Join Time/Space Solution

[Hethwill]

One of the good things about the 2 minute timer is - and please look to it in the perspective of everyone, the solo pver, the group player pvper, the rvr guy, the raider, etc...

- sailing from draw range distance into the battle takes, on average, 2 minutes.

This means that by starting a battle and checking horizon one sees no sails means no one saw me as well. Means they have to be within draw range to even see the battle starting. Means I am safe for the duration of the battle in most cases and I know exactly what I saw is what i get in battle and not some squadron 20 minutes OW sail away that can find my location by usage of F11 debug information.

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

One of the good things about the 2 minute timer is - and please look to it in the perspective of everyone, the solo pver, the group player pvper, the rvr guy, the raider, etc...

- sailing from draw range distance into the battle takes, on average, 2 minutes.

This means that by starting a battle and checking horizon one sees no sails means no one saw me as well. Means they have to be within draw range to even see the battle starting. Means I am safe for the duration of the battle in most cases and I know exactly what I saw is what i get in battle and not some squadron 20 minutes OW sail away that can find my location by usage of F11 debug information.

Except in the case where someone spotted you fighting on the location marked by the cross swords which then proceeded to close. Those people have already spotted you before the battle closed and should be able to join.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Hethwill]

Just now, Slim McSauce said:

Except in the case where someone spotted you fighting on the location marked by the cross swords which then proceeded to close. Those people have already spotted you before the battle closed and should be able to join.

Really depends on the wind but the norm is that, if you are in draw distance you are able to join the battles with the exception of the join circle to be dead on the wind.

- there's some technicalities with the join areas that are intimately linked to having land in battles, can't remember exactly which.

What many seem to forget is that many old tests were done without land in battles... which for me particularly was one of the best upgrades to the game... ever.

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Really depends on the wind but the norm is that, if you are in draw distance you are able to join the battles with the exception of the join circle to be dead on the wind.

- there's some technicalities with the join areas that are intimately linked to having land in battles, can't remember exactly which.

What many seem to forget is that many old tests were done without land in battles... which for me particularly was one of the best upgrades to the game... ever.

No what I mean is if you just barely peaked the horizon as the battle closed, but managed to click on the crossswords before they dissapear, that should grant you the final possible access to the battle, as long as you don't click away.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Hethwill]

Then you should join exactly where you are when you click the swords, at extreme range and have to sail 1:1 scale to reach it.

Fair for everyone, for you and for the guys already in battle.

( this was done already long ago btw but good enough with me )

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Then you should join exactly where you are when you click the swords, at extreme range and have to sail 1:1 scale to reach it.

Fair for everyone, for you and for the guys already in battle.

( this was done already long ago btw but good enough with me )

You're asking a lot. The join timer was already cut by a third without anyone really asking. Letting people who were quick enough to spot and click the swords before they vanished to join is fair and the least you could do. No one likes a battle closing right before they get to the circle, even though they're right there and clearly saw where the battle was.

If you never saw the crosswords, no problem, but if you did and had it clicked then you should be able to join without hard-lock out.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Hethwill]

I'm asking nothing but correct application of known distances to a location without resorting to to sci-fi warp speed to cover the same distance.

Is not fair for the guy wanting to enter, but in most cases will be fair for the guys inside the battle already.

Because as a ganker i simply will send a tagger, and the rest of the squadron will still be able to join and make your life miserable and you have no idea they were there, beyond draw range but then they could come, in 5 seconds, to be able to click the swords and able to spawn in the battle at shot range from you.

But whatever... getting tired. Just do whatever you think it is best for everyone and not only for your own belly button.

