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Patch 29. Sextant, shallow water changes, improvements in the User interface.

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1 hour ago, LeBoiteux said:

@Licinio Chiavari I've never said speed profiles should be identical for all ships. I never said there shouldn't be differences in ships. No need to be extreme.

I just said I'd like to see the gap in speed when into the wind (0-90°) reduced between square-rigged and fore-and-aft-rigged ships of the shallows. I think the extent of this gap can be discussed. This gap is a matter of gameplay, not a dry historical data or a taboo, especially in a game that mixes ships from different periods. The current gap could be reduced without killing all differences. 

Right now, LRQ is the 6th-rate that is the most used. There are several reasons for that. Being redeemable is one. But her sailing profile is another. Make the Rattlesnake a DLC and I'm not that sure the Rattle would become as used as LRQ. I'm sure the Prince is more used than the Rattle. Shallow water square-rigged ships (Rattle, Surprise, Cerberus, Renommée...) need to be funnier to sail.

It is not killing every difference.

Prince was used as today Requin. And she's still used missing the DLC or to hunt the Requin herself. And she is capable of.

Corvette vs corvette fights are funny (even if I do not like them being the most unreal due to incredible nimbleness of such ship in respect of real ones).

Simply a corvette or light frigate is not suited to hunt a fore-aft; aside in particular tactical situations.

Only solution should have all sail profiles more real... nerfing all upwind speeds, making a ship STOPPING as close hauling more than her closest point. Making a tack being a true pain on a square rigged.
And having no ship being faster at close haul than at broad reach. Even Xebecs, Schooners or Herm-Brig like Prince.

 

In place to make square rigged sailing profile MORE unreal (making them able to chase a fore-aft), add more fore-aft ships or buff those already ingame.

I repeated, for example, often that 7th rate crews are unbalanced, game wise, for example.
In any rate, the biggest ship, especially if with buffed crew, can be a match for the smallest of higher rate (Bucetaure same as Victory; Bellona pushed to 700 being close to S.Pavel; Agamennon being close to Wasa; Indef being close to a Connie; aside the huge Requin crew - historical in any xebec, still H.Rattle buffed crew makes her close to a Cerberus).

Only exception are 7th rates: Privateer even buffed pre-hammock nerf was unable to hit 100. Now sitting at best around 80... so no match for 110+ 6th rates.

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fore & aft rigged  ships only point right now is smuggling ( is it still even a thing with all the alts and open ports ?) and counter smuggling, if a change should come it should be boosting schooners downwind, it makes no sense to be slower at broad beam than at close haul... they should be the privateer / pirate choice but any square rigged trader just have to sail downwind to escape + have enough firepower to dismast or crew shock easily a privateer.

7th rates only card is the ability to escape from any fight it can t win, meaning nearly any fight, make corvettes able to catch them upwind ? For what ? Curb stomp them from 98% useless to 100% ? As if xebec was not sufficient as a threat ? Where the power creep will stop in the shallow ?

Boost the 7th rates ability to fight and take punishment + boost their speed at large and downwind, not the other way around. 

 

Edited by Baptiste Gallouédec
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8 hours ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

Prince was used as today Requin. And she's still used missing the DLC or to hunt the Requin herself. And she is capable of.

We agree, Prince, like LRQ, is used because of its sailing profile.

8 hours ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

Corvette vs corvette fights are funny (even if I do not like them being the most unreal due to incredible nimbleness of such ship in respect of real ones).

Simply a corvette or light frigate is not suited to hunt a fore-aft; aside in particular tactical situations.

Indeed, IRL, LRQ xebec was meant to fight against xebecs. And IRL, most square-rigged light frigates / corvettes available in game certainly fought mainly other square-rigged ships.

Unfortunately, in OW NA, there's no arranged corvette vs corvette fight or xebecs vs xebecs fight. I'd fully support that and would enjoy their differences in sailing profiles.

But in NA, there are fights mixing all the ships available in NA from several periods. However, while square-rigged 12-pdr frigates and bigger ships will mainly meet  square-rigged frigates/Sol, the square-rigged shallow ships are meant to meet 'fore and aft' LRQ or Prince in shallows.

IMO, something could be done for those square-rigged shallow ships in term of gameplay to make them funnier/more used in NA. However, I perfectly get your opposite point of view, even if it gives no hint to make NA square-rigged shallow ships more interesting.

8 hours ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

In place to make square rigged sailing profile MORE unreal (making them able to chase a fore-aft), add more fore-aft ships or buff those already ingame.

