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Slim McSauce

Bow guns for frigates without?

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24 members have voted

  1. 1. Should these ships receive bow guns of any kind

    • Yes, ships without bow guns should receive bow guns
      10
    • No, ships without bow guns shouldn't receive bow guns
      14


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Should bow  guns be given to ships without, namely Essex, Cerberus, and Renomee?
Chasers are meta, they're required for most combat and add much more utility than control does alone.
I propose 1 bow guns for cerb and reno, and 2 saddle guns for cerberus.
Also swivels should be put on these ships to make them more effective in combat so they get used more.

 

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The bridle port should usually give fire to the forward quarter. Few ships have specifically dedicated bow chase guns, most have either a choice of breeching points for a movable single gun (or carronade), or a port in the forward curve of the side which covers part of the forward arc as well as the direct broadside.

Edited by Lieste
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2 hours ago, Lieste said:

The bridle port should usually give fire to the forward quarter. Few ships have specifically dedicated bow chase guns, most have either a choice of breeching points for a movable single gun (or carronade), or a port in the forward curve of the side which covers part of the forward arc as well as the direct broadside.

this was my thinking, if a ship didnt have dedicated mounting point for bow guns, they would just move a gun over to do the job. (cant be that hard right?)

Some ships like the essex had guns dedicated to being moved to and from the bow called saddle guns. The essex should definitely get its historical fit of guns as well corvettes getting 1 bow gun, all frigates should have their chasers there's really no excuse when ships like the wasa get 10 chasers and some frigates only have 2 and are hardly used.

Edited by Slim McSauce

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+1

I think all ships should have bow and stern chasers, because its really not hard to move a broadside gun. Or, if weight is a concern, add a 4lb long gun which isn't very heavy at all.

 

I even made a topic about it ages ago, but most of the responses to the negative were based on "its not historical" and "you can't just put a cannon wherever you want."

To the first, "historical accuracy" complaint, I point at the various accounts detailing crews moving a broadside cannon to aim further forward or behind to serve as a chaser, whether or not the ship had chasers (but if you look, a large portion of plans I've seen included bridle ports that could be armed with small forward facing guns).

To the second "putting a cannon wherever you want," I urge the consideration of weight. Lets say a long 4lb cannon, with carriage, weighs about 1200 pounds (maybe a little more or less, different websites seem to have different numbers). Sounds like a lot of weight...but is it really? Thats about 10 120lb sailors. You mean to tell me the foredeck of a frigate can't hold 10 sailors? :mellow: Go sell that to someone who hasn't been on a wooden boat before.
And regarding tackle for controlling recoil: a competent carpenter and his team should be able to knock together a suitably sturdy set of posts to withstand the modest recoil of a small cannon. I mean...when you've got 5+ inches of oak ribs and planks making up the sides of the ship it surely won't take much more reinforcing to allow you to place some eyebolts for cannon tackle.

 

So...yes. Give all ships bow and stern chasers. It is downright frustrating when sailing a Pavel or Bucentaure, you look at the massive open deckspace at the bow and think "Nope, no way I could have some guns here, carry on!"

Or thinking about the Essex which barely sees any use because it lacks the chasers needed for hunting and is outclassed by other ships when considering it for a support role. 

 

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http://thepirateking.com/historical/cannon_deck.htm The logistics of shipping a 6lb cannon with a barrel weight of around 1000lbs  (even a 2lber weighed in at 600lbs) without carriage, would have been difficult especially with with heel on a ship or a heavy sea running. The evolution of shipping cannons on deck gave rise to expression 'loose cannon' if control was lost heavy damage and injuries could be caused so Captains would have been reluctant to move them often, preference would have been for cannon permanently placed as chasers which was not always possible.

That said, the majority of Captains would rather have chasers permanently sited if they could be fitted, and if a ship had gunports for chasers then generally at some point in the ships life they would have been carried.

The USS Essex is listed as having been able to carry 2 x 9 lb or 2 X 32 lb Carronades as bow chasers, she does not do so in game, perhaps, because she only ever carried them after the Royal Navy captured her, placing her in service briefly as HMS Essex, interestingly she was mainly Carro armed with a couple of 12lb longs in U.S service, were she armed with a serious 12/32 lb long/carro mix, she may of fared better against the long gun armed frigate and sloop that caught her. She is, I feel, much underused, and the only real complaint I've heard regarding her is the lack of chasers, she would, also, I think have been handicapped by the lack of Chasers during  the Barbary Coast wars as she would have been expected to fight Xebecs. 

 

 

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Each ship should have a max amount of cannons and a max amount of cannons per caliber.  Where and how you array them should be a custom choice for each captain.  

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8 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

this was my thinking, if a ship didnt have dedicated mounting point for bow guns, they would just move a gun over to do the job. (cant be that hard right?)

Some ships like the essex had guns dedicated to being moved to and from the bow called saddle guns. The essex should definitely get its historical fit of guns as well corvettes getting 1 bow gun, all frigates should have their chasers there's really no excuse when ships like the wasa get 10 chasers and some frigates only have 2 and are hardly used.

As Lieste you quoted wrote, lots of ships had 'a port in the forward curve of the side which covers part of the forward arc' acting as a chaser as long as you arm it and the ship tacks.

On several ships, Devs chose to arm this port with a permanent gun. Thus :

  • while RL USS Essex has 26 guns on her gundeck, she carries 28 guns in game
  • while RL HMS Cerberus has 24 guns on her gundeck, she carries 26 guns in game
  • etc.

PS : La Renommée has her historical number of guns.

8 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

corvettes getting 1 bow gun, all frigates should have their chasers

Most corvettes didn't have chasers. RL Rattlesnake certainly had (anyway, it is currently  a heavy version of her). 

8 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

all frigates should have their chasers there's really no excuse when ships like the wasa get 10 chasers and some frigates only have 2 and are hardly used.

No excuse ? What about History and Gameplay ?

Some NA players act as poker players with three Kings in their hand, saying 'It's not fair. Three-of-a-kind should beat a royal flush ! Let's change the rules.' 🙂

It seems that Mr. Sauce likes the light frigates (good!) and wants to buff them (well...). Yesterday, it was 'Cerberus in shallows'. Today, it is 'Give them more guns' (chasers and swivels). And tomorrow ? Wings ? Speed ? 😉

PS : please, don't state inaccuracies such as :

8 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

The essex should definitely get its historical fit of guns as well corvettes getting 1 bow gun, all frigates should have their chasers

btw :

11 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

swivels should be put on these ships to make them more effective in combat so they get used more.

The role of swivels in game, especially for small ships ? That's an interesting question. 

Have a nice day. 🙂

Edited by LeBoiteux
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1 hour ago, Batman said:

All ships should have control perk by default. No magic disappering after some (un)lucky misses.

everyone could skill the perk 😉

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23 minutes ago, z4ys said:

everyone could skill the perk 😉

the perk does more harm than good when you're control your friendlies as well as the enemy making you a huge liability when all you really want is to be able to hold the ship in front of you in battle.

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2 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

the perk does more harm than good when you're control your friendlies as well as the enemy making you a huge liability when all you really want is to be able to hold the ship in front of you in battle.

You can cancel the perk at the beginning of the fight even when skilled 😉 But yeah 3 points

Edited by z4ys

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