a broadside pour le Pavilon then, disengages he still ran a high risk that if the enemy did not give chase and sink him, his own Admiralty may hang him!

Sometimes it is better to apply regulation over mechanics, while regulation is open to interpretation a mechanic cannot distinguish motivation and worse restricts freedom of action that would otherwise be acceptable. 

 

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15 hours ago, Bumsebiene said:

I love the idea to rework the battle system. To join the weaker side will increase PVP but i think you have to do more. Nobody who is ganked by several people have the time to write in Nationchat or something. There must be a button to Call help and it should be appeared on the Map and in the Chat for other players..

Like this :

rIs0khT.jpg

Great idea !!!

This combined with the "Battle is open for the lower BR side" will lead to massive PVP battles !!!

...and even better, the usual ganking Fleets would take advantage of such a system because "their" nation will also be on the receiving end sometimes and by such a message, they will quickly find their targets !!!

...instead of searching the Open Seas for hours and then gank the poor lonely Trader because he is the only one, they found

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Great idea to spend all the time sitting in port, teleport to closest spot and sail to GPS location 🍻

( seas were empty when we had similar options - why sail when one can just wait - it led to even less conflict )

Beware what you wish for... for it might become true... just not the way you envision it.

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17 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

get over it. This is the "battle system core ruleset discussion" and I'm discussing battle core ruleset, scrub.

Edited 16 hours ago by Slim McSauce

How about just playing the game and gain experience? You could add a second bookslot for your Constitution Classic. If you reache all five, the ship feels different and you will not need so many gear slots any more.

Edited by Sir Loorkon

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23 hours ago, staun said:

But isent that the system in patrolezone. Don’t get me wrong, I am fine with the RoE in patrolezone, But lets be honnest. There is multi thread and post abouth broken RoE in patrolezone. 

Because Circle of Death prevents fleeing in PZ most times... THATS the reason why people are avoiding PZ because they fear to get stucked in a situation that cant be solved anymore !!

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14 minutes ago, Sir Max Magic said:

Because Circle of Death prevents fleeing in PZ most times... THATS the reason why people are avoiding PZ because they fear to get stucked in a situation that cant be solved anymore !!

Thats why I wrote if we wanted the same mechanic in OW.

On a side note, lots of ppl actually goes to the patrole zone. I am pretty sure if admin made a stat over fights, my guess  is Nassau and Deadman when they are on, can compete with the total fights in OW on the rest of the map. So ppl do go to patrolezones.

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22 minutes ago, Sir Max Magic said:

Because Circle of Death prevents fleeing in PZ most times... THATS the reason why people are avoiding PZ because they fear to get stucked in a situation that cant be solved anymore !!

 

8 minutes ago, staun said:

... lots of ppl actually goes to the patrole zone. I am pretty sure if admin made a stat over fights, my guess  is Nassau and Deadman when they are on, can compete with the total fights in OW on the rest of the map. So ppl do go to patrolezones.

 

As usual people adapts.

Organized teams form up groups that (if possible) almost cap PZ BR, so being sure to never fight outnumbered. Coupled with coordination and purpose fitted ships (the inner no-sense in any other situation of 11ish kts LO/WO+Kiritimati carro Surprises, just to say) they work to get best odds for themselves (rightfully I'd add).

Now, getting back to topic, imagine the same ROE all over OW.

Organized groups will wander around with bait ship, tagger and a bunch of purpose fitted ships, moreover using a mix BR ships allowing to them to

- be tagged

- tag

- fight with best odds (joining all, some,  reinforcing or screening out help) depending on the prey found.

So bigger veteran groups will (faster) adapt, they will have the means and with knowledge and experience will exploit the most from the eventual new ROE, on the skin of?

New players and brave lone raiders, who for a while, will keep tagging potential targets. And after losing few ships, lone raiders will rage quit like new players.

This is, IMO, most probable outcome of such ROE.

Not to say, again, that "same BR" has NOTHING to do with "fair" battle.

Same BR can be a gold ship with some millions worth upgrades vs. a shop one, a 4000 hrs veteran vs. a 100 hrs (or less) noob, or even both.

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There was never a mention of Fair in the OP.

Only notion regarding fair is open to the weakest BR side.

Do not distort the initial notion.

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25 minutes ago, Chevalier du Ethuville said:

There was never a mention of Fair in the OP.

Only notion regarding fair is open to the weakest BR side.

Do not distort the initial notion.

So why tweaking more and more the ROE leaving battle open for the "weakest" side, BR wise, when BR has nothing (almost) to do with real battle value of the ship and the player on her?

Edited by Licinio Chiavari

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1 minute ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

So why tweaking more and more the ROE leaving battle open for the "weakest" side, BR wise, when BR has nothing (almost) to do with real battle value of the ship and the player on her?

Is warrant a test, as devs put it - they want it.

Circle no. Signalling, sure. I don't mind the equal fights. Rework of tag mechanic ? Absolutely. Dynamic BR, would be awesome.

and quoting a designer of wargames

"...Talk is cheap, lots of people will express vast enthusiasm for you to develop games they would like to play, and then never play. It takes an unlikely combination of factors to get a community going."

100% correct.

 

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46 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

So bigger veteran groups will (faster) adapt, they will have the means and with knowledge and experience will exploit the most from the eventual new ROE, on the skin of?

New players and brave lone raiders, who for a while, will keep tagging potential targets. And after losing few ships, lone raiders will rage quit like new players.

This is, IMO, most probable outcome of such ROE.

This is exactly what will happen.  I got hooked on this game because I had finally found something that I could play solo, and I've spent many happy hours solo hunting.  Taking away that ability will make my wife very happy.  Don't do that....

Edited by Angus MacDuff
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15 minutes ago, Chevalier du Ethuville said:

Is warrant a test, as devs put it - they want it.

Almost everything is warrant a test.

What I sincerely fear is hurting the player base now, when logged population is growing hitting highest pop seen in more than an year.

Moreover, granted so many issues (ship balance, mod balance,...) and other stuff under work (battle UI, trading patch,...) in our beloved game, is it really the case to touch probably the most sensitive matter in any sandbox ow pvp game (the RoE) granted so many critics and doubts about these proposals?

Edited by Licinio Chiavari

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More PvP. PvP is when you want it and when others want it. Game is very complex in OW ( lot's of rules ) and we humans "exploit" every corner of it ( aka. waste time to shut down opportunities ). Many strive to play as clean and honest as possible, others don't even know what that means anymore.

So, after many tests, devs have data we don't. They can link different pieces of different tests during different time frames together as they wish.

Plus is not a game for solo, but to play together.

If battle open for weak side is the way to put 2 players playing together, then that's good and outweighs the necessity of the solo player.

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Chevalier du Ethuville said:

Plus is not a game for solo, but to play together.

If battle open for weak side is the way to put 2 players playing together, then that's good and outweighs the necessity of the solo player.

Guess i'll have to find another game

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