Remove sextant perk - replace with navigation tools

[Sir Texas Sir]

53 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Still wish it would be handled like area control with 3 points instead of 2, because its really cheap for a tool to avoid fights by enabling easy sailing away from all shipping lanes. But yeah how it is now its really a feature for the guy that has no skill in navigation.

Why do they have to hug the land?  Not every one wants fights, a smart sailor would take an out of way route. I do it all the time without F11 and new perk, but I been playing this game for 3 years so I know pretty much the whole map in most places I sail in. They are all ready giving up a combat perk for a  2 pt perk that won't help them in combat.  Most folks that will take this perk are folks that prob take more than one fleet too and have even less combat perks.  Stop trying to make game harder for others just cause you want to play the game your way.   

Again I'll post this old screen shot of cords and grid....yes you see the grids on there.   You can see I'm some where close to 67.50,32.50 portion of the map, but my actual location is 69.82, 31.54.   The grids are every .25 or .50 If I remember right.  So lets just give the cords to rounded up.  So instead you will get 69.8, 31.5 (I rounded off).   So I can get I'm in a general location but not the exact location or only give the .in .25/.50 not exact locations.  This would be more real in how they navigated back than.  They didn't get a perfect location but some of them could be pretty spot on too.   You adjust your course as you get better updated info if your Navigator wasn't half an idiot.   ....yes those are KiDD's  Island cords for any wondering.

As for those that don't want grids and cords, just make an option in the game controls to click so it doesn't show it.  Than you play hard core mode all you want.

 

[z4ys]

Just now, Sir Texas Sir said:

Why do they have to hug the land?

 

I only said 2 points for that perk is to cheap for what it gants. thats the only point I criticize. For me its same lvl as control + repair perk.

Edited December 21, 2018 by z4ys

[Sir Texas Sir]

33 minutes ago, z4ys said:

I only said 2 points for that perk is to cheap for what it gants. thats the only point I criticize. For me its same lvl as control + repair perk.

Actually control is free if you leave your chasers off or have a ship like the Reno so what is your point?  It gives no combat advantage other than knowing your not lost as hell.   They are all ready going to be down one combat perk just taking it.

[AeRoTR]

Lats and Logs have been used in naval maps, it is a must, I understand they will be implemented to the game map again in the future. A map from 1766 below,

 

Edited December 21, 2018 by AeRoTR

[Angus MacDuff]

Beautiful.  Here's another.  Wouldn't it be great to be able to zoom in on these and use their grids and scales?

[Marquês do Bonfim]

If they do this, I hope they also fix the freaking spyglass aswell, right now is unrealistic af as you can see almost everything from really far away, the spyglass should be 2x to 4x zoom only, if doing that, it would be nice to finally have flags in OW aswell, would add so much to the immersion of the game.

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Portuguese Privateer said:

If they do this, I hope they also fix the freaking spyglass aswell, right now is unrealistic af as you can see almost everything from really far away, the spyglass should be 2x to 4x zoom only, if doing that, it would be nice to finally have flags in OW aswell, would add so much to the immersion of the game.

The "Night" glass which was in common use in 1800 gave you the image upside down.  Talk about immersion...

[Sento de Benimaclet]

20 hours ago, koltes said:

Sextant perk is an easy feature to implement I get it. But the map tools offered are also VERY easy to implement and give much better immersion with the game. Way more
Its just as easy as it was with the Protractor tool.

Do not you think it would be fair for everyone to ask for the inclusion of these navigation tools, instead of deleting the sextant perk? And so everyone who uses what he wants. I think that would be reasonable.

[Koltes]

20 hours ago, Raekur said:

The one thing that might stick a stake into your idea is that if the trading tool is removed (specifically the component that tells you distance to port) then very little of this is going to work. First of all your maximum viewing distance is about 23 km so unless you are hugging the coast line then this will limit you on gaining any idea of where you are at simply because there is nothing to gain information from. You cant triangulate without 3 points of reference, even having only 2 will only give you a rough idea with an increase chance on inaccuracy the farther the distance between the 2 closest points. The sextant that was implemented may be nothing more than there being someone on board who actually knows how to navigate. Currently determining your location (without using F11) is only possible because you know the distance to fixed points and can do the calculations (though some inaccuracy is inherent due to lack of scale and not being able to actually draw the distance circles to determine points of intersection. While the idea you present would be interesting it would last only up to the first time someone changed course due to being chased or starting to chase someone. Afterward there is nothing to use as a point of reference (if the trader tool is removed and the knowledge of distance with it).