Once again, no need to be extreme. I've never said a square rigged should be able to chase a fore-and-aft. I said the gap in speed during a fight while 'into the wind' (0-90°) could be reduced to make it funnier to maneuver a square-rigged shallow ship against a Prince/LRQ....

 Exemple of this gap, at 30°  

  • 2 kt for a square-rigged shallow ship (Rattlesnake, Cerberus...) 
  • 9 kt for the Prince
  • 11 kt for a LRQ.

This reducing could be done either by buffing square-rigged shallow ships and/or nerfing LRQ/Prince/...

Or not.

 

Edited by LeBoiteux
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1 hour ago, LeBoiteux said:

...

 

Good points.

Still. In truth no sailing boat moves at 30°. None. Not even America Cup starships.
Closest angle is around 45 usually, 35-40° may be. Closing more doesnt mean you'll slowly slow down. It means you'll stop. Period.

Square rigged real closest angle was around 70°... and going VERY slowly mainly with jibs/spankers and with a lot of leeway.
Foreaft were able to close up to 50-60°... so simply in a direction other ships do not go. For this reason schooners were so used by pirates: able to out run any battleship upwind AND super loaded with angry swordsman... to board an crapply prepared trader.
And this to remember that any ship top speed is around broad reach. For any.

So I could accept your proposal... when a Schooner (or lateen rigged ship) top speed will be at broad reach (more or less)... and slower the slower I close haul. BUT slowing far less than square rigged. This way you'll get a smaller differential closehaul... but you'll have to face foreaft ships pretty fast also downwind.

The fact frigates and corvettes even think to engage bigger square rigged ship is another realism issue of the game: real ships were a) far less nimble (a frigate could tack in like 15 minutes) and b) SoL real broadside damage was enormously higher on a lighter ship.

Having sailed, and having sailed even a squarerigged, I'd like a full realism game... still I understand it can work... and could end being pretty straight forward: 2 ships make a couple slow manouvers, then go side to side and dismantle each other with a boarding in the meantime: this was XVIII-XIX naval combat.

Now we have NA, that gives a nice feeling, far away from realism, still a feeling of sailing, of combat, with a mix (to be still balanced) of skill, experience (more imo) and gear.

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Probably not the best time to say this but I have to be open and honest. I do not like the current feel of pvp. I do not like how most battles are some form of gank, whether it be BR or raw numbers. I do not like repairs extending these chases and people escaping from battle that they could fight.. Why can't we have fights where the expectation going in is to compete with the enemy in a straight up battle? How come we don't even up the brs and work on ship and mod balance? Why ignore balance just because this is an MMO? Not everything is solved with a gank.

Edited by Slim McSauce

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In short I think the answer is, this is a war game in regard to gank. Personally I don’t care about ganks. But devs have said there will be a hole patrolezone where ppl can go if they want duels. 

Regarding repairs personally I am fine as they are right now. Sometime you have a short fight others you have a tough. Personally like the last most. And I proberbly lose more than I win.

Why ppl run insted of fighting. Think there is 2 reasons that matter skil and expensive ships. NA is a skill based game, as it should be. So I know when I fight a lot of guys I am not going to win, so best chance to save my ship is to run. Why would I try to save my ship insted of having a fight. Ships are expensive, so if I lose it, I will have to spend lots of time sailing to get new ressources. High demand on skill and   expensiv ship would be my guess.

To even up the br does not even up a fight. Skill and Wood and upgrades matters. Just an example would you say a trader in general would have a balanced fight against war ship of same br. Limited Br will just cause even more trouble. But just make devs change it, then we test it. But my guess on what happens is.

- The elites k/d goes skyhigh

- Traders get free to kill

- Nobody will try to help a new guy that have been attacked, proberbly only guys that they know are good enough. And never ever against the best players. Best to only lose one ship.

- Ppl will stay in habor until the hunters are gone again. 

@Slim McSauce a ballanced game is not just all abouth br. Skills, Wood and upgrades matter but skill is proberbly the most important thing. So if you want balanced fight based on br, then I think you at same time have to nerf the value of skill. Could easy be done. Positiv k/D you get a negativ bonus, a negativ k/d you get a positive buff. But are we really ready to pay that price to get balanced fights? 

I say no.

 

Edited by staun

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17 minutes ago, staun said:

In short I think the answer is, this is a war game in regard to gank. Personally I don’t care about ganks. But devs have said there will be a hole patrolezone where ppl can go if they want duels. 

