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Sovereign

Cerberus & Renommee vs Surprise, Hercules and LRQ

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I have recently been playing a lot of shallow ships and found Cerberus and Renommee's performances really wanting among the major shallow vessels. Now this could of course simply be credited to my limited skill of using the ships properly but I rarely ever see other players using those ships ( usually a clear indicator of them underperforming in relation to other available vessels but in this case no doubt swayed by the free DLC ship availability ). Even leaving DLC ships aside, why would I sail Cerberus or Renomme over Surprise? Less alpha damage and DPS, only 2 chasers compared to 6 on Herc and Surprise and significantly less turnrate than Herc. All that for minor hp and armor advantage that are mainly useful, if you stay at range downwind, because Herc, Surp and especially LRQ control upwind completely and can easily escape at any point in time.

I think the Renommee, renown ( pun intended ) for being the fastest ship of her time, could use a minor speed and maybe hp buff combined with a turnrate nerf. This could turn the Renomme into a great support ship and valid choice for port battles.

As for the Cerberus I have no idea.

What do you think? Has anyone found a use for those ships yet?

Some good read on Renomme: http://larenommeeship.com/ 

 

Edited by Sovereign
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Renomee and cerberus are good brawlers and boarders with better masts, turn speed/rate and similar broadside to a surprise / hercules.

surprise and herc are better sailor between 0 and 120, renomee and cerb are on the remaining points.

 

if anything, herc knowledge should be increased to similar xp points as 5th rate 8k => 9k

and either herc sailing crew should be increased, or renomee, cerberus and surprise should have less crew required on sails to ease the use of marines with no impact on the gunnery side.

 

Edited by RKY

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12 minutes ago, RKY said:

Renomee and cerberus are good brawlers and boarders with better masts, turn speed/rate and similar broadside to a surprise / hercules.

How is cerberus a good boarder with 195 crew compared to 200, 240 and 250?

The Renommee has like 1 more mast thickness than Surprise ( iirc ) but the ultimate winner is Hercules due to the smallest mast hitboxes combined with the highest calibre, highest penetration guns.

Renommee turns slighty better than Surprise, while both are completely outmatched by Hercules.

18 minutes ago, RKY said:

and either herc sailing crew should be increased, or renomee, cerberus and surprise should have less crew required on sails to ease the use of marines with no impact on the gunnery side.

Yeah, agreed.

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Test all three at battle sails. The canvas forces at Full and at Battle make them very distinct. With the stays collected at Slow there's also another level of distinction. Is not linear but alas NA is always battling at Full... -.-

Regarding boarding, I suppose you all talking about immediate boarding and not usage of the ship to work the grape and then grapple the enemy when the time comes.

For example, if we have the roll calls and crew numbers of the ships in their RL careers, should the game alter these values to "what if" values just for the sake of gameplay balance ?

I actually see the opposite. Changes in rigging state should increase/decrease crew needed, take time, and get in the way of gunnery up in the open decks.

But don't mind me, i expect more realism than fictional balance.

 

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20 minutes ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

But don't mind me, i expect more realism than fictional balance.

Peronally I'd want the best balance possible while also giving ships their historical strengths and characteristics. For example no ship should be faster than Endymion and Renommee but they should pay for it with stats like turnrate or one-dimensional sailing profile. Perfect 100% historical accuracy isn't easily compitable with gameplay however. In my opinion the majority of ships ( as many as possible ) should be viable for their own niche and the rest simply dirt cheap.

I remember when Renommee was the speed queen with Rattlesnake and not having bow chasers and less guns total than other frigates ( except cerberus ) was actually a worthwhile tradeoff. With the new speeds and the speed cap she completely lost her historically accurate main characteristic - speed. So I really feel where you are coming from.

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All vessels - and this means more than not rigging type & cost - had their unique applications in regard of the trade of the captain ( fishing, trade of perishables, war, etc... ) overall strategy of the local forces / nation, and tactical application. Hence navies had a wide variety of options.