No mate, you didn't get my point I think. I don't believe there should be pin point location GPS at all. Even with those map tools. So when F11 is gone, when trader tool is gone, it becomes a discipline to plot your course and keep notes on the map to know your approximate location. If you were slack at making notes, then after logging back in you will have to do it the hard way. Fair call.

Time * speed = distance. Knowing how much distance you have covered will allow for plotting the course and following waypoints.

The Truth is there was no way to pin point your location. Sextant would only give you the Latitude. They even had established the Board of Longitude because it was a big issue.
The only way to tell Longitude was to have accurate timepiece, which from top of my memory did not appear until the end of the 18th century. I think John Harrison was the inventor. But navy really received it years later in the beginning of 19th century. I might be little off with time here, but point is there was no way to accurately tell your location unless you were making notes and plotting the course.

For this we just need map tools (including coordinates and distance) and Open World Bearing. Thats it.

 

10 hours ago, admin said:

Sextant is a very widely used perk now. players love sextant. 

I wonder what portion of those players are just testing the new perk and are not going to use it in the future?

Map tools proposed are not asking to change any mechanics in the game. They simply allow some drawings on the map.
All you need to add is Open World camera oriented compass that tells you the bearing where your camera is pointed.

 

9 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

I expect many players do love it, but for me, it's now too much.  I've navigated in the modern day and what we have now is like that.  All I ever asked for is an approx. position (+/- 10NM) every noon (game day).  That, on a map with a grid and scale is all that you could hope for in the late 18th century.

Living in New Zealand I have been sailing for years myself and navigation is just a hobby of mine. I agree that Sextant perk have right to exist, but should give MUCH less accurate location.

 

3 hours ago, Sento de Benimaclet said:

Do not you think it would be fair for everyone to ask for the inclusion of these navigation tools, instead of deleting the sextant perk? And so everyone who uses what he wants. I think that would be reasonable.

I don't think that the Sextant perk should be deleted either. I think that game should give you tools to navigate that by default are available to everyone. Those who want to make it easier, or who are bad at navigation, or just can't be bothered then they would have a choice to have Sextant perk, but it needs to be less OP and cost more.

So if we are talking about what Sextant perk should be then I think it needs to:
1. Cost 3 points;
2. Gives you a button to use once an hour to draw your approximate location on the map;
3. Circle should be a diameter between Mortimer Town and Baracoa (pretty precise for the era if you ask me. If you got lost it tells you what you need to know - your approximate location on the map so its easier for you to find way home. But no way it could be used for ganking or communicating exact locations of enemies etc)

Below is the example of the size of the circle.



 

 

[Macjimm]

3 hours ago, koltes said:

For this we just need map tools (including coordinates and distance) and Open World Bearing. Thats it.

Koltes,   respectfully how can I calculate my position, on the open sea, using a bearing?

I like to keep record of my course (speed, time and direction).  But there is very little time to accurately keep track of the speed, when we are continually watching for enemy.  Scanning 360 degrees requires almost all my attention, but I make hurried notes and do hasty calculations in quick brief moments between watching the horizon.  When I am able to determine the speed it is reasonably easy to figure out the distance traveled from the time. 

With varying wind direction and the weight of cargo (sometimes from fishing), a close eye on the speed is required.  Sometimes I'm not sure what the average speed has been and  it is handy to use a sextant. It appears that I will be required to use a perk and accept the GPS dot, but I prefer grid co-ordinate numbers, even if they were retooled to be less precise. 

I understand that Longitude, through a dependable Chronometer, was available to Britain and France in the early 1800s.  It took longer (up to 1850) for the USA and Russia to develop chronometers.  Before the chronometer, longitude was determined celestially (with angular sightings of the moon and stars,  and Almanacs)  to within 10km, or sometimes as far off as 45km.  If we accept that NA is set in the 1800's (given some of the ships available) then determining our position by Sextant and Chronometer should be darn accurate.  At the very least, determining latitude and "running down a westing" should be within a few KM.  But even in the 1700's a position fix would be possible with a small error in clear weather.

