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Sir Texas Sir

Points of Forts and Towers killed.

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So we had a port battle at Marsh Harbor tonight and I notice the defense goes down and suddenly the other team has 250 points.   Even at full sales we would of just engaged them at this time.  Than the second one goes down (they had two mortar brigs) and it was at 500 points.

@admin is this how it's suppose to be with two AI fort/tower kills the Attackers had 500 points.  Defenders have no real way to counter this.  I remember the old points where 75 for Towers and 150 for forts.....250 is way to high.  The battle was over really fast cause of this.  While we would of lost the brawl in the long run getting over half points just for killing two useless for the most part AI that don't really help much as there range is two short is bad.;

I'm just wondering if they are suppose to be worth so many points than they need to be doing more in defense or defenders need something else as this right now gives Attackers way to much a point advantage in the fights.   Again we would of lost to the brawl (as neither us had complete control of two circles for long), but that 500 points straight off made the battle a very short one.  

Maybe the towers and forts need to be brought back down in points when killed as they should never be worth so many points you can win off just destroying them.   

 

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You have to push the mortar brigs at all times and dislodge them from their firing position. If you let them run unopposed you'll give them free points destroying your defenses. Its a ship worth points to you and cant fight back properly if its not firing mortars.

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7 minutes ago, Rabman said:

You have to push the mortar brigs at all times and dislodge them from their firing position. If you let them run unopposed you'll give them free points destroying your defenses. Its a ship worth points to you and cant fight back properly if its not firing mortars.

Queue the Benny Hill music.

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1 hour ago, Rabman said:

You have to push the mortar brigs at all times and dislodge them from their firing position. If you let them run unopposed you'll give them free points destroying your defenses. Its a ship worth points to you and cant fight back properly if its not firing mortars.

you can see they sat for awhile while we waited for our mortars to take out the 2nd fort. we didnt want the points but didnt want forts raining fire during the brawl

also forts are 225 points per but this was one of the rare two fort battles

Edited by Coraline Vodka
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I don't disagree with the idea that forts and towers might be better at 150 and 75, or something close to that. I'm not saying they can't be countered, or that the US played as well as they could or anything, but I don't think anybody wanted that fight to end as quickly as it did, and pirates didn't have any choice but to destroy the big forts.

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2 minutes ago, greybuscat said:

I don't disagree with the idea that forts and towers might be better at 150 and 75, or something close to that. I'm not saying they can't be countered, or that the US played as well as they could or anything, but I don't think anybody wanted that fight to end as quickly as it did, and pirates didn't have any choice but to destroy the big forts.

its not as common in shallow pbs but defenders can win by running out the clock. the points from towers and forts can be overcome with a few sinks

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3 minutes ago, Coraline Vodka said:

its not as common in shallow pbs but defenders can win by running out the clock. the points from towers and forts can be overcome with a few sinks

I'm sure you have a better understanding of RvR than I do. I'm just saying there may be room for adjustments, even if it's just for shallow ports or particular shallow ports. Players shouldn't have to be drawing things out intentionally.

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2 hours ago, Rabman said:

You have to push the mortar brigs at all times and dislodge them from their firing position. If you let them run unopposed you'll give them free points destroying your defenses. Its a ship worth points to you and cant fight back properly if its not firing mortars.

That is precisely what happened :) 

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1 hour ago, Coraline Vodka said:

you can see they sat for awhile while we waited for our mortars to take out the 2nd fort. we didnt want the points but didnt want forts raining fire during the brawl

also forts are 225 points per but this was one of the rare two fort battles

First one was killed at 6 mins from start of PB (3:44 mark on video), the reason you have that 10 mins no points from circle is to give fleets time to group up and than engage.  That is what we where doing was getting every one grouped up to engage.   Second one was destroyed at the 13:44 mark of the video, so that is about 10 mins after the first one was killed.  I believe one ship was aslo captured at this time that is why we thought it was 250, so that would be 450 with 100 points for a kill.   They are still worth more than a player killed.  There was nothing wrong with them when they where worth 75 for towers and 150 for forts.  Going with about 100 points a player the rest of the points was made mainly by kills.  Port battle was over by 28:15 add the three extra mins not on video that means it was over in pretty much 30 mins.    