Speeds... is clear, and i voiced it several times, that i like it more authentic, meaning at gameplay balance level, the best recorded speed should be only attainable with a game model equipped with ALL modules, books and refits for speed. 

As speed translates also in the turn vector, and is not linear as sail forces are dynamic due to wind vector and yard position, i firmly believe it could add more distinction in handling characteristics, and not only in ultimate full chase speed.

I mean, looking at reality, cannon is cannon, but it is the wind and canvas and that arrangement that make a ship move and be able to fight. If all classes share the same arrangement, then yes, cannon becomes the predominant force, which in wind propulsion era wasn't really, at least everyday action against enemies.

Herc is out of envelope i think but i trust devs judgement to check that.

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renomee mast have more thickness, more sails hp, more hull hp, and hull is curved, making it easily bouce carro shots even on parallel course.

equip it with mediums and marines and enjoy.

 

as for cerberus it is a good brawler and good boarder against 6th rate shalow ships.

Edited by RKY

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6 minutes ago, RKY said:

hull is curved, making it easily bouce carro shots even on parallel course.

the high board isn't, same as belle. 😎 but yes, those ships were built that way and they look nice that way and they should retain construction parameters.

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Hercules is the fastest ship in the game by .5 knots.
Renomee Could use a bow chaser or two
Cerberus needs swivel guns to
balance her out, she has no deck guns.
and poor crew compliment, easily boarded.

Edited by Slim McSauce

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Just now, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Did La Renomee have bow chasers even IRL ? Or does the fore allows even the moving of guns there, any gun ports there ?

I'm not sure but I cite the Essex's lack of bow chasers as historical juxtaposition, and as a back up I draw the Lynx's lack of 12pd guns and swivels.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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Talking about Renomee, not others. She has innate Control and she can make good use of it, same as the lynx and bigger brother. That's the tradeoff and IMO a very good one.

Technical limitations do not allow for complete mix decks, we know that since long ago, so design decision was to have decks gun complement interval the most correct as possible given the limitations of the software.

Remember that most of the times in non navy issued vessels they equipped with what they could and what was available, a couple 12's, and mix of 6 and smaller and a carronade for musket ball sack just in case of board action. Game cannot simulate all, sadly.

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Control will never be as good as a bow cannon that can reach out and touch for thousands of meters, as well as help with chaining sails/graping. Also the prince already does the whole longs/carros on the same deck deal. Pretty sure that was solved with unity 5

Edited by Slim McSauce

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Is not the same deck :) It has a deck 2 height.

But you touch a nice point on the other hand... tag damage. a simple touch of a 2 pounder ball is enough to keep anyone in play.

Obviously the majority of small scale tactical encounters in the OW are chase scenarios setup by the tag from the OW, but eventually ruled by the ping tag to keep target in battle.

And this is true for the 3 ships presented. Renomee will rely on control, same as the Cerb. The commanders might be more aware of what they can achieve given they are ruled at 750m, while the Surprise ( and the Herc for all effects ) will rely on continuous tags even if at extreme gun range ( with Control perk being an additional option ).

Makes them different in the approach on the OW tag, i don't dislike it. Does it means the Surprise/Herc gets more opportunities of a decisive engagement ( one side strikes colours ) than the Ren/Cerb pair ? Yeah, they do at this point and I am not sure if increasing the threshold of tag damage necessary is the way to do it.

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The best way to do it would be to impose some kind of restriction for redeeming DLC ships but that seems out of the question.
All shallow water ships except for maybe the Niagara need to be buffed up accordingly (like admin said they would)
Swivels is the best way to do it.

Edited by Slim McSauce

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3 hours ago, Sovereign said:

Peronally I'd want the best balance possible while also giving ships their historical strengths and characteristics. For example no ship should be faster than Endymion and Renommee but they should pay for it with stats like turnrate or one-dimensional sailing profile. Perfect 100% historical accuracy isn't easily compitable with gameplay however. In my opinion the majority of ships ( as many as possible ) should be viable for their own niche and the rest simply dirt cheap.

