Join Time/Space Solution

[Slim McSauce]

Situation:
A battle starts somewhere on OW. A timer starts, a player spots the battle, approached, a timer hits 2 minutes, the battle fades from that realm existence and at that very moment, time splits into 2 sequences, one is 1:1 time in instance, the other is 1:75 (theoretically, time is a measure of space, and is relative)

Another player see's the battle, in it's exact space in time, approaches where that battle SHOULD be taking place, the battle closes, the string between the two times and spaces (mostly space) Is lost forever. This is the black hole that is the battle instance, and the very weak thread that connects it with OW.

So from that point, time in battle flows 75x slower than on OW. (Theoretically) 
So what does the player do? He waits at what is 75x time for the battle to finish. By comparison, using game logic, he waits for weeks at the exact spot the battle is for the ships to re-structuralize on OW around the same spot they disappeared. 

Solution: A button to jump right into battle instance. If there's a battle in that spot, you will appear in that battle. If there is no battle in that spot, you will be in an empty battle.
Why does this work? As long as  there is no GPS co-ordinates to tell some exactly where a battle is so they can unfairly join 20 minutes after a battle even though they were not involved, then it's a good final solution to join timers. The battle can stay open for longer, maybe even indefinitely. The point is only those with the knowledge of where the battle is can join. This is arguably more fair and less arbitrary than battle closing under a certain timer.

 

Now this is somewhat complicated and we probably want a quicker fix than that. So here's a TL;DR version, 
Battles stay open for say 3 minutes on a normal timer. After that then the battle goes into reinforcement mode. What is that? Instead of joining immediately, people who join will be put on an in battle timer where they have to wait say 10 minutes before their ship is spawned. People in battle know that this person has joined so they get a warning and act accordingly. Point is battles can stay open longer, providing more pvp opportunity while remaining fair to those already in, while also not severely disconnecting the space between OW and battle instance.

A secondary solution that imo is more effective but more controversial, battles stay open for 30 minutes, except there's a BR join limiter that prevents people piling in. People may join after this time but only if it doesn't turn the battle into a gank. That is an OK solution, probably worthy for it's own topic but that's sort of the juxtaposition to be considered.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Angus MacDuff]

I'm actually okay with the timer just cutting you off.  In RL, when a battle occurred, nobody knew it was going on unless they were there.  Most battles (even Trafalgar) were fought to conclusion in isolation.  The issue for me is what happens after the battle.  You should not spawn in exactly the same spot as you went into battle and be welcomed by a crowd of bloodthirsty revenge gankers.  Either spawn away from your start point or have more invisibility (or both).  I know the timer is against realism, but it simulates the fact that it's a big world and you cant magically enter battles every time.  Another option is to close battles very quickly and only allow ships that were in sight of the battle's beginning to join it.

[Slim McSauce]

1 minute ago, Angus MacDuff said:

I'm actually okay with the timer just cutting you off.  In RL, when a battle occurred, nobody knew it was going on unless they were there.  Most battles (even Trafalgar) were fought to conclusion in isolation.  The issue for me is what happens after the battle.  You should not spawn in exactly the same spot as you went into battle and be welcomed by a crowd of bloodthirsty revenge gankers.  Either spawn away from your start point or have more invisibility (or both).  I know the timer is against realism, but it simulates the fact that it's a big world and you cant magically enter battles every time.  Another option is to close battles very quickly and only allow ships that were in sight of the battle's beginning to join it.

Sure but it has to be softer and not so arbitrary. If I can see a battle, approach it even have it selected and have it close right under me, that's a gameplay problem that doesn't lend itself to any sort of enjoyment.Also popping out is an issue too which yeah could be solved by more inv or an option to return to nearest  port or something.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Angus MacDuff]

4 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

Another option is to close battles very quickly and only allow ships that were in sight of the battle's beginning to join it.

This would work.  If you are in sight of the swords when they appear, you can join.  Otherwise, you don't ever see them.  Not sure if that's codable, of course.