 

3 hours ago, Rabman said:

You have to push the mortar brigs at all times and dislodge them from their firing position. If you let them run unopposed you'll give them free points destroying your defenses. Its a ship worth points to you and cant fight back properly if its not firing mortars.

First one was killed at the 6 mins from start mark, which is pretty good shooting, but that means he spawned pretty much where he could kill it with little moving movement.   There is no way you can make it even from the edge to him in 6 mins unless we charged from the starte.

2 hours ago, greybuscat said:

I don't disagree with the idea that forts and towers might be better at 150 and 75, or something close to that. I'm not saying they can't be countered, or that the US played as well as they could or anything, but I don't think anybody wanted that fight to end as quickly as it did, and pirates didn't have any choice but to destroy the big forts.

75 and 150 was the old points so that is why I asked @admin why they where changed.  What works in Deep water doesn't always work the same in shallows  where fights are more compact and up close.   This post isn't about the PB it self it's about the mechanic and does it need to be reviewed or even the position of those forts on that map.

Also if they wanted a braw with the wind they could of just joined at the North and fought over A and avoided the forts all together.  The wind would of been good for that as there was no screeners to contest them.  We didn't join until after they had picked and joined first.

57 minutes ago, Hemp Amore said:

That is precisely what happened :) 

it is not what happen....even if we rushed you we would never made it in time to get engage any ship by time that first one was destroyed.  I have no issue with the fact that they where used and killed the forts.  In the past most folks didn't have to worry as it was only max 300 points, not almost 500.  That is a big step up in  a fight that ended way to early.   Stupid mechanics like circles and killing AI should not be the main way to win battles.  This port battle was over in 30 mins.  If you took the forts out of the equation it might of lasted 10 mins more, but it should be more about the fight not the cheese of easy kills of things that are pretty much useless.

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We can quibble about the relative merits of changing points for forts and towers, you could maybe make a case for scaling it between shallows and deeps, but there are a couple of points worth considering:

1) We had both mortar brigs focusing on each fort, one at a time, which is why they went down so fast.
2) Some port layouts, like Marsh, are such that you can join your main fleet with the MBs in one location, protect them while they get easy firing solutions on two forts.  This is a port design issue and there aren't that many ports with two square forts.
3) For ports with two forts like this one, then it becomes even more critical to take out the mortar brigs before they get into battle. And if you don't, you know that you must join your ships in a position where you know you can harass them.

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That was the wind for the battle, along with the port layout.   You note that for Marsh you can join your defending fleet between B and C on the outside of the bay on the east side of the inner circle. That would have been the smart tactical thing to do in this case where you could anticipate that the MBs and main fleet would almost certainly join where we did, on the East side of the circle.

So I think the forts and their value really aren't the problem here. It's a combination of tactics and port layout that contributed to the speed of the battle. But all said, thanks to the US for coming out for a fight. I too wish it could have been much longer, as I barely had engaged the scrum after the forts went down before it was mostly over.

And let's be super honest here, Marsh is a very difficult port to defend because of the port layout and its exposure. There's really no "bad" wind to attack Marsh with, so come and take it back. :) The hardest thing about attacking Marsh is getting 25 competent players (+ screeners) for it. :P 

Edited by Wraith
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9 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

it is not what happen....even if we rushed you we would never made it in time to get engage any ship by time that first one was destroyed.  I have no issue with the fact that they where used and killed the forts.  In the past most folks didn't have to worry as it was only max 300 points, not almost 500.  That is a big step up in  a fight that ended way to early.   Stupid mechanics like circles and killing AI should not be the main way to win battles.  This port battle was over in 30 mins.  If you took the forts out of the equation it might of lasted 10 mins more, but it should be more about the fight not the cheese of easy kills of things that are pretty much useless.

We worked very hard to plan the battle so our ingress points, combination of firepower, good leadership, and more led to this quick and decisive victory.  Not every battle is long and drawn out if the forces can achieve rapid time to kills or other factors that contribute to success of the battle (controlling ground and disabling enemy infrastructure).  The fact is we were better deployed and used our forces on orders of magnitude more effectively than the US fleet did.   You can say the points were unfair, I think not, you had TWO square forts you did not protect, nor use effectively against us.  You could of easily disrupted the morter brigs and drawn our fleet toward the forts to get demasts (one of our guys did get demasted by a square fort) and sinks.  Plan better next time and I say this humbly because it was a team effort and none of us would of been able to do it without one another.  So build your team @Sir Texas Sir

