Battle Flags for different ROE's and solo hunting

[Slim McSauce]

Introduction:

Ok so here's a minor ROE suggestion that has been cooking up in my mind recently, I think now's a good time to try this because we don't see enough redeemable pvp battles to make up for the not so good ones or ones with very uneven odds that take on a slightly different mentality. Still a battle, slightly different from a fight which is what happens when 10 people fight another 10 people. In that situation there's an expectation of both sides to fight. There is no excuse to run in a Battle with pretty even odds. Infact every battle where by mere chance both sides show up with an even compliment of ships, that battle should be heavily rewarded fighting in because in NA even battles thrive and those heavily even battles where one side has to run constantly (if you've done any pvp you know what I'm talking about) the types of battles that if you as the greater force chase you're likely end up inside that battle for a full hour because it's so easily to run away as a group in NA.

People adore these fight so I'm in the aim to get rid of them, I just want the greater opportunity to participate in even battles while not having to really bother with solo hunting or ambush hunting. I like them which is why those playstyles will get the same honored treatment.

 

So here's the idea.

1. Three flags options at the port screen, you check whichever one you want depending on the type of action you want to participate/subject yourself to.
2.  Each flag has it's own ROE properties which dictate not only what you can tag, but who can tag you. As well as what battles you can join as seen below.
3. One flag will function as the solo hunter/pirate flag and carry that ROE, the other will be a naval officer flag for more fair group battles, the third is a non-war party mainly for traders and travelers.

           Optionally: Ambush flag, allows the ganking of any of these flags, but at no rewards. Happens after relinquishing your flag on OW.

 

Privateer flag:
Functions as a solo-pairs hunter's tool. Flag being ticked, gives you the ability to attack anyone/any group at 3x BR with the limit of these battles only fitting 2 people on each side, which close 15 seconds after they start. Allowing small group pvpers to stealthy take down targets at the expense of group size for ROE.

Naval Officer Flag:
Acts according to a more honorable means of action, once ticked this flag will initiate a 2x BR standard limit for tagging and being tagged. It will be understood that these battles will be made more focused on facing the enemy head on and not running away unless that is the result of an action. This flag is for medium to large group sizes and be well rewarded

Non-war Party flag: This is a commonality flag for people who are not looking to engage or be engaged in pvp. Of course this is NA so they will be able to be tagged and engaged but only under strict condition, in return for relinquishing the ability to tag. Conditions being only an enemy under the Privateer flag may tag a non-war'ing flag. The non-war party may not group up, and may not join a battle. They are strictly for travel and PVE and will only be met with players who intent to look for them exclusively.

 

Some rules and regulations

Timers need to be individualized, because the Privateer flag has the ability to immediately close someone off into battle, so to counter this the Naval Officer flag will hold a 5 minute timer as apposed to a 2 minute one. The reason for this is because the battles are locked to 2x br ROE, so keeping it open for longer duration will not throw off balance, as the fight will continue either way.

Privateers will not be able to tag a Naval Officer's battle group, even of similar size. The reverse is possible. This is because you're able to take out solo Naval Officers not in a group and any size fleet of Non-War party flags. The point of a privateer is to make money, not be stupid.

Non-War Party flags cannot be tagged by a group of Naval Officers,  In fact the moment you relinquish your flag on OW you will immediately be open to attack from anyone, so don't leave your group to attack someone.

Groups of Naval Officers will not receive reinforcements from AI ever. Solo Naval Officers not in a group and came right from a port without joining one or leaving one before returning to port, will receive a single ship as reinforcement to battle a privateer's 2-3x group. Only in the R zone though.

 

The reasoning.
ROE is a complicated thing, 1 size does not fit all in this case so you have to have multiple solutions to what is an issue with the limitations and dualisms of OW and combat instance.  Because we the player are unable to compensate and limit our actions in order to invest into better actions, solution(s) must be tried in order to tie down pvp into something that the players can handle and the devs can manage. Right now pvp is set blindly on everyone on the server with no control or restraint. Players are meeting at invisible walls to fight battles or rather posture in front of the enemy like a band of baboons than fight a battle.

The conclusion
One standard ROE is not enough, we need more like 3 or 4 to cover all the aspects that play into OW. Clearly the days of wild west ROE are unsustainable and a huge strain on the playerbase, and worse do not compliment the game in any way.

 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[jodgi]

This is a good idea!

I'm afraid it's a bit too complicated to be accepted.

Remember admin seems extremely reluctant to consider BR limits even in the love/hate patrol zones. It would be a hard sell.

That does not mean we shouldn't iron out the kinks and try! I love crazy ideas.

We need to think of everything that can be gamed or exploited. Then we need to identify things that would frustrate or confuse players.