 

[Sir Loorkon]

The most important point is to avoid easy abusebal mechanics. If you leave the habour or lock in you should not be able to join a battle that has started before or at the same time. The actual system works but I think both timers are a little short and make OW PvE relatively save. I like the idea with the swords but where would you join? It might be dangerous because if you position a ganking group around a single target there is no direction this target can escape if you join where you are by clicking this sword.  Look at the join circle in reinforcementzones. If a superior group manages it to join within the 2 1/2 minutes, they can position around a target. A death trap even for the owner of the reinforcementzone. That is not good and could be done with the „click on swords“ easiely everywhere. Not a good ROE on OW.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Sir Loorkon

[Vernon Merrill]

2 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Except in the case where someone spotted you fighting on the location marked by the cross swords which then proceeded to close. Those people have already spotted you before the battle closed and should be able to join.

Sure.  As long as you join at about a 90 minute sail’s distance.   

Remember that whole time compression thing?

OW draw distance is approx. 20k in good weather.  

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Vernon Merrill said:

Sure.  As long as you join at about a 90 minute sail’s distance.   

Remember that whole time compression thing?

OW draw distance is approx. 20k in good weather.  

I see you're unwilling to compromise. I guess we can just set the timer back up to 3 minutes and leave it at that since there's clearly no possible way to grant a soft close.

[Hethwill]

Just now, Slim McSauce said:

3 minutes

Leaving port join timer 3 minutes and 1 second then.

Exit battle join timer 3 minutes and 1 second then.

OW speed reduced, travel from view range to center of "bubble" to take 3 minutes - what you see is what you get.

Compromises.

[Vernon Merrill]

I see you’re unwilling to accept that we’ve tested all this and found that the best “compromise” was what we currently have.  

I personally thought the “giant circle insta-close was best”.  But I accept the current compromise.  

Good day.  

Edited January 9, 2019 by Vernon Merrill

[Christendom]

2 minute timer is terrible.  It has reduced overall PVP in my opinion.  I know quite a few people who’ve lost interest as a result, myself being one of them.  What we’ve experienced over the past 2 weeks is simply a holiday break boost.  Numbers will go down again soon.  

I would prefer a 5 min timer with ever increasing in distance positional joins.  I didn’t love the 3 min timer, but it seems more fair than the 2 min.  Some of the biggest and most enjoyable fights I have had were consequences of an increased join timer.

[jodgi]

59 minutes ago, Christendom said:

 It has reduced overall PVP in my opinion

I hold the opposite opinion, but does it matter? Battle count, frequency and even BR sum and diff inside the instances divided by online players is probably tracked. It's interesting that we went from 20 to 10(?) to 2 to 5 to 3 and then a long stretch of time and we're back to 2 min join timers almost ninja'd in. What if "the numbers show..." whatever you or I might feel about it?

1 hour ago, Christendom said:

I didn’t love the 3 min timer, but it seems more fair

Define fair and in relation to what goal, principle or emotion?

Opinions are ok. (I'm reminding myself now, because I do more than my fair share of dick swinging around here)

I guess I'm always in mild shock when people would bend the closest approximation of wysiwyg and make all battles small patrol zones. Nevermind good planning and daring dashes, it should all be about who has the most players sitting shooting the breeze in outposts and freeports ready to scramble. "Play smart?"... Nah, just put the bait out, talk shit and pounce people stupid enough to bite with 5+ min timers.

By all means, if you post EA guys need to see the shit for yourself before you believe it's true we could do it all again. We should do a yearly week of 10 min timers so we wouldn't have to repeat this discussion over and over.

[Vernon Merrill]

If you join a battle after 5 mins., do you even deserve to take ANY part in that battle?  

Its like people want to see the port-humping days of "quick, I tagged Lord Vacuous in his Santi near Cabo Canveral!  Teleport to San Sebastian and I'll keep him tagged!" all over again.

It was ridiculous then and its ridiculous now.

Its really quite simple.  

If you want to fight together, you need to sail together.

Maybe the fact that you're sailing around in 8 pimped-out Bellonas is the ACTUAL reason you're having trouble finding a good fight?

[Angus MacDuff]

8 minutes ago, Wraith said:

And if you'd be truly honest, you'd have to say that longer timers result in bigger battles. This is just the nature of how battles tend to snowball and we've seen this any time longer timers have been tested (when you have enough player population to actually encounter them). Now, does it create "better" battles?