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3 hours ago, Hemp Amore said:

We worked very hard to plan the battle so our ingress points, combination of firepower, good leadership, and more led to this quick and decisive victory.  Not every battle is long and drawn out if the forces can achieve rapid time to kills or other factors that contribute to success of the battle (controlling ground and disabling enemy infrastructure).  The fact is we were better deployed and used our forces on orders of magnitude more effectively than the US fleet did.   You can say the points were unfair, I think not, you had TWO square forts you did not protect, nor use effectively against us.  You could of easily disrupted the morter brigs and drawn our fleet toward the forts to get demasts (one of our guys did get demasted by a square fort) and sinks.  Plan better next time and I say this humbly because it was a team effort and none of us would of been able to do it without one another.  So build your team @Sir Texas Sir

 I'm going to say this one more time, this has nothing to do with the PORT BATTLE, WE WOULD OF LOST IT WITHOUT THE FORTS BEING DESTROYED.  Yah had the more expierenced team since most of your players are older vets while we had a lot of very new players on our team.  Which again those guys did great for there first port battle.  This is a post about game mechanics.   The points for forts should never be more than points for players.   Specially when on some maps it can become almost an instant win.  As Marsh isn't the only map that has mulit forts.

Now should the points be reduced for shallow waters or over all?  That is up to @admin and the rest of the Dev teams to look at.  I made this post to bring up the fact that it can turn the tide in a fight fast and to point out they should never be worth more than player kills in a fight.  They put in the 10 min delay for the circles to give both teams a fair fight and to give time for fleet organization.   This is another mechanic that should be look at.

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1 hour ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

 I'm going to say this one more time, this has nothing to do with the PORT BATTLE, WE WOULD OF LOST IT WITHOUT THE FORTS BEING DESTROYED.  Yah had the more expierenced team since most of your players are older vets while we had a lot of very new players on our team.  Which again those guys did great for there first port battle.  This is a post about game mechanics.   The points for forts should never be more than points for players.   Specially when on some maps it can become almost an instant win.  As Marsh isn't the only map that has mulit forts.

Now should the points be reduced for shallow waters or over all?  That is up to @admin and the rest of the Dev teams to look at.  I made this post to bring up the fact that it can turn the tide in a fight fast and to point out they should never be worth more than player kills in a fight.  They put in the 10 min delay for the circles to give both teams a fair fight and to give time for fleet organization.   This is another mechanic that should be look at.

I guarantee if you were on the other side and were the one destroying the forts this thread would not exist.  

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2 minutes ago, Hemp Amore said:

I guarantee if you were on the other side and were the one destroying the forts this thread would not exist.  

Actually your very wrong as I'm here to test a game, if I see something that looks like it's unbalanced than i post on it.  I have stated several times that ya'll would of won with or without destroying the forts simply by the number of vets you had on your side of the fight.  This has nothing to do with the port battle.  It has to do with a game mechanic that seems unbalanced.  Even if I was on the other side I would think the same thing.  225 points is to high for the forts and towers point wise.  When that is more than you get for player kills.

 

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I can't listen to you whine anymore.  That's why I really wanted to take your port, you whine all the time.  You deserved it.  Go cry about the alts.

The points are fair because you are killing what is equivalent to a 1st rate (100+ guns) in firepower and not to mention AI SNIPING CAPABILITY.   So I feel absolutely zero sympathy for you.  Next time use those TWO GIANT FIRST RATE EQUIVALENTS in your favor, PLUS WE GAVE YOU A BATTLE PLAN in the event you ever find the courage to take it back.  LOL "the fort points are too high."   Since you're getting 1st rate firepower in a shallow water fight, the odds are actually in your favor than the attacker, but whatever man, opinions you're entitled to...

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55 minutes ago, Hemp Amore said:

I can't listen to you whine anymore.  That's why I really wanted to take your port, you whine all the time.  You deserved it.  Go cry about the alts.

The points are fair because you are killing what is equivalent to a 1st rate (100+ guns) in firepower and not to mention AI SNIPING CAPABILITY.   So I feel absolutely zero sympathy for you.  Next time use those TWO GIANT FIRST RATE EQUIVALENTS in your favor, PLUS WE GAVE YOU A BATTLE PLAN in the event you ever find the courage to take it back.  LOL "the fort points are too high."   Since you're getting 1st rate firepower in a shallow water fight, the odds are actually in your favor than the attacker, but whatever man, opinions you're entitled to...