[Jack Lowe]

Is it codable yes of course it is. Practically anything is codable. In the scenario you mention MacDuff it's fairly simple. The crossed swords is a unity game object. We won't go into all that that means just to say it is an object we can attach code to directly to send or receive information like your mouse over it or a left click. In this case we would need the swords to do a range check to a certain distance the moment they are created. Anything within that range gets flagged as insight. The swords will be active for those players or visable. Meaning also those players that can see the swords can interact with them, click and enter battle. Anyone outside that range the swords are inactive or masked and player interaction disabled. Those players can't see them can't click them they shall not pass. Nothing terribly crazy.

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Jack Lowe said:

Is it codable yes of course it is

Hey i'm just a old navy guy who had people to do that sort of thing. .  Seems like I've solved the problem...Make it so!

[Jack Lowe]

Old navy guy as well. I just decided to make learning some programming and development a hobby in my spare time. Curiosity really, still enjoyable hobby. Unity is a nice platform. No insult intended just to say any idea can be made digital reality. o7 mate.

[Slim McSauce]

It's actually simpler than you think. As long as you can translate a string logic into computer language then just about anything is possible within hardware limit. For this I'm pretty sure just removing the section of code where the battle join window turns to "battle closed", you can join any time after as long as that window remains open. Which required you to have clicked it before the crosswords disappearing. You have sort of a line wide open, which only needs to be brought to a close.
Like bandaging the end of a amputated finger.

Or maybe it's not exactly like that, I've only edited script here and there.
Your solution is the solution, from there it's just how long do you want crosswords on OW to be clicked, and after that what to do about post battle positioning.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Greysteak]

I think this is an interesting suggestion.  I like MacDuff's a bit better, however.   I would add a few caveats.   One, that someone just out of sight at the time and travelling towards gets a chance.  Two, that anyone in the spotter's group at the time of the spot be allowed.  And third, that a join timer still be in force,  just a much longer one like 10 minutes.

[Slim McSauce]

It actually is his suggestion, somehow he quoted me under it.

1 hour ago, Angus MacDuff said:

 Another option is to close battles very quickly and only allow ships that were in sight of the battle's beginning to join it.

Is not a quote from me but from him. That's what I was talking about.
Overall it's the simplest most effective solution imo so credits to him for it.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[Cecil Selous]

Giant pull circle like we had one day (as far as you can see) and on top of that a 30 sec timer (maybe even a minute) for the ones who magically saw their friends disappear into nothing. Those can join on the edge of the pull circle. And then it is closed. You fight what you see and you have enough time to somehow drag that giant pull circle over your friends if they are not that close to you (especially with our tiny tag circles where the enemy has to get very close first). Except you sail alone and meet a big hostile fleet. Those ganks can't be prevented. Not fun for you but just bad luck.

Allowing group members to always join will lead to annoying baiting tactics. I would not allow that.

That's my proposal, but in the end we need a solid compromise where the majority is happy (like the ideas in this thread or a growing circle form the other thread). But we argue since the beginning about that and I don't know if we will ever find a solution that is satisfying.

2 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

So what does the player do? He waits at what is 75x time for the battle to finish. By comparison, using game logic, he waits for weeks at the exact spot the battle is for the ships to re-structuralize on OW around the same spot they disappeared.

perfect example why the possibility to revenge gank is such a bs mechanic.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Cecil Selous

[JDAM]

With only 2 minutes to enter most battles it is already effectively this.  2 minutes sail time translates into 15-20k total distance at the FASTEST possible OW speeds.  Slow ships and this 2 mintues is effectively 10-12k of travel.  So at best only ships within 15k of the initial tag could ever hope to possibly enter the battle as the window will shut in 2 minutes for anyone futher away than that.  A guy who makes it in from 15k away is literally going to be hitting join as the battle timer runs out... So this is fixing a non issue problem. 

[Jack Lowe]

I have a possible counter proposal. Let's leave aside the join timer issue for the moment although there are some good ideas germinating on that I think. Let's look at the endless revenge gank issue which seems to cause a rather large problem by forcing people to stay in game much longer than some would like or  can afford to spend.