I think insta-close with our current small circles is out of the question. Around 90 secs is minimum and 2 min is fine. We can't serve solo players on a silver platter to tiny gank squads.

I need to lookup admins tentative dismissal of anti-gank patrol zone ROE and think...

[Slim McSauce]

6 hours ago, jodgi said:

This is a good idea!

I'm afraid it's a bit too complicated to be accepted.

Remember admin seems extremely reluctant to consider BR limits even in the love/hate patrol zones. It would be a hard sell.

That does not mean we shouldn't iron out the kinks and try! I love crazy ideas.

We need to think of everything that can be gamed or exploited. Then we need to identify things that would frustrate or confuse players.

I think insta-close with our current small circles is out of the question. Around 90 secs is minimum and 2 min is fine. We can't serve solo players on a silver platter to tiny gank squads.

I need to lookup admins tentative dismissal of anti-gank patrol zone ROE and think...

I know it's a long suggestion but you really didn't read over it enough. Statement such as "We can't serve solo players on a silver platter to tiny gank squads." completely ignores very important points within the suggestion itself! 

Obviously we can't just let people get picked off on open world into a battle where they may likely lose. That's death, but it's not what I propose. The privateer flag is the only flag that can do this and it cannot be done against someone with the "Naval Officer flag" ticked. The idea really isn't as complicated as you think, we already saw a taste of this sort of thing with the smuggler flag which this idea is based of off, so we know it can be done.

Admin is not the sole bearer of what will or will not be added, if a community wants something and that something holds to admin's discretion because HE is the coder so he knows what can or cannot be done, then it may be allowed ex shallow draft 5th rates being allowed into shallow water pbs which is not only a very good clean change, it didn't take but a few days to do with an already heavy work load.

If Admin will not consider this idea, or the idea of this idea then he will see in a few months all the complaints on the forums manifest themselves into an even saltier population in the future. The push for people to do certain things works only some of the time. You will not get people to suddenly participate in RvR/OW pvp without tying it down to something managable for the regular player (80th percentile)

Edited December 20, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Hullabaloo]

I like this. 

Obviously the downside I can see is that it might be restrictive for a small group that might fit into more than one category and obviously you always have to look for possible exploits:

Eg 1. 3 x 4th rates are cruising enemy water for pvp and select Naval Officer flag looking for enemy fleets to fight. On the way they come across 5 players, who are transporting goods with Indiaman and 4th/3rd rate escorts who have selected non-war party flag. BR of trading players (combined) is actually much higher but the 3 4th rates would not be able to tag anything.

Eg 2. Cruising around in a Surprise as Privateer, I come across a player with 4 Indiaman, I cannot tag because of 3 x BR limit?

Eg.3 I want to move some stuff to La Tortue in prime time in a singe Indiaman. I might select Naval Officer flag, because if i run into a big Naval Officer group then I have a better chance of running or they might not even bother with me. But if i run into a solo or small group of 'Privateers' (probably a lot more likely) they won't be able to tag me, even though I am precisely the kind of target they might be looking for.

I think I have got this right? I still really like the idea though, I can see how it might solve a lot more problems than it might create.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Hullabaloo 'The Thief'

[Macjimm]

Seems convoluted but hey, I like complex.  Perhaps I don't understand these rules but can a trader still operate like they do now?

So can we sail with no flag?  To allow the current ROE to apply.

Example: Trader wants to be a target to everyone, which is why the War server is used rather than the Peace server. Some traders like the excitement from the risk that comes with being open to attack.  The risk makes it exciting, so all ships should be potential threats.  

Also the trader must be able to tag first, anything that is a potential threat.  Counter tagging is an important defense available to sheep.  It allows a chance to gain advantageous positioning inside the battle instance.   Sheep may be able to choose a position best suited to flee.

 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Macjimm

[Hullabaloo]

41 minutes ago, Macjimm said:

Also the trader must be able to tag first, anything that is a potential threat

This is a good point, it would eliminate the ability to defensive tag for traders (assuming they had 'non-war' flag). Just shows how when you try to create RoE mechanics, exploits and flaws start appearing. Then when you try to 'repair' them you open up new ones, repeat.

[Macjimm]

 

Game mechanics can be over the moon complex, but sometimes the simplest rules work best.  With NA Slim McSauce is on the correct course, the rules here are already exceedingly complex.   His type of suggestions are needed.  Adding restrictions to balance e-sport competition often opens up the neccessity for additional counter restrictions. It rapidly goes exponential

20 minutes ago, Hullabaloo 'The Thief' said:

Just shows how when you try to create RoE mechanics, exploits and flaws start appearing. .

Edited December 20, 2018 by Macjimm

[Slim McSauce]

23 hours ago, Hullabaloo 'The Thief' said:

I like this. 