Actually the square forts have 64 guns in total.

Having said that you should also consider that usually only 2-3 of their 4 sides will shoot at your ships because 1-2 sides are aiming to the land.

Forts also dont snipe like npc ships (I call sniping when the AI fires only one ball at a time to my stern and kills many crew in the process). Forts fire entire "broadsides" which they are often not very accurate.

Edited by Intrepido
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1 hour ago, Hemp Amore said:

I can't listen to you whine anymore.  That's why I really wanted to take your port, you whine all the time.  You deserved it.  Go cry about the alts.

The points are fair because you are killing what is equivalent to a 1st rate (100+ guns) in firepower and not to mention AI SNIPING CAPABILITY.   So I feel absolutely zero sympathy for you.  Next time use those TWO GIANT FIRST RATE EQUIVALENTS in your favor, PLUS WE GAVE YOU A BATTLE PLAN in the event you ever find the courage to take it back.  LOL "the fort points are too high."   Since you're getting 1st rate firepower in a shallow water fight, the odds are actually in your favor than the attacker, but whatever man, opinions you're entitled to...

;Actually the only person I see whining and being off topic is you.  This topic is about the forts and there points and usefulness or lack of it in battles.  I don't care about your view of me.  Seems you got some stick up your arse about me and I never have meet you.  Oh and you didn't win that port.  VCO won it as I haven't seen RDMP win nothing but empty ports.   Now that you got all that out can we get back on topic, which isn't about me, but the forts and the points in battle for killing them?

 

As for being fair if they had the proper range to defend themselves than being easily snipped by mortar brigs (They actually have the same range but terrible accuracy at that range).

 

Actually you do bring up a good point here, how many points do ships actually give you now. It use to be a flat rate for none SOL and same for any SOL.  The BR didn't matter.  It was much like the old tower forts.  75 for none SOL and 150 for SOL.  I can look at the battle and check, but would be nice if @admin can give us a clear account on what points are worth for kills in PB.  I'm sure most of use have the circle points down.  They where tweeked so you couldn't speed cap a port.  

31 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Actually the square forts have 64 guns in total.

Having said that you should also consider that usually only 2-3 of their 4 sides will shoot at your ships because 1-2 sides are aiming to the land.

Forts also dont snipe like npc ships (I call sniping when the AI fires only one ball at a time to my stern and kills many crew in the process). Forts fire entire "broadsides" which they are often not very accurate.

If they had better accuracy and actually hit more than they do than I would say they be worth more.  Some ports you don't even get 2-3 sides cause of how they are set up, they only fire forward (away from shore).  As I stated above folks prob don't really notice cause many of the maps are very open and most of the time depending on wind you can totally avoid the forts.  So are they really that useful to be worth so many points?

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2 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

;Actually the only person I see whining and being off topic is you.  This topic is about the forts and there points and usefulness or lack of it in battles.  I don't care about your view of me.  Seems you got some stick up your arse about me and I never have meet you.  Oh and you didn't win that port.  VCO won it as I haven't seen RDMP win nothing but empty ports.   Now that you got all that out can we get back on topic, which isn't about me, but the forts and the points in battle for killing them?

 

As for being fair if they had the proper range to defend themselves than being easily snipped by mortar brigs (They actually have the same range but terrible accuracy at that range).

 

Actually you do bring up a good point here, how many points do ships actually give you now. It use to be a flat rate for none SOL and same for any SOL.  The BR didn't matter.  It was much like the old tower forts.  75 for none SOL and 150 for SOL.  I can look at the battle and check, but would be nice if @admin can give us a clear account on what points are worth for kills in PB.  I'm sure most of use have the circle points down.  They where tweeked so you couldn't speed cap a port.  

If they had better accuracy and actually hit more than they do than I would say they be worth more.  Some ports you don't even get 2-3 sides cause of how they are set up, they only fire forward (away from shore).  As I stated above folks prob don't really notice cause many of the maps are very open and most of the time depending on wind you can totally avoid the forts.  So are they really that useful to be worth so many points?

If Im correct killing a ship of the line adds 80 points. A non ship of the line, 40.

I generally agree that in most cases forts arent very useful however in shallow water PBs, if they are placed protecting one circle, they can save the day.

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