While this is true, it is always unfortunate for the player(s) who initiate the battle.  Much like in the Patrol Zone, if you start a battle and are having a good fight for several minutes, you are easy meat for the new players who jump in.  That's the whole point of the timer. 

[AeRoTR]

I still think, reinforcements spawning on the horizon, the later they join, the further away they are , of course battle should be closed at some time.

[jodgi]

5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

what many of us have found

That would be a qualitative study, I'm hoping OW mechanics are to be based on quantitative findings.

10 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Do we?

Yup, I'm pretty sure. But here admin could come swooping in and smacking me around with statistics proving me wrong... or the opposite. Like I said earlier; Admin wants big battles, he held on to long timers for a long time. Two years after our multi-national and multi-clan campaign to get wysiwyg timers we're back at 2 min timers. (We asked for 90 sec. timers that gives a bello with the weather gauge true wysiwyg)

 

26 minutes ago, Wraith said:

And yet you're a proponent of lobby-based, click to fight instant battles which completely ignores the time and space of OW completely?    Come on. To say you object to ignoring time and space in principle smacks to me of just not liking the way that timers affect your chosen play style, which I suspect largely involves sitting outside of Tortue and asking for a duel and you wish to avoid players jumping your battles and spoiling your arena-lite fun?

Heh, I still cry myself to sleep over losing Legends. Yes, I'm an airhead that really likes PvP-on-demand. But if we are to have an OW then that world must matter as far as time and space is concerned, that is my opinion, taste or feeling on the matter. I'm semi-ok with PZ's as it seems to provide a focus point for people who want a fight, I wouldn't object if you were to describe PZ's as a sloppy bandaid, as things have been I prefer the bandaid over nothing. It's ok to have a LOL area if everyone knows where the LOL is, I'm not ok with making the entire OW into a LOL area. Opinion. I stay away from capital areas, actually. It's been a very long time since I did an arranged duel, it's such a hassle and time consuming. I will set aside max time for the upcoming duel PZ and I'll cry every time that falls on a day I'm unable to play. 

51 minutes ago, Wraith said:

And if you'd be truly honest, you'd have to say that longer timers result in bigger battles.

I don't have access to the statistics but I suppose there is an increase in lopsidedness (bigger but one side tend to snowball more than the other) and decrease in battle frequency. 

58 minutes ago, Wraith said:

What you seem to always be ignoring is the fact that an expanding circle join doesn't have to correlate 1:1 to the time compression involved with OW sea travel.

OW is what I have and I don't want to shit on OW (time/space) to get a fight. To me that would be one step forward and two steps back. I want to be involved in making my own pvp and not teleport or hyperspace into other people's fights. I refuse to join you guys with playing it loose and fast with OW.

59 minutes ago, Wraith said:

But you know, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Thank you!

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

I think there's a happy medium there

@rediii is my inspiration:

Point to where this "happy medium" is!

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

and ignore the multiplayer, social, and economic of the game completely

The only thing I wish I could ignore is the eco bit.

#OWmustmatter

[JDAM]

I think a battle timer of 2:30 would be a compromise

@ 7.5k per minute (medium speed ship)
2 mins = 15K
2.5 mins = 19k
3 mins = 23k

@10k per minute (very fast frigate with copper plating)
2 mins = 20k
2.5 mins = 25k
3 mins = 30k

The extra 30 seconds extends the potential zone a few kilometers (and remember it is simultaneously shrinking as the timer burns down) and let the 1 or 2 players who make it to the circle right at battle close get into the fight (which I think is what the main complaint is about).   That would allow some balance between protecting the existing battle and allowing ships from the overall battle space a chance to get into the fold.  

 

 

Edited January 9, 2019 by Hemp Amore
spellcheck

[Christendom]

2 hours ago, jodgi said:

Define fair and in relation to what goal, principle or emotion?