Obviously the downside I can see is that it might be restrictive for a small group that might fit into more than one category and obviously you always have to look for possible exploits:

Eg 1. 3 x 4th rates are cruising enemy water for pvp and select Naval Officer flag looking for enemy fleets to fight. On the way they come across 5 players, who are transporting goods with Indiaman and 4th/3rd rate escorts who have selected non-war party flag. BR of trading players (combined) is actually much higher but the 3 4th rates would not be able to tag anything.

Eg 2. Cruising around in a Surprise as Privateer, I come across a player with 4 Indiaman, I cannot tag because of 3 x BR limit?

Eg.3 I want to move some stuff to La Tortue in prime time in a singe Indiaman. I might select Naval Officer flag, because if i run into a big Naval Officer group then I have a better chance of running or they might not even bother with me. But if i run into a solo or small group of 'Privateers' (probably a lot more likely) they won't be able to tag me, even though I am precisely the kind of target they might be looking for.

I think I have got this right? I still really like the idea though, I can see how it might solve a lot more problems than it might create.

Good points. This is where game design really matters because everything has to mesh together, really a job for the developers, but this is my suggestion so I'll do my best with what I have. Let me tell you this entire suggestion is pretty solid, you may not like some of my retorts but it's not like I didn't think very carefully about as many scenarios as possible when writing the OP. I will try to address all points.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.

Eg 1. 3 x 4th rates are cruising enemy water for pvp and select Naval Officer flag looking for enemy fleets to fight. On the way they come across 5 players, who are transporting goods with Indiaman and 4th/3rd rate escorts who have selected non-war party flag. BR of trading players (combined) is actually much higher but the 3 4th rates would not be able to tag anything.

Quotes from OP

"Privateers will not be able to tag a Naval Officer's battle group, even of similar size."

"Non-War Party flags cannot be tagged by a group of Naval Officers,  In fact the moment you relinquish your flag on OW you will immediately be open to attack from anyone, so don't leave your group to attack someone."

To be more clear....
A Privateer MAY tag a Naval Officer, IF that officer is not in a group////
Non-War Party flags CANNOT be tagged by a GROUP of Naval Officers. IF a group is made, and someone LEAVES that group, that will be open to standard ROE, and unable to return to the group as punishment for poor planning. As well as perhaps no rewards for all battles until he returns to port and reticks his flag.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eg 2. Cruising around in a Surprise as Privateer, I come across a player with 4 Indiaman, I cannot tag because of 3 x BR limit?

Depends how much of a problem you see this as. 4 indiamans if they have guns is a pretty heavy force to take on for a single frigate. I think if a player has invested fleet perks and the money into 4 indiamans, that they should not have to be bothered by a single surprise which when you take into account everything, may be able to sink a single indiaman before getting sunk himself or forced to run. Sorry, if the community doesn't like this the BR's can be changed, as well as tag limits if it really comes to that. But a 3x limit is very generous imo and you'll be hard pressed to find me a situation where you should be able to tag a force 3x stronger than you when chances are you're creating a bigger waste of time than it's worth.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eg.3 I want to move some stuff to La Tortue in prime time in a singe Indiaman. I might select Naval Officer flag, because if i run into a big Naval Officer group then I have a better chance of running or they might not even bother with me. But if i run into a solo or small group of 'Privateers' (probably a lot more likely) they won't be able to tag me, even though I am precisely the kind of target they might be looking for.

Another good critical point, but a Privateer may tag a Naval Officer if he is solo (the reason I had this rule to begin with was because the benefit of the NO flag is suppose to go to GROUPS of players, looking for other groups, it's not meant for solo players to use.

If you wanted to do this anyway, you may still find yourself being attacked by groups of Naval Officers who feel it's worth it to relinquish their flag and/or rewards, as well as being open to attack by anyone in order to sink you/capture your ship. In that case although it's a cheap thing to do, it doesn't go unpunished and should be reserved for only the most desperate situations, as you will not be able to return to a normal status until they re-tick their flag at port.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[jodgi]

38 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

it's not meant for solo players to use.

But won't they?

If I was to move some stuff in an indiaman I could make a group with a friend (or a few) to be safe from privateers?

[Hethwill]

Just now, jodgi said:

But won't they?

If I was to move some stuff in an indiaman I could make a group with a friend (or a few) to be safe from privateers?

That's multiplayer  in a multiplayer game 😎

[Slim McSauce]

8 minutes ago, jodgi said:

But won't they?

If I was to move some stuff in an indiaman I could make a group with a friend (or a few) to be safe from privateers?

You punish yourself doing this, instead of being attacked 1 or 2 privateers you will be attacked by a group of Naval officers who notice you trying to be sneaky with your flag. Not only will you give the enemy an easier time killing you, you give them better rewards as well.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Slim McSauce