Now it's my understanding that when you exit a battle instance you appear on OW at the point and with the heading you had when the battle started. If this is not so then just ignore the rest. Assuming this is so then with invisibility and speed buff there is still a fairly finite area to search which is what makes serial ganks possible. We go into battle instance at a point and heading that corresponds to our OW position. Seems logical to me that we should return to OW from battle the same way. We should be at the point and heading from which we exit.

Now the thought just occured to me reading this thread so there maybe some obvious exploits I'm not considering, however it would help mitigate revenge and serial ganks by creating a much larger area to cover looking for the target also the escaping ship gets the right by having evaded his opponent to have more choice over where and with what heading to make his OW escape. After a battle ends he has 15 minutes to run of course that might need to be shortened. On the other hand if his opponent wishes to chase him the full hr. thirty that is the aggressors choice knowing he can't catch him. The defender still can pop at anytime he feels he has the advantage. There are still I imagine some issues to be had but I do think that most gankers have something better to do than a hopeless chase for over an hr. Thoughts?

[JDAM]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Wrong. It's fixing a problem that is driving players away, namely, players sailing around for hours without finding any Action.. and this in a game with "Action" in its title.

Did you read the thread?  It's about preventing ganking or denying content to anyone not within sight of the intial tag.  I said that the current mechanics are already doing that.  It's not wrong.  It's how it works.  What he wants is a world where he can control the timing and rate at which enemies enter his battles.  10 minute holds for combat?  To make it more "fair?"  

 

7 minutes ago, Wraith said:

You're trying to apply pseudo-intellectual reasoning to an already game-ified mechanic. And what you should be doing is asking not whether this makes sense physically or in the real world, but rather does it make sense from a game play perspective and is it more or less fun because of that.

Couldn't be more toxic could you... Psuedo-intellectual reasoning?  It's what a 2 minute window effectively is.  Limits the possible entrants to around 15k around the battle.  A 3 minute window limits entrants to 21-25k around the battle.  The more time you give to enter battles the larger a radius of potential ships that can enter.  A 30 minute window equates to potential ships within 200-300k of the battle.  I think the mechanics as they are fine, 3 minutes would get you a few more potential entrants, but the effect at 2 mins or 3 mins remains the same... battle closed.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Wraith said:

The answer is that for the majority of players 2 minute timers are too short to find and join battles if you're in a mixed fleet group, even for groups that are sailing in reasonably close proximity and combing coast lines for hours looking for targets. If you want more varied engagements, with mixed fleets, more often, given we have so few people in such a large game world, then timers must be longer or other RoE (expanding join "doughnut," etc.) should be employed.

The player numbers are increasing again since the doubloon patch.  Seeing 180s at night and 450s on the weekends again.  I don't think population levels have any effect on individual battles other than which players may be in them.  A ship must still know of its existence, they have to be in the area to join and a million other variables, goes on and on, but population has nothing to do with the number of ships that happen to be in a particular area where a particular battle is being waged.  
 

[Farrago]

What I would like to see is players able to join the battles for a longer period of time (bigger battles good) but reduce or eliminate the sitting at the crossed swords waiting for the serial or revenge gank.

1. Ideally exit from battle would be based on position not on original sword location. Apparently this is a big coding challenge.

2. Increase invisibility/hyper speed time. After invisibility no join/attack timer for 60 seconds.

3. Battles stay open much longer but to join the battle after it starts you must be OUTSIDE the join circle (like Port Battle attackers must do). That join circle constantly increases in size up to ultimately rendering range of the swords. There could result in several small battles within one battle instance. Or reinforcements could be chasing the active battle. Or the prey could be running towards help.

[Slim McSauce]

1 minute ago, Farrago said:

3. Battles stay open much longer but to join the battle after it starts you must be OUTSIDE the join circle (like Port Battle attackers must do). That join circle constantly increases in size up to ultimately rendering range of the swords. There could result in several small battles within one battle instance. Or reinforcements could be chasing the active battle. Or the prey could be running towards help.

Nice out of the box thinking, this may actually work pretty well.