Opinions are ok. (I'm reminding myself now, because I do more than my fair share of dick swinging around here)

I guess I'm always in mild shock when people would bend the closest approximation of wysiwyg and make all battles small patrol zones. Nevermind good planning and daring dashes, it should all be about who has the most players sitting shooting the breeze in outposts and freeports ready to scramble. "Play smart?"... Nah, just put the bait out, talk shit and pounce people stupid enough to bite with 5+ min timers.

By all means, if you post EA guys need to see the shit for yourself before you believe it's true we could do it all again. We should do a yearly week of 10 min timers so we wouldn't have to repeat this discussion over and over.

I've played with 10min timers, 30min signal timers and even outlaw battles.  No I wasn't present during this mythical sea trials days where the game was 1000% better yet somehow it was changed and none of those cats still play anymore.  Longer join timers are more fun and players need to be far more strategic in where they fought,  knowing reinforcements could be on their way and impact the current battle at present.  2 mins is not even enough time for ships in your party to all join the same battle if they are within sight of each other.  We were out in a mixed fleet last night hunting brits and in every single battle we had players left out that were not able to make it within 2 mins.  Then again, I actually play this game and have to suffer the development choices a token few seem to consistently request, but never seem to be around long enough to test out.  I also don't exclusively gank solo tbrigs in the shallows with 3 or 4 of my buddies all in princes.

Players of your ilk and the "more immersion" crew like this game to be more hardcore and realistic.  I'm not exactly sure what is realistic about a battle instance that closes 2 mins after it starts and no one can enter even if the battle drags on for hours and players magically pop out in the same spot despite sailing inside the battle for 2 hours.....    VS  a battle that players can join as they sail by and enter the fray, hence recreating in a sense real world battles where ships friendly or foe could enter an engagement well after the initial shots were fired.

A 3-5 min timer with positional joining based on time where players join further away from the cross swords seems to be the most fair all around standard ROE imo.

[Hethwill]

I saw first hand your last 5 minutes entry in the US coast, a few months ago, while using a non disclosed captain name ( not alt, but main account, i was simply enjoying 30 days away from prussia ).

Xebec bait and squadrons of Bellonas waiting way beyond draw range. I was one of the brave even not caring if i would sink and engaged, but you guys had your fun. Of course you did. Xebec was doomed unless you had a chance to enter.

With 2 minutes you have to be visible.

That's my line in the sand.

 

[Slim McSauce]

Slower OW sailing is now the answer, timer's up to 5 minutes with a soft close, whoever clicks  the swords may enter.
Convince me otherwise.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[JDAM]

Self-moderated for non-constructive discussion

Edited January 9, 2019 by Hemp Amore

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Hemp Amore said:

Barf.

Ships sailing too fast on OW is the core issue, this is actually proven, as no ship in the period could reach 30 knts.
It's safe to say ships sail 2x too fast through OW for consistency.
So go ahead, defend 30knt sailing.
I'll wait.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Christendom]

12 minutes ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

I saw first hand your last 5 minutes entry in the US coast, a few months ago, while using a non disclosed captain name ( not alt, but main account, i was simply enjoying 30 days away from prussia ).

Xebec bait and squadrons of Bellonas waiting way beyond draw range. I was one of the brave even not caring if i would sink and engaged, but you guys had your fun. Of course you did. Xebec was doomed unless you had a chance to enter.

With 2 minutes you have to be visible.

That's my line in the sand.

 

Because bait tactics never ever existed at all in the history of naval combat.  Never .. nope.   

If it was the US coast they would be in the safe zone and have an hour to reinforce and sink 4 bellonas.  We’ve used bait tactics successfully and unsuccessfully in US waters.  I don’t mind losing ships larger than a prince.  

We also never used xebecs as bait targets.  Everyone knows they can run and make poor traps.  A slow lone third or 4th rate is more our speed.  Your recollecting seems off.  Good effort tho

Edited January 9, 2019 by Christendom