Regarding repairs personally I am fine as they are right now. Sometime you have a short fight others you have a tough. Personally like the last most. And I proberbly lose more than I win.

Why ppl run insted of fighting. Think there is 2 reasons that matter skil and expensive ships. NA is a skill based game, as it should be. So I know when I fight a lot of guys I am not going to win, so best chance to save my ship is to run. Why would I try to save my ship insted of having a fight. Ships are expensive, so if I lose it, I will have to spend lots if time sailing to get new ressources. High demand on skill and   expensiv ship would be my guess.

To even up the br does not even up a fight. Skill and Wood and upgrades matters. Just an example would you say a trader in general would have a balanced fight against war ship of same br. Limited Br will just cause even more trouble. But just make devs change it, then we test it. But my guess on what happens is.

- The elites k/d goes skyhigh

- Traders get free to kill

- Nobody will try to help a new guy that have been attacked, proberbly only guys that the know are good enough. And never ever against the best players. Best to only lose one ship.

- Ppl will stay in habor until the hunters are gone again. 

@Slim McSauce a ballanced game is not just all abouth br. Skills, Wood and upgrades matter but skill is proberbly the most important thing. So if you want balanced fight based on br, then I think you at same time have to nerf the value of skill. Could easy be done. Positiv k/D you get a negativ bonus, a negativ k/d you get a positive buff. But are we really ready to pay that price to get balanced fights? 

I say NO, HELL NO.

 

I think you raise the counterpoint pretty well, but I just don't see the use in not trying to tune battles for a more competitive approach, more willingness to pvp and better battles in general with less filler.

You create all these bonuses that have's benefit from more than have nots, so much so that balance is completely tipped off and you can't even recreate a even battle anymore because it takes like 40 noobs to take out 15 good players because that's how far mods and repairs have taken us from center balance of 1:1 being even up to 1.5x which is the general force required for an attack to take place against a defense. Instead it takes like 5.0x to attack properly, that's why ganks exists, out of necessity.

So ganks aren't the problem, they're actually the result of poor balancing. If the game was properly balanced it would follow the natural rules of law. (a single dominant Chimpanzee can be taken out by 3 chimps, each 1/3rd of his the alpha's strength, or for better example 2 chimps with half his strength)

So surmise from that. If a group of 3 dominant players in NA are winning more than 65% of battles against 6 much less dominant, maybe even carebearish players, then you have a balance issue on your hands, likely caused by the gap between a good ship and a bad ship increasing with the more mods, ship types, and now ship qualities.

 

Edited by Slim McSauce
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Yes we have a balance problem, but limited BR will not work unless you get a prober balance in the game. As long as skill is so important I have a hard time to see how you would fix it. Plus I am not fan of a system that might ruin grp play. I like when we go out in a small grp 2-4 players. Would hate a game that made it impossible.

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13 hours ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

when a Schooner (or lateen rigged ship) top speed will be at broad reach (more or less)... and slower the slower I close haul. BUT slowing far less than square rigged. This way you'll get a smaller differential closehaul... but you'll have to face foreaft ships pretty fast also downwind.

Currently, some examples at 135° :

  • fore-and-aft-rigged / lateen rigged ships
    • LRQ : 10,67 kt
    • Prince 11,9 kt
    • Privateer 12,04 kt
  • square-rigged shallow ships
    • Surprise : 12,13 kt
    • Rattlesnake heavy : 12, 68 kt

Source

 

Edited by LeBoiteux

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12 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

So ganks aren't the problem, they're actually the result of poor balancing. If the game was properly balanced it would follow the natural rules of law. (a single dominant Chimpanzee can be taken out by 3 chimps, each 1/3rd of his the alpha's strength, or for better example 2 chimps with half his strength)

So surmise from that. If a group of 3 dominant players in NA are winning more than 65% of battles against 6 much less dominant, maybe even carebearish players, then you have a balance issue on your hands, likely caused by the gap between a good ship and a bad ship increasing with the more mods, ship types, and now ship qualities.

You're making a common mistake here, ignoring (or downplaying) the factor that skill has. 3 very good players (as long as they don't make a careless mistake) will always win against 6 carebear/noob players. Thats 2:1 odds and very much fightable. The misplaced-assumption here is that the mods and repairs have made the good players good....well thats only partially correct. Put a good player in an average ship and a bad player in a great ship and the good player will still win, even though he's at a disadvantage because of ships.