Like 2 stages to join the first timer in within the circle for 3 minutes, then for 5 minutes after you can still join but outside of ther circle, perhaps on one side of the tag.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Slim McSauce

[jodgi]

29 minutes ago, Wraith said:

And longer join timers simply makes more of these result in battles than result in non-battles, period.

You weren't here when we had universal 20 min timers, were you?

[Slim McSauce]

18 minutes ago, jodgi said:

You weren't here when we had universal 20 min timers, were you?

No but I bet it was a flat 20 minute join into a tight join circle, no sort of finesse whatsoever.

[JDAM]

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

Read that back slowly, out loud if you need to, for it to sink in how bad your reasoning is. Player numbers have everything to do with the numbers “ship meeting ship” interactions there are in the game.

You're reading this a little too literally.  Regardless of the server population, it can be 100, 1,000 or even 10,000, if the window is 2 minutes long only ships in the ~15k relative overall battle zone are getting in it.

[AeRoTR]

I would recommend, more visible swords, like:

GREEN Sword: battle is open you can join one green circle only which your nation already joined. 

DARK GREY Sword: battle is closed

BLUE Sword: Battle is open you can join any side. 

-----------------

The battle stays open for 30 minutes, BUT due to time compression effect, every minute you are late, much longer time in battle passed. 

So after standard joining time, circles start moving away from the swords! So every minute you are late, you will be far away from battle, when on the join circle it will say you are xx kilometers away from battle, your choice to join. 

Circles are calculated to be never on land, they may even get closer at some point to create more battles. And battle will close as some logical time, to make sense, joiners can get into action. 

[jodgi]

6 hours ago, Wraith said:

I contend that there's a happy medium

We've tested 20 min, 10, min, 5 min, 3 and 2 min. No happy medium was found.

Admin had express intentions to promote big battles with longer timers, just like you have. It never worked out according to best intentions. What we do know is that the longer timers we have the more timid and reactive OW play gets. Just look at PZ and how people don't want to start a fight but rather join a fight.

You want to disregard time and space and have people teleport into instances using "happy medium" timers. That is objectionable to me in principle, on top of that it doesn't lead to more battles and bigger battles anyway. Admin is sitting on the numbers and he can compare the number of fights divided on online players under all join timer regimes. What works and doesn't work despite our wishes and intentions is known.

8 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

No but I bet it was a flat 20 minute join into a tight join circle, no sort of finesse whatsoever.

I can't comment on all the possibilities and challenges with growing joing circles and distances. As far as I know admin only commented on the (simple) the later you join the further out you'll be placed idea and that it isn't doable since land was included into instances, nobody wanted open sea instances back.

The idea of a visible growing join circle or band has never been commented by admin. Maybe there are some technical (server resource) challenges to be considered? If we want the circle to grow to directly compensate for the difference in time compression the circle would probably grow so fast it would cause problems with joining and following frustration. I also suppose it would cause frustration when people realize how long it actually takes to cover distances they're used to zooming across in OW, It would be the same "I can't help my friends!" complaints. If we look a someone who joins an average fight after 4-5 minutes with a growing join circle, he won't be able to reach the fight before the instance time is up. All that work with RoE and we're almost back to where we started. If you suggest some form of teleportation or acceleration we're back to the fact that long timers make players timid and unwilling to commit... maybe unless it's a clear gank or counter-gank in their favour.

Sometimes things are deceptively easy on paper.

[Slim McSauce]

A good solution is out there and perhaps already in this thread. It's just how willing you are to attempt it. Of course we can drop the timer down to 1 minute and call it a game, but that'll just make the counter problem to long timers even worse. There's nothing wrong with a long timer if there's proper balance for joining late. A battle join timer, joining after 3 minutes put's you on a timer before you may fight, is almost the same as growing circles.

[jodgi]

26 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

joining after 3 minutes put's you on a timer before you may fight

I think people would hate those timers with a passion, but I could be wrong.

[AeRoTR]

Just spawn them furher away, so they have to sail, instead of waiting for timer

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, jodgi said:

I think people would hate those timers with a passion, but I could be wrong.

Maybe they would, but for certain if it wasn't for the post-timer timer they wouldn't have been able to join the battle at all, so.