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Sail Time and Compression

Sailing time  

228 members have voted

  1. 1. How long should it take to sail from one end to the other end of the map in the game?

  2. 2. How many different sailing modes would you prefer?

    • From the deck of the ship only? (not accelerated)
    • From the deck of the ship + a top down mode or different perspective? (accelerated)
    • From the deck of the ship + a map to chart way-points to auto sail? (not accelerated, still subject to attack and wind change)
    • A combination of these or another mode not mentioned? (accelerated)
    • A combination of these or another mode not mentioned? (not accelerated)
  3. 3. How long should it take to explore the entire game map by sailing? (Roughly estimate)

    • 2 weeks of sailing around?
    • 1 month of sailing around?
    • 3 months of sailing around?
    • 6 months of sailing around?
    • 1 year or more of sailing around?


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Gentlemen,

 

IMHO, however this time/space/area decision works out, I believe that Naval Action will always have to have some arena where all interested parties can go for simple PVP ship v ship combat, some type of training arena.  I'd also like to see advanced sailing operations and a similar training arena incorporated as well (other posts out here from me on that subject as well). 

 

What do these comments have to do with the current travel time issues being discussed here?  It appears that the developers, and I might add the current customer base have created a truly awesome Age of Sail "battle simulator".  This looks to me like it will become the Flight Simulator X for the Age of Sail.  Wouldn't that be nice for business!  Since only combat exists in the "product" now, from a marketing standpoint you've got to ask, what is it that has drawn so many of the current customers to shell out $40.00 bucks for this game.  It's the beautiful ships, the stunning ocean scenery (and we don't even have land yet!), the immersive and impressive sounds of battle, the pushing of the limits for historical accuracy, and just  plain old excitement of battle in a sailing ship.  I believe that this is what is drawing new players to the game.  The casual player, and the hard core historical gamer, both should always be able come back to Naval Action for a quick fight, to learn new techniques, or to brush up their combat or sailing skills.

 

How does the current (although aged) king of flight simulators accomplish the time/space compression?  They leave it up to the customer.  If I want to fly from L.A. to New York I can do it 1-1 real time (and have great stretches of time where I am afk), or I can accelerate time and just do the "fun" stuff.  Now, if I choose to fly with others, I must fly in 1-1 time and fly in the real (geographical) world, but its my choice.  Give us both. A full depth immersive world that should we choose we can take weeks or months to explore (that in itself is an adventure game), but also give us smaller arenas where we can jump in a practice using these beautiful models that you've created for us in battle or in complex sailing exercises (how many of us know how to set the anchor in an SOL or frigate?  I'd like to know how).

 

That would open up a lot of "marketing" opportunities for Naval Action.  Just my thoughts.  Thanks for listening.

 

Dean (poosd)  

Do you think removing accelerated travel but keeping an 'arena mode' like we have at the minute would be viable?

Personally, I think travel should be limited to real time (accelerated time would bring a swathe of logistical issues) and players not interested or without time to travel from port to port could then play the arena mode. I wouldn't like travel to be taxing in any way but nor do I think it has to be. If it took 5-10 minutes to go to the nearest port I'm sure we'd all be happy. Maybe with ports further afield too for those wanting to sail more.

unless sailing directly across open ocean you would be ill advised to go AFK as reefs and sandbanks would need negotiated not to mention fellow sailors. there could always be thing to occupy players.

Here is a link to a thread regarding 'arena mode' and it's fate once open world hits - http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/2931-remember-to-keep-arena-mode-gl/

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Im just going to copy and paste some things here.

 

"unless sailing directly across open ocean you would be ill advised to go AFK as reefs and sandbanks would need negotiated not to mention fellow sailors. there could always be thing to occupy players."

 

"As for sailing the Indian ocean, there's only talk of the Caribbean sea so far, so long voyages will likely be kept to a minimum."

 

"Flying around in EVE is no fun at all because you don't have to do anything to get from A - B. You don't need to manually look out for stuff (enemy, rocks, reefs, shoreline etc) like you will on a sail ship or adjust sail according to the wind."

 

You really dont know what you are talking about as nothing has come out yet that says what the end state of the open world is going to look like. In Eve you need to look out for just as many exciting things as talking to your crew or dodging reefs etc. How is sailing across vast areas of sea or ocean going to be an engaging experience that will maintain the interest of gamers at all. 

 

Almost every MMO and any mmo that was or is successful has some way for people to get to the area they want to play in; faster than hoofing it in real time. 