Evidence of this can be found in our old version of NA. When everyone was sailing a gold ship with all the best mods (talking about before the implementation of RNG gold light carriages and carpenters). Even then, noobs still lost 2 and 3v1 against good players. Surely you've watched some of Liquicity's videos of his Surprise wrecking some noobs in larger ships. Even myself, an average player at the time, was able to get some pretty nice victories back then against less-skilled but well-equipped players. 

But sometimes, even now, players have a choice to sail better gear, but choose not to. I've sunk several Hercules and Requins that were built with combinations of oak, mahogany, and crewspace. :lol: That player made a deliberate choice to sail garbage. Didn't buy it that way, didn't craft that because thats all they had....no....they scrolled through a list of all the woods and picked that. If they chose that because they didn't know better, then thats OK. Its a shame we don't have an in-game comparison tool for those players who don't know there are outside resources to do that. But there is another reason why the player chose those crappy builds, and this is the main point I'm getting at:

The player chose to sail a sub-par ship because he thought he knew better. I've seen it dozens of times in US nation chat: "build with mahogany for the crew protection! that way you'll retain crew better during the fight!" or something like "Use Diagaonal Riders to make your ship tougher!"
Bad advice is more dangerous than no advice. When a player has managed a few PvP kills, maybe even a bit of successful solo hunting, he often becomes overconfident. Thinks he knows all the best builds, tactics, tricks, etc. Naturally, being the nice player he is, he tries to help out his nation by spreading the advice. This problem was so rampant in US nation that while I was there, I tried to help out by offering advice on ship types, tactics, and how to safely supply your clan with teak and white oak. I was told I was wrong and had no clue. :unsure: 
Like, I was literally sinking you with impunity a few weeks ago now you're gonna tell me I have no idea....oooooookay.

Anyways, that kind of attitude is a large reason why you so often see a fleet of noobs wrecked by good players. Too many Admirals with the wrong idea about how to do PvP, making the wrong choices in wood types, upgrades, etc. spreading bad information and tactics wherever they sail.

All that wall of text is how the skill gap plays a part ^

 

How much effect does gear and repairs have?

A lot. I've posted plenty of times about how unlimited repairs and the gear gap has made lopsided battles easier to win than ever before. Looking through screenshots proves this. 2016 NA if you saw a 4v18 (the 18 having some large ships and small ships) and the 4 won....you were astounded. Some major skill there. Now anyone can do it if they have 4 players who fight well together and the right gear. Just sail in a tight group, maintaining the wind and spamming 5 1 till you win.

 

So you're not wrong in saying that gear and unlimited reps have upset the quality of combat in NA, but thats not quite the whole story. For as long as there is a choice in how you build and equip your ships, there will be some unbalance in combat. Someone will always make the wrong choice in gear. Thats a skill-deficiency (not being skilled enough to know what to pick from the list of acceptable mods and woods).

That kind of brings up the topic of meta choices and the benefits/negatives of having metas in a game like NA....but thats a discussion for another post and I've rambled far enough off-topic as it is.

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5 hours ago, William Death said:

You're making a common mistake here, ignoring (or downplaying) the factor that skill has. 3 very good players (as long as they don't make a careless mistake) will always win against 6 carebear/noob players. Thats 2:1 odds and very much fightable. The misplaced-assumption here is that the mods and repairs have made the good players good....well thats only partially correct. Put a good player in an average ship and a bad player in a great ship and the good player will still win, even though he's at a disadvantage because of ships.

Evidence of this can be found in our old version of NA. When everyone was sailing a gold ship with all the best mods (talking about before the implementation of RNG gold light carriages and carpenters). Even then, noobs still lost 2 and 3v1 against good players. Surely you've watched some of Liquicity's videos of his Surprise wrecking some noobs in larger ships. Even myself, an average player at the time, was able to get some pretty nice victories back then against less-skilled but well-equipped players. 

Exactly my point. 3 good players ALWAYS smash 6th noobs. THAT'S HOW YOU KNOW IT'S UNBALANCED.  In REAL LIFE a 3v1 is more often than not a death sentence. If this number is does not reflect the game, then it's not real life that's the problem. You see what I mean?

I'm not disregarding skill, I'm saying skill was already enough. You confuse skill with just knowing what to do, what woods and mods to put on. That's not skill. Skill is how you sail a ship and if things were decided on skill alone (before gold ships and mods) it's Sea Trials, where all ships were the same woods, same mods,  same number of repairs for EVERYONE, completely equal footing nothing but you 

Remember when battles were only 3 repairs and you never saw a fleet battle where one side didn't have loses? That's because fights were closer when all there was was sailing and not gearing. That's what the game should go back to, because an action game has to be balanced or the action isn't fun.