But all of this is moot.  The devs have decided that the GPS dot is beloved, and others are concerned that grid co-ordinate numbers promote ganking.

I am seeking alternatives to determining my position on the open sea without the grid numbers, so that I do not have to sail with the GPS dot.

[Koltes]

On 12/22/2018 at 4:31 PM, Macjimm said:

Koltes,   respectfully how can I calculate my position, on the open sea, using a bearing?
You cant. Bearing does not work in the open sea where there is nothing to take bearing on.
To calculate your position you will need to know location from where you began your journey, keep record of the direction of your travel and the speed. Knowing our average speed (depending which way the wind will blow it will change the average speed for shorter journeys, but will keep it the same on long journeys).

Plotting the course will allow sailors to change bearing in the middle of the open sea and still arrive to the destination with a decent precision.

 

I like to keep record of my course (speed, time and direction).  But there is very little time to accurately keep track of the speed, when we are continually watching for enemy.  Scanning 360 degrees requires almost all my attention...
I'm not sure why you need to be so paranoid in the open sea. Most of people watch youtube or walk the dog in the park while AFK sailing in the open sea. Its when you are near the land then you will need to be careful. But then again, you will know exactly where you are and there will be no need to keep the track of our route.

 

With varying wind direction and the weight of cargo (sometimes from fishing), a close eye on the speed is required.  Sometimes I'm not sure what the average speed has been and  it is handy to use a sextant. It appears that I will be required to use a perk and accept the GPS dot, but I prefer grid co-ordinate numbers, even if they were retooled to be less precise.
Well thats not that hard to figure really. You just need to know your speed on different angles with your current load. 1 minute job to run your ship in all directions and note the speed on 3-5 POS. Then it all depends where the wind was to you when you began your calculations. If you were going down wind then your avSpeed will be reasonably faster if your travel destination is not all that far away. But you are traveling to the other side of the map then it really is a small difference. Further you need to travel, more consistent your avSpeed will be. Speed precision rules itself out. Short journeys you dont even need to be all that precise. Long journeys - your speed will be pretty accurate.  

 

I understand that Longitude, through a dependable Chronometer, was available to Britain and France in the early 1800s.  It took longer (up to 1850) for the USA and Russia to develop chronometers.  Before the chronometer, longitude was determined celestially (with angular sightings of the moon and stars,  and Almanacs)  to within 10km, or sometimes as far off as 45km.  If we accept that NA is set in the 1800's (given some of the ships available) then determining our position by Sextant and Chronometer should be darn accurate.  At the very least, determining latitude and "running down a westing" should be within a few KM.  But even in the 1700's a position fix would be possible with a small error in clear weather.
Thats not true mate. In 17th century ships where getting lost easily because they could not tell the Longitude accurately. Before accurate timepiece was developed and got used in naval (1850s) error allowance was much greater than 10km. According to the link below The Board of Longitude was offering a huge prize if someone will come up with a solution to be able to pint point location at least within 110km (60 nautical miles). This tells us that in reality an actual ability to pin point the location was off even more. Maybe 150-200+km
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_of_Longitude

 

I am seeking alternatives to determining my position on the open sea without the grid numbers, so that I do not have to sail with the GPS dot.
There will be none if devs wont do it. We are down to 1 server now which now has the same population as the Global used to be before it was removed.
Devs are trying to make this game easier and easier and consequences less severe and people are keep leaving...

 

[Bluetooth]

On 12/21/2018 at 12:07 PM, admin said:

Sextant is a very widely used perk now. players love sextant. 

This is a great perk especially for new players.

I do not and would not use it because I have been in game for over two years.

Keep it for those that want to use it.

I do not understand why anyone would object to something that they don't have to use themselves ?

If you don't like it.....don't use it.

[Hullabaloo]

I don't object, whether I would use it or not is irrelevant, (I can't be arsed to aim my cannons, lets have an 'auto-aim' perk. if you don't like it don't use it). The question is: Does it improve the game as a whole? I would say 'no' because it's a perk that gives you one less thing to do (navigate). I think Koltes' suggestion is more in depth and immersive and makes for a more interesting sailing experience and is ultimately more fun. This game needs more stuff to do, not less.