I remember when Renommee was the speed queen with Rattlesnake and not having bow chasers and less guns total than other frigates ( except cerberus ) was actually a worthwhile tradeoff. With the new speeds and the speed cap she completely lost her historically accurate main characteristic - speed. So I really feel where you are coming from.

It seems that La Renommée was indeed reported by the British as being fast, but also as being very maneuverable...

I haven't got my hand on these original reports though. Maybe they are also partially copied in R. Gardiner's First Frigates. I don 't know. 

1 hour ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Did La Renomee have bow chasers even IRL ? Or does the fore allows even the moving of guns there, any gun ports there ?

Current in-game setup is the standard historical armament of the French RL 8-pdr frigates : 26 guns on the GD and 4 on the WD (= 30 guns).

The addition of 2 guns on the fc of La Renommée is conceivable according to Boudriot. Not strictly speaking bow chasers, but standard guns on the fc that could have been used as chasers during tacking. This addition is not the option he for one chose in his monograph.

PS :about In-game Renommée, the only leeway in terms of armament is the caliber of the 4 guns of the WD : 6-pdr, instead of RL 4-pdr, a standard leeway in this game, making this frigate of 1744 a bit more Trafalgar-ish.

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54 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

All shallow water ships except for maybe the Niagara need to be buffed up accordingly

They already have been, by a large margin ( maybe too much in some cases ), and on top of that the 6 pounders also been.

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45 minutes ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

They already have been, by a large margin ( maybe too much in some cases ), and on top of that the 6 pounders also been.

which are about to be nerfed again with the cannon weight damage update. Which hey may fix some stuff but we still should be employing swivel guns, it's a shame to have these assets and not use them.

Edited by Slim McSauce

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 I'd still like to see server stats of every Hercules battle: how many sold, # of battles, win rate, survival rate, etc. Would be nice to see this in game, maybe even seeing in Combat News which ship each captain was sailing/sinking.

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12 minutes ago, van der Decken said:

 I'd still like to see server stats of every Hercules battle: how many sold, # of battles, win rate, survival rate, etc. 

A clue.

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We always seem to get into a discussion about one ship being better than another and how to make them even.  Lets just accept the fact that some ships are better than others and some have disadvantages and leave them alone.  We can't continuously tweak individual ships in order to please everyone.

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17 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

We always seem to get into a discussion about one ship being better than another and how to make them even.  Lets just accept the fact that some ships are better than others and some have disadvantages and leave them alone.  We can't continuously tweak individual ships in order to please everyone.

It's always been this way, but it got worse when the devs started putting in overtly OP ships into the game with little regard to balance. First it was the Wasa which took all frigates out of the game,  now it's herc which broke the ceiling for shallow waters being the only 5th rate allowed in. The first 5th rate in shallow waters was DLC that's pretty bad.

Ships within the same class should be pretty even, just different with different strengths. But the Herc being classed with 6th rates is just ridiculous. Not only does it have huge firepower, it's extremely nimble and one of the fastest downwind sailers in the game. On top of all that you get a free one every day. What were the devs thinking when they added this ship? Of course it's OP.

And then you have all the ships that are hardly used that aren't ever buffed up and left to irrelevancy, I won't even get into that now.

Edited by Slim McSauce

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On 1/12/2019 at 3:48 PM, Slim McSauce said:

... and one of the fastest downwind sailers in the game.

In truth, Hercules has a very high base speed but strongest edge is close hauling.

In same 'category' Renomee is far better downwinder.

Hercules can catch up downwind thanks to high base speed coupled with the damned 4 bow chasers.

Edited by Licinio Chiavari

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Just now, Licinio Chiavari said:

In truth, Hercules has a very high base speed but strongest edge is close hauling.

In same 'category' Renomee is far better downwinder.

Renomee is a Corvette, Hercules is more of a frigate with high turn speed, while Renomee is built for straight speed.
The hercules should not have higher base speed than the Renomee. The Renomee doesn't how bow chasers and you're forced to go infront of your target, which takes a lot more skill than sitting behind him.

Edited by Slim McSauce

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