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1 hour ago, Slim McSauce said:

Exactly my point. 3 good players ALWAYS smash 6th noobs. THAT'S HOW YOU KNOW IT'S UNBALANCED.  In REAL LIFE a 3v1 is more often than not a death sentence. If this number is does not reflect the game, then it's not real life that's the problem. You see what I mean?

I'm not disregarding skill, I'm saying skill was already enough. You confuse skill with just knowing what to do, what woods and mods to put on. That's not skill. Skill is how you sail a ship and if things were decided on skill alone (before gold ships and mods) it's Sea Trials, where all ships were the same woods, same mods,  same number of repairs for EVERYONE, completely equal footing nothing but you 

Remember when battles were only 3 repairs and you never saw a fleet battle where one side didn't have loses? That's because fights were closer when all there was was sailing and not gearing. That's what the game should go back to, because an action game has to be balanced or the action isn't fun.

Good points. I repeat by some time that 80% of what is called skill in NA, in the end, is experience.

The problem indeed is not 3 veterans killing 6 newbies.

The problem is 4 rich veterans killing 10-12+ medium players (not totally crappy ones) due to a mix of skill, experience and gear gap. Gear gap that widens the experience one, both because a veteran knows HOW to fit a ship, and because he can make these shiny mods shine really.

Shiny mods that are ludicrously expensive... so are for the majority of time in the hands... of the same veterans who values them AND are rich enough (also thanks to real P2W of the game: ALTS; or we want really speak about hoarding poods? because I remember the effect of poods+32carro of my Endy on a Trinco maho/sab: less than 3 full broadsides - meaning a couple minutes - and he had no side) to afford them and (not forget) afford to lose them too.

 

I repeatly proposed to make mods in different tiers with different accessbility.
Top - super rare and super expensive:                                  Improved Sextant (speed +4%)
Superior - quite expensive but affordable and available:  Copper Plating (speed +3%)
Good - easily accessble for a price:                                      NHR (speed +2.5%) - 400 doubs.
Cheap - obvious:                                                                       Gazelle (speed +2% - my update) - 200 doubs or even less.

AND NOT ANYMORE STACKABLE, not falling on 4 different categories! And the same for all groups of mods.

Devs added mods groups... and we can still stack an hefty amount of bonuses... like the first 3 speed mods for a bulky +9.5%: so my t/wo is FASTER (3.5+9.5=+13%) than noobish failfit fir/fir (+10%) ship.
How is he espected to fight me, even 2v1? making me laughing?.

This way best speed difference between a cheap fitting and top notch would be only 2%, and from a still easy to get one even less.
So yes, still, the rich veteran can use super mods... but spending 100s many folds more to get only 2%.

The same tiered gear for all mods. Then make Crooked hull giving even 4% speed... BECAUSE IT HAS A MALUS (so few reasonable PvPer would ever use it) while Naval Clock has also a secondary bonus! Make Cotton Sails even 3%... because Copper has not malus and even a tiny extra bonus. And so on. New drop mods could stay balanced that way as very particular (make Light Planking FASTER than Crooked with a bigger malus to HP - as it is; Wood Sheathing (+1% speed and +2% HP) is a good example of particular mod).

And damn reduce/rework wood differences AND MAKE OTHER WOODS VIABLE. We know pretty well that the only reason to not make ALL SHIP T/T or T/WO (and LO/WO for PBs) IS ONLY THE POSSIBILITY. There's not a damned reason to use Cag, Sab, Oak, Maho, WO (and crew space now; but it was a non-sense by itself). So no reason for 5 frames out 7 and 4 plankings out of 6 (= two thirds of woods are crap, I'd underline).

Not to speak about that this cluster of woods and mods that are CRAP is ONLY A TRAP FOR NEW PLAYERS... giving the veterans further advantage.

 

These changes and limiting repairs in combat would solve these impossible feats.

And I would like to underline.
The problem of these feats (4v12+) is that they are not good for the game. Because it's utterly humiliating for the losing side. And some more humiliation later... people quits: because they play to enjoy.

Anyone can accept being smashed by a gank team. Anyone can accept to lose to a better player. Anyone can accept to be badly beaten even if 2v1. Not so many would accept to be humiliated a dozen time even if outnumbering 4 to 1 the winning side. This kills the "morale" of the players.