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Almost every MMO and any mmo that was or is successful has some way for people to get to the area they want to play in; faster than hoofing it in real time. 

I cant name a single "open world" mmo with factional pvp, warfare, politics, a real player market and trading, that have had fast travel or instant travel, that have succeded.

I know many that have failed. part of the reason is the metagame gets ruined.

most mmos dont really have player interaction beyond raids and dungeons, there fast travel is okay, because there is no real market and factions that need the travel time to work.

but if you're talking about REAL travel time i agree. cant have that. would take a week  to through the english channel.

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Flying around in EVE is no fun at all because you don't have to do anything to get from A - B. You don't need to manually look out for stuff (enemy, rocks, reefs, shoreline etc) like you will on a sail ship or adjust sail according to the wind.

The key here will be making sure ports and places of interest aren't too far apart so there is always something to hold your attention. One or two minutes 'idle' time in-between is going to be inevitable though as you need some open sea for battles and chases to take place.

As for auto sail, I don't think there should be set routes your ship will sail for you. Isn't pointing the bow in the right direction and let the wind take you 'automatic' enough? It would take piloting reefs and lee shore out of it completely.

I would also imagine the majority of the community would be well against playing multiple accounts, especially at the same time too.

 

 

Yeah exactly, if changeable wind and windspeed will be introduced it will always be something too look after.

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You really dont know what you are talking about as nothing has come out yet that says what the end state of the open world is going to look like. In Eve you need to look out for just as many exciting things as talking to your crew or dodging reefs etc.

 

Where do I claim to know what the "end state" of the world will look like?

I played EVE for a few month (and sub-sequentially got bored of it), the travel was point, click, 'ALT + TAB' .. .. Say I'm trading in EVE and want to jump a few systems, I click and it does everything for me. (This might not be the case once you're further into the game but I never lasted that far)

 

The travel could end up being the same in NA but it doesn't need to be. There are countless dangers you must look out for in a world even without enemies while sailing. Correct me if I'm wrong but there are non in EVE. This is the difference.

 

How is sailing across vast areas of sea or ocean going to be an engaging experience that will maintain the interest of gamers at all.

 

Firstly, I even qualified my comments with "unless sailing directly across open ocean". Secondly, I never once proclaimed to have the answers to this.

See this post for my thoughts on the subject of open ocean travel if you care- http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/3005-what-type-of-travel-system-would-you-like-to-see-for-open-world/?p=61421

Like I say in that post though, I don't envy their task of finding a balance here at all, it's not easy but that's their challenge. If they get it right it will be an awesome game. :wub:

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Gentlemen,

 

IMHO, however this time/space/area decision works out, I believe that Naval Action will always have to have some arena where all interested parties can go for simple PVP ship v ship combat, some type of training arena.  I'd also like to see advanced sailing operations and a similar training arena incorporated as well (other posts out here from me on that subject as well). 

 

What do these comments have to do with the current travel time issues being discussed here?  It appears that the developers, and I might add the current customer base have created a truly awesome Age of Sail "battle simulator".  This looks to me like it will become the Flight Simulator X for the Age of Sail.  Wouldn't that be nice for business!  Since only combat exists in the "product" now, from a marketing standpoint you've got to ask, what is it that has drawn so many of the current customers to shell out $40.00 bucks for this game.  It's the beautiful ships, the stunning ocean scenery (and we don't even have land yet!), the immersive and impressive sounds of battle, the pushing of the limits for historical accuracy, and just  plain old excitement of battle in a sailing ship.  I believe that this is what is drawing new players to the game.  The casual player, and the hard core historical gamer, both should always be able come back to Naval Action for a quick fight, to learn new techniques, or to brush up their combat or sailing skills.

 

How does the current (although aged) king of flight simulators accomplish the time/space compression?  They leave it up to the customer.  If I want to fly from L.A. to New York I can do it 1-1 real time (and have great stretches of time where I am afk), or I can accelerate time and just do the "fun" stuff.  Now, if I choose to fly with others, I must fly in 1-1 time and fly in the real (geographical) world, but its my choice.  Give us both. A full depth immersive world that should we choose we can take weeks or months to explore (that in itself is an adventure game), but also give us smaller arenas where we can jump in a practice using these beautiful models that you've created for us in battle or in complex sailing exercises (how many of us know how to set the anchor in an SOL or frigate?  I'd like to know how).