[Hullabaloo]

1 hour ago, Pirate Blackbeard said:

I do not understand why anyone would object to something that they don't have to use themselves ?

I don't object, whether I would use it or not is irrelevant, (I can't be arsed to aim my cannons, lets have an 'auto-aim' perk. if you don't like it don't use it). The question is: Does it improve the game as a whole? I would say 'no' because it's a perk that gives you one less thing to do (navigate). I think Koltes' suggestion is more in depth and immersive and makes for a more interesting sailing experience and is ultimately more fun. This game needs more stuff to do, not less.

 

soz x2 post

Edited December 24, 2018 by Hullabaloo 'The Thief'

[Bluetooth]

2 hours ago, Hullabaloo 'The Thief' said:

I don't object, whether I would use it or not is irrelevant, (I can't be arsed to aim my cannons, lets have an 'auto-aim' perk. if you don't like it don't use it). The question is: Does it improve the game as a whole? I would say 'no' because it's a perk that gives you one less thing to do (navigate). I think Koltes' suggestion is more in depth and immersive and makes for a more interesting sailing experience and is ultimately more fun. This game needs more stuff to do, not less.

 

soz x2 post

This is a perk which does not effect combat or my game play in any way.

It only eases the game for those who want to use it, especially new players or those that can't be 'arsed' to navigate. 

I also think Koltes suggestion is fine but this perk does not need to be removed because of it.

Some people want immersive some don't, so give options for all not the few.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Pirate Blackbeard

[Angus MacDuff]

On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 6:14 AM, koltes said:

Thats not true mate. In 17th century ships where getting lost easily because they could not tell the Longitude accurately. Before accurate timepiece was developed and got used in naval (1850s) error allowance was much greater than 10km. According to the link below The Board of Longitude was offering a huge prize if someone will come up with a solution to be able to pint point location at least within 110km (60 nautical miles). This tells us that in reality an actual ability to pin point the location was off even more. Maybe 150-200+km

You got that wrong.  17th century is the 1600's, and not our time zone. By the end of the 18th century (1700's), reliable chronometers were available, though not in general use.  Naval captains were using them however, so it would be realistic for the purposes of our game.  Your own link states that the Longitude Board was disbanded by 1826 as the problem was considered solved.

[Hullabaloo]

7 hours ago, Pirate Blackbeard said:

This is a perk which does not effect combat or my game play in any way

Yes that's true(ish) and a fair point.  However, I remember when I first started playing and you could quite easily get a bit lost (particularly in a storm) and I enjoyed it! Doing a long sail was a bit of an adventure and when I thought/hoped I was nearing my destination I would be looking out for land and get that 'land ahoy!' feeling of relief when I spotted a land mark. This perk takes that away, is that a good thing? People might THINK they want it easy but they won't experience that feeling if they use the perk and will never really know whether they would have preferred it or not. I would like to see navigation as a challenge, navigation tools, winds blowing you off course, all that, its just more fun if it's more involved, more of a challenge.

It's  part of a more general point about 'dumbing the game down'.  You say 'give options to all not the few', but this is precisely why I don't play any AAA big budget games. They are designed (because the market dictates it) to have as wide an appeal as possible for as wide an ability level and age groups as possible and for me personally I find them boring. This game was supposed to be different, it was hard and if you made mistakes it would cost you time or your ship and there were no short cuts, it was for 'the few'. This was precisely it's appeal. The 'all' have loads of other games they can play. Now we have things like patrol zones: cant be arsed to sail around? just go here for pvp. Can't be arsed to craft ships? Here are some DLC ones. Can't be arsed to expand your warehouse? Here's another DLC. Cant be arsed to navigate? Here's a GPS perk. Can't be arsed to find an out of the way place to PvE? Here's a huge protection zone. I think the game just gets gradually watered down and a little bit more of the magic gets sucked out. Sure, this perk is not a big deal on it's own, but Admin seems to think that because players are using it then it MUST be good? But that doesn't make it good and could in fact be just another little part of the reason why fewer people are playing this game than ever before.