Skill alone should mean winning 2v3.
Skill+gear(reduced) should mean winning 1v2.
Gear(reduced) should mean surviving 1v2.
Skill+gear should mean killing some 1v3 BUT IN THE END DIE.

Edited by Licinio Chiavari
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Just now, Licinio Chiavari said:

Good points. I repeat by some time that 80% of what is called skill in NA, in the end, is experience.

The problem indeed is not 3 veterans killing 6 newbies.

The problem is 4 rich veterans killing 10-12+ medium players (not totally crappy ones) due to a mix of skill, experience and gear gap. Gear gap that widens the experience one, both because a veteran knows HOW to fit a ship, and because he can make these shiny mods shine really.

Exactly this, you've got it on the nose. The rest of your post is golden I just wanted to express quicksatisfaction with your understanding. Your idea is developer-worthy

Edited by Slim McSauce
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4 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Exactly my point. 3 good players ALWAYS smash 6th noobs. THAT'S HOW YOU KNOW IT'S UNBALANCED.  In REAL LIFE a 3v1 is more often than not a death sentence. If this number is does not reflect the game, then it's not real life that's the problem. You see what I mean?

Yeah, I get that. But the point is this: 6 noobs will lose, regardless of gear and ships being equal. Focused fire, angling, protecting the weak side, holding the weather gauge, managing when you repair (even if you only have 1 repair to use, there is still a technique to when you should pop it, doing it right is the difference between losing all side HP or only half, or losing a mast & getting half back vs denying the demast altogether).... all this is foreign to "noobs." So that argument doesn't hold. Now if you had argued that 3 good players should lose (at least one player) vs 6 "average" or "decent" players....that would have been a more logical argument.

But notice I'm not disagreeing with you, there IS an issue with balance in NA combat...I'm just trying to point out that it stems from a variety of sources, not just mods or wood types or repairs. A lot is experience and skill related

I consider myself to be pretty quick on the uptake of things in NA, but it took me hundreds of hours of playing, both with good players and with noobs against good players, just to even begin to understand combat in NA. There are so many layers to it (or there were, before unlimited repairs and super-OP mods weakened the quality of battles). I didn't know anything about the endpoints of mast hitboxes for sections until a duelist told me. I didn't know that repairing just before the mast fell was the best use of your one repair. I didn't know that firing ball into a ship thats on fire will spread the fire faster. I didn't know that timing your hull repair could make more efficient use of it. I didn't know just how useless HP was in comparison to thickness. I didn't understand the importance of better turn rate till I fought someone who did. Stuff I'd heard called hacks, I came to learn, was just skilled players figuring out nuances of combat that a lot of average players will never know of. This is the experience gap @Licinio Chiavari refers too.
And it makes up a large part of the skill difference. And there's no way around it. I can sit in TS and speak at great length about the necessity to carefully position your ship and time your turns so that you bounce 80% of the enemy's broadside but can get the angle on him and fire quickly enough to roll every gun into his ship....but a noob won't understand this. I could maybe link a video but that won't help much either. Nothing but hands-on experience will suffice.

 

4 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

You confuse skill with just knowing what to do, what woods and mods to put on. That's not skill. Skill is how you sail a ship and if things were decided on skill alone (before gold ships and mods) it's Sea Trials, where all ships were the same woods, same mods,  same number of repairs for EVERYONE, completely equal footing nothing but you 

Ehhh...I think knowing how to set your ship up IS skill. Its at least a part of it. A golfer can have the best swing in the world but if he chooses a putter when he should be using a driver....he will have difficulties. But surely a skilled golfer will know which club to select. (I don't golf, but I understand there is a reason for the different types of golfclubs).
Similarly in NA, you don't get to be a good player without learning that you should choose Teak/WO instead of Sab/Oak. Or that you shouldn't stack copper plating with floating battery.

I won't argue that the greatest test of skill is when all things are equal except the skipper behind the wheel. This much is true. But people don't seem to enjoy games as much when everything is cookie cutter. So we have customizable wood types and upgrades.

My favorite version of NA was early-to-mid 2016 when we had only 4 wood types--all useful ones--and one to three mods of each type (speed, gunnery, boarding, reload, etc.)--all with small bonuses. The maximum difference between the slowest and fastest build was ~8% give or take a bit. Similar for HP, reload, boarding, etc. The ONLY issue I had with that system was RNG for a few of the best mods (like marines and carpentry teams).