 

That would open up a lot of "marketing" opportunities for Naval Action.  Just my thoughts.  Thanks for listening.

 

Dean (poosd)  

you are simply arguing for a single player game. A lot have but I don't think you are gonna get that. At least not for a long time.

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How about this?  in coastal regions where populations are usually high there is no time dilation, but when in open sea, and there are no encounters in the area, then time compression occurs until a encounter happens.  This time compression would make crossing open oceans (like from London to Cuba) a bit more bearable and still playable.

 

But I guess it depends on how long you are willing to sit in front of your computer watching waves go by.

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Actually accelerated speed when in the deep ocean does work, Uncharted Waters Online uses such system.  Basically the ship covers more distance while still in the same time as everyone else.  The only "problem" with deep sea sailing would be that it would require the player to have some talent and knowledge of navigation as there are no landmarks in the middle of open water. 

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Anyone of you hear ever played Pirates of the Carribean Online?An ancient game that died two years back.The combat was shit and there was no such thing as econ in that game,Its jus a big story

HOWEVER,the only one thing I loved about it was its open world sailing.There is no such thing as a tactical map or strategic map or wadeva bs.You sailed your ship and whatever you saw,you have a chance to shoot at it straight off the bat and have a battle right there and then without you being loaded onto a battlelike sea arena with boundaries,as literally the whole map is your boundary.Firstly this is historicaly accurate as chases of ships of enemy nations take place over a large distance(the whole sea) not a tiny map(Master and Commander anyone?)

Secondly,you are travelling on an open sea,where other people can see you and engage immediately if they want to rescue you or sink you or sink your enemy(etc etc)

For the time predicament,follow POTCO.They took the actual map and did a scale drawing.They lowered the time to travel by shortening distances to ports.Lets just say u are travelling at 12.5 knots(using the lynxs speed with the wind diagonal ish) you take 20 to 30 min to travel from Port Royal to lets say,Santa Domingo.That would be following POTBS(which I played alot since Sony was still running the show,where they increased the speed of ships to 60 knots to cover actual distances) but instead of actual distances its shortened distances with actual ship speeds and instead of separate action instances in a separate map,its all happening on one big map.To solve the problem of a port battle 32 vs 32 or more where players are purely congregated for a battle(potbs term),let there be a separate instance in a separate map(only case) like a Trafalgar map.Unless of course the map has been balanced and fps is stable enough for the open world to suppprt it.Then that would be truly fun.Rum and weapon runners will be running for port and trying not to get shot as the big boys shoot each other to kingdom come.

So main note:shortened map distances with actual ship speeds.The battle arena for everyone is the whole world,no separate instances

Note:This is from another dead thread so it may include things not relevant.Still this are my 2 cents and feel free to shoot me.

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I want to see realistic scales and travel times. That would mean asynchronous time compression and localized instances for encounters in order for it to be sane. I'm thinking procedurally generated coastlines for PvP encounters, PvE mission waypoints and player-built facilities while major ports and fortresses act as player hub areas.

 

Scaling everything down will detract from the feeling of a grand recreation and make the place feel like a play pen. If I want that I can go down to the playground and stand in the ship-shaped climbing frame and get high, or play Black Flag.

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I voted 2 hours from one side to the other, but this is only if the map is restricted to the Caribbean. Any longer and it'll take far too long to get anywhere once the game expands to Europe and other theatres. Nobody would want to play a regular commercial role in the game.

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Actually accelerated speed when in the deep ocean does work, Uncharted Waters Online uses such system.  Basically the ship covers more distance while still in the same time as everyone else.  The only "problem" with deep sea sailing would be that it would require the player to have some talent and knowledge of navigation as there are no landmarks in the middle of open water. 

 

Which is what I've been advocating: shrinking distance rather than accelerating time. It's functionally the same to the end user, but avoids the problem of de-synced clocks.

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Shrinking distance is not really what occurred in Uncharted Waters Online because it would throw the shape of the globe out of whack.  So what they did was accelerate the rate of covering distance (speed) when in the middle of the ocean where running into someone was really rare.  Realistically, the only time that I had to worry about player pirates was when I was near the coasts or islands, making deep ocean travel be the safest way for merchants to sail around to place to place.

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Oh I see what you're saying. So "10 knots" near land is slower than "10 knots" in the mid-Atlantic?

 

I could get behind that.

I can see that being exploited should you be chasing someone they just by default sail to the open sea. Hmmm interesting concept.