Re-implement that system but where everything is craftable and I'd be much happier with the balance of mods. Right now we have too many mods--too many useless ones, especially--and too great a gap between quality of gear.

4 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Remember when battles were only 3 repairs and you never saw a fleet battle where one side didn't have loses? That's because fights were closer when all there was was sailing and not gearing. That's what the game should go back to, because an action game has to be balanced or the action isn't fun.

Its nitpicking...but there have ALWAYS been exceptions to that "rule." I was in one of the top RvR clans, and we prided ourselves on our ability to create perfect screenshots, where everyone (or all but one or two) on our side is alive while most of the enemy team is sunk. This is 2016 and 2017 NA. One hull rep. One sail rep. Everyone had a gold ship. Only a few mods of each type, most craftable. Exception to this is the last one, which was just after the wipe and name change from PvP2 to PvP Global....current combat system, but most everyone was using their dev-provided lo/wo Indefs and Cedar/Cedar Surprises so thats about as close to even gear as you can get.

EDIT: apparently you can't edit spoilers? One didn't format the way I wanted it to so there is some text within the spoiler below which was supposed to be outside that spoiler...and then there is also another spoiler with more screenshots that is supposed to be at the end of the post.

 

488B7C2DCC562B06107F82901FABC798D1448B7A

 

86A7630C601211C6A01350A3FD65E81B7EE09306

F16997634A275F2B84273FE0C542B14AE6FBC785

D43AA2373EC94DFDA4032373D23823D1C0B8EC14

I posted those not as a brag or anything (the ship they call bragging rights for these battles sank ages ago), but to point out that even when things are equal, that doesn't mean one side is bound to lose ships, even if they win. They're more likely to lose a few, yes. But making everything all the same doesn't mean that NA will become a magical place where even if your team loses badly you get the comfort of knowing you took a few with you. Battles will still be decided by who makes the right choices and who screws up. How well those choices are made will determine what the screenshot looks like at the end of the battle. If skill was similar, then both sides will have losses. If one side absolutely smashed the other and the ships were cookie cutter then you know there was a skill gap.

 

So, I agree with you, repairs need to be limited to 1/1 as they used to be, difference in bonuses between wood types should be smaller, we should have fewer and less-potent mods, and we should have better availability for those mods.

But I won't for a minute try to convince myself that that will make a fleet of noobs anywhere close to a match to a fleet of decent players...because I've been on both sides of the above screenshots, and I know better. What it will do, is reduce the occurrence of these silly fights (which are fun for the winners but ultimately not good for the game):

 
 411F3B12A47C3AD35778590360480F75ACB974DA

We'd have had more of an issue if that Victory hadn't run away ^

DC6E08708938BDCDA8E4256CF3D03D746A4E39F6

(lightly built ships on our side, first rate on the enemy side)^

Edited by William Death
mis-formatted the spoilers
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6 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Exactly this, you've got it on the nose. The rest of your post is golden I just wanted to express quicksatisfaction with your understanding. Your idea is developer-worthy

If you would have read @Licinio Chiavari s excellent post you would have recognized that he is postulating exactly the oposite of what you have postulated. Fitting a ship with the right gear is a skill. The fitting skill makes gear shine. I told you before but...

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@Slim McSauce there will never be two "beta" chimps attacking an Alpha. It's called Alpha for a reason. Only one rules. Only one competes the end boss. 

Besides the biological issues: I will just throw in a number. Imo it takes at least 200-300 PvP battles to unterstand this game for an average player. Yes, skill is experience in this game. That's why you don't see big differences between the Top 5 or 10%. It's a good or a bad day. But be sure that Ram or Reverse or what ever the names, have done this thousands of times. They know every ship in every setup, the wind, etc. And especially very good players will have more than one scenario to kill. Timing of multiple aspects is a key factor in this game and therefore experience will win.

Mods should be non-stackable, but it's delusional to say people who play a lot should have the same gear as those who don't. Gear is only a partly a factor and yes, some of this needs tweaking. Denying that winning by skill (experience) is fine, takes the key reason to play this game from every competetive player. 

Mods like northern carpenters, french rig and bow figures are accessable by everybody and all you need for a decent pvp ship. The rest is skill and that's really okay.

 

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10 hours ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

Not to speak about that this cluster of woods and mods that are CRAP is ONLY A TRAP FOR NEW PLAYERS... giving the veterans further advantage

I agree with every point you’ve made but this one. Woods are a finicky thing, and certain ships do well with different woods. Anecdotal evidence following, I’ve been playing with Indiamen recently. Testing a Teak/Teak in the zone, and a fir/mahog with floatingbattery outside tortue. In the former I wound up dueling if I recall Palatinose or pellew ina BP, I lack a screenshot but perhaps they can attest. It handled horribly and was an easy kill. In the latter I dueled Rediii, and it was a very near loss, him dismasted, boarded once but repelled, and opened fully on one side. I will attach a screen when off work. 

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2 hours ago, John Cavanaugh said:

I agree with every point you’ve made but this one. Woods are a finicky thing, and certain ships do well with different woods. Anecdotal evidence following, I’ve been playing with Indiamen recently. Testing a Teak/Teak in the zone, and a fir/mahog with floatingbattery outside tortue. In the former I wound up dueling if I recall Palatinose or pellew ina BP, I lack a screenshot but perhaps they can attest. It handled horribly and was an easy kill. In the latter I dueled Rediii, and it was a very near loss, him dismasted, boarded once but repelled, and opened fully on one side. I will attach a screen when off work. 

I used more often than others other woods, like fir/maho for fast boarders and maho/maho for others (like last days on an expandable - still afloat - Renomee) down to fir/fir taggers.
We all fought on "subpar" ships, just to test or fun or for very specific purposes or just picking the first shop ship down to fir/fir "failfit.
I dont say they are not usable at all: still they are inferior to "mainstream" woods.

The difference is that a veteran would still get out something out a crappy ship not last knowing her weaknesses.
A casual could think "why not" (not last having not a clue about thickness effect AND how it goes down with damaged armor) ending on an inferior ship, so widening (again) the gap with veterans using better built and fitted ships.

Not to underline (again) that speed difference from heaviest built (LO/WO) to lightest (fir/fir) is a HUGE 19.5%: an abyss that's a technical non-sense.
But also HP difference from highest (the sometimes used but overrated WO/WO) to lightest is an even bigger 28% (imagine starting a battle with both sides at 72% in place of 100%) coupled with 20% of thickness (1 cm per 5 - and in combat effect is even bigger).

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Hotfix was deployed today 11th January

  • Boading muskets bonuses and percentages was significantly lowered. (for example total firepower (resulting from accuracy and %) on Redoutable musket was lowered from 933% to 260%)
  • Chests now appear more often in Hunt and Search and Destroy missions
  • Victory marks cannot now be purchased for doubloons on the War Server (they still can be purchased in the admiralty on the Peace server in the PVE Exchange tab)

 

 

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6 minutes ago, admin said:

Hotfix was deployed today 11th January

  • Boading muskets bonuses and percentages was significantly lowered. (for example total firepower (resulting from accuracy and %) on Redoutable musket was lowered from 933% to 260%)
  • Chests now appear more often in Hunt and Search and Destroy missions
  • Victory marks cannot now be purchased for doubloons on the War Server (they still can be purchased in the admiralty on the Peace server in the PVE Exchange tab)

 

 

This means the next big patch will be deployed a bit later than expected.

So @Sir Texas Sir stop asking for ETAs.

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9 minutes ago, admin said:

Hotfix was deployed today 11th January

  • Boading muskets bonuses and percentages was significantly lowered. (for example total firepower (resulting from accuracy and %) on Redoutable musket was lowered from 933% to 260%)
  • Chests now appear more often in Hunt and Search and Destroy missions
  • Victory marks cannot now be purchased for doubloons on the War Server (they still can be purchased in the admiralty on the Peace server in the PVE Exchange tab)

 

 

5

excellent intervention.

i hope it is enough.

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36 minutes ago, admin said:

Boading muskets bonuses and percentages was significantly lowered. (for example total firepower (resulting from accuracy and %) on Redoutable musket was lowered from 933% to 260%)

Does this also mean the musket mods are more common now? I'd hate to get a musket mod from gold chest post nerf... :mellow:

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41 minutes ago, admin said:

Hotfix was deployed today 11th January

  • Boading muskets bonuses and percentages was significantly lowered. (for example total firepower (resulting from accuracy and %) on Redoutable musket was lowered from 933% to 260%)
  • Chests now appear more often in Hunt and Search and Destroy missions
  • Victory marks cannot now be purchased for doubloons on the War Server (they still can be purchased in the admiralty on the Peace server in the PVE Exchange tab)

 

 

1.Thank you

2.Thank you

3.and damn

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