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As am I, the larger the play area the better. Let the world be full of uncertainty and uncharted waters. I say let fly the black and take no prisoners!!! Oh, wait.... Just make it massive please.

 

:P

 

-Cannonball

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I can see that being exploited should you be chasing someone they just by default sail to the open sea. Hmmm interesting concept.

Yeah this seems pretty smart.

Maybe the speed of the ship can be a linear equation to the distance of land.

Or maybe even exponentiel. then the further from land you travel the faster you go.

So if you are chasing someone and he goes to the open sea, he wont suddenly just go faster, you also go faster the further away you go from land.

In this case it would work to have really bug maps. But put out some islands here and there to slow down the speed if people think its going to fast.

Here are some graph to show how I mean.

I dont say it has do be linear or exponential, but its an idea atleast.

The graph can be offset also.. so it kicks in a bit further out.

Using%20speed-time%20graphs%20to%20find%image225.png

It shouldent say time, but distance...

 

 

Edit: To not have so much exploit near coast maybe the graph have very little impact near the coast, but when you get a certain miles out from shore its start growing natural.

How to optimize this idea I leave to someone else ^_^

 

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Yeah this seems pretty smart.

Maybe the speed of the ship can be a linear equation to the distance of land.

Or maybe even exponentiel. then the further from land you travel the faster you go.

So if you are chasing someone and he goes to the open sea, he wont suddenly just go faster, you also go faster the further away you go from land.

In this case it would work to have really bug maps. But put out some islands here and there to slow down the speed if people think its going to fast.

Here are some graph to show how I mean.

I dont say it has do be linear or exponential, but its an idea atleast.

The graph can be offset also.. so it kicks in a bit further out.

Using%20speed-time%20graphs%20to%20find%image225.png

It shouldent say time, but distance...

 

 

Edit: To not have so much exploit near coast maybe the graph have very little impact near the coast, but when you get a certain miles out from shore its start growing natural.

How to optimize this idea I leave to someone else ^_^

 

 

IMO this is probably the best choice as it doesn't mess with dynamic scaling or what not.

Another option for the speed increase could be something like a √x equation, more of a gradual increase compared to a linear/quadratic equation

ex:

 f98970e0af298570e1afa846b31b1a81.png

 

Also, Just my opinion here, but speed increase during travel should be shown as something like 20 Kn(x2.5) instead of 50 knots. I'd rather know my ship's 'true' speed over the sped up speed

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Also, Just my opinion here, but speed increase during travel should be shown as something like 20 Kn(x2.5) instead of 50 knots. I'd rather know my ship's 'true' speed over the sped up speed

 

This! Yes this, absolutely!

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Posted the following on another thread, fits here too.

 

Below is a quick excel calculation, taking time compression as 3x and map scale as 2x, and average ship speed 5 mph.

This is in assumption that effectively these numbers stand, which I don't have actual confirmation for, so this is all just case-study.

First column (green) is real time travel, next column (orange) when taking into account time compression, last column (blue) real time divided by both time compression and map scale.

NA OS1

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Just to give people an idea of the size of the alpha stage open world area (16,000,000 km²):

ifczzl.jpg

Not sure where the actual borders are, or even of the width nor height ratio of the map; this example is 5000 × 3200 km (3,107 × 1,988 miles or 2,700 × 1,728 nautical miles).

Cheers,

Brigand

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This is a tough one.  Here are my thoughts.

 

If there is plenty to do locally I have zero issue with the map being huge and real time sailing mechanics.

 

HOWEVER.......

 

The sea is a big, big place, even if the scope of the map is just the Caribbean.  I absolutely don't want to come home from a hard days work, log into the game to play, decide to set sail and 3 hours later, have absolutely did nothing but watch pixel waves on the surface of the water while struggling to maintain course and wind.   This is not fun guys.  Hell playing 30-40 mins without any sort of activity or action isn't even remotely fun let alone several hours.

 

So I think sailing times need to be balanced around what activities can be accomplished in a normal game session of say 2-3 hours rather than attempt to create a simulator.  I mean seriously, I can pretty much guarantee you that  even the most hardcore Age of Sail fan isn't going to have fun playing 10+ hours sailing from say Nassau to Havana without ever once sighting another sail and I can pretty much guarantee this will be common if they use anything approaching real time and scale with regards to open world sailing.  

 

Also what if you wanted to sail from England to Nassau?  That is what, 1 month, 2 months of nothing but sea?  Yeah that would be fun....NOT!!

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