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Slim McSauce

Should the Cerberus be given Shallow Water Access?

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34 minutes ago, Sir Loorkon said:

LaBroken.

From now on, I warn anybody that I will sue anyone¬†calling Le Requin 'LaBroken',¬†'LeBroken' or anything beginning by 'LeB' or 'LaB' as¬†it gravely defames both my NA alias and¬†Le Requin.¬†ūüôā

34 minutes ago, Sir Loorkon said:

What about Surprise and Renomee?

No frigate in shallows. On the contrary, we need to find ways to make 7th and 6th rates more attractive.

1 hour ago, Celtiberofrog said:

DLC's are good for casual players but their use should be limited to "low strategical actions".

'low strategical actions' = OW fights, missions, events... anything but PB, right ?

I for one would agree.

But you realize that 'limited to low strategical actions' is a poor sales pitch for DLCs ? 

It also oddly suggests that any DLCs is and will be OP. Or is it because you don't have to craft them ?

1 hour ago, Aster said:

Is this not basically the Pandora?

Also a DLC ship (free for EA players)

22 x 9-pdr + 6 x 6-pdr (from WIP pics)

 

IMHO

Edited by LeBoiteux

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11 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

From now on, I warn anybody that I will sue anyone¬†calling Le Requin 'LaBroken',¬†'LeBroken' or anything beginning by 'LeB' or 'LaB' as¬†it gravely defames both my NA alias and¬†Le Requin.¬†ūüôā

Good.  I will continue to call it a Mediterranean piece of crap.... 

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27 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

.¬†ūüôā

No frigate in shallows. On the contrary, we need to find ways to make 7th and 6th rates more attractive.

 

 

 Ribbons and glitter perhaps?

 Seriously though shallows were ok before the DLC came,  the simple solution would be to remove the dlc ships shallow status.

 

 

Edited by Dibbler
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7 minutes ago, Dibbler said:

 Ribbons and glitter perhaps?

For my part, I thought of how to make small ships more used in OW fights, maybe giving them specific missions or special uses.

Pink ribbons hung on the mast of a cutter and everybody else trying to catch her¬†up and steal it ?¬†ūüėĀ

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2 minutes ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Nothing but schooners and sloops in shallows. No brigs even.¬†ūüėé

In favor of 'medium shallows' for ships from brigs up to light frigates ?

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1 minute ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Nothing but schooners and sloops in shallows. No brigs even.¬†ūüėé

In RL there was shallow, really shallow, and of course, really, really shallow.  Many Captains of the day acquired a tender (shallow draft small ship with a couple of small guns) that could poke into the shallow cays etc.  Game-wise, I would not like to see different levels of shallow in the Bahamas but limiting them from bigger ships would simulate this.  I don't think you can base this on RL draft of the individual ships.  Herc and Req may in fact be shallow draft, but they've made the shallows untenable for 6th rates in general.  At the very least, take them (along with the cutter) out of the shallow patrol zone for gameplay reasons.

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15 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

In RL there was shallow, really shallow, and of course, really, really shallow.  Many Captains of the day acquired a tender (shallow draft small ship with a couple of small guns) that could poke into the shallow cays etc.  Game-wise, I would not like to see different levels of shallow in the Bahamas but limiting them from bigger ships would simulate this.  I don't think you can base this on RL draft of the individual ships.  Herc and Req may in fact be shallow draft, but they've made the shallows untenable for 6th rates in general.  At the very least, take them (along with the cutter) out of the shallow patrol zone for gameplay reasons.

Why not go full real with an accurate bathymetric chart all over the map in the future? Gameplay wise you can fit in an exploration aspect. Map the water depths while you sail around and update your own individual map to find out how deep it is everywhere. The shallows indicator still appears when you come near to a part where you can't sail. Downside: would buff the herc probably even more if z4ys draft values are correct.

But then ships like the Cerberus can be used on other parts of the map, where you can find many parts that are to shallow for bigger frigates or which restrict the free movement of bigger ships. Although people will probably still sail the herc then, which makes me think more and more that the devs introduced a huge problem into the game with those DLC ships.

Would be a dream for me to have but it is probably really easier and better for the shallows gameplay to just artificially restrict the Herc and Req from the shallows. But I can already see the outcry when this happens.

I can't imagine the impact of the Cerb into shallows atm. Maybe the devs can test it for two weeks or so? 

A medium shallows area could work too. But which places come into question here?

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13 minutes ago, Cecil Selous said:

 z4ys draft values are correct.

i am not sure regarding herc. I found an other source saying 5,8 meters depth of hold.

But devs should have no issue

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Source:

 

Edited by z4ys
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I really would like to have a vessel viewer. Would make stuff like this (comparison) so easy.

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So the brig and navy brig have a larger draft than Cerb, Reno, Surprise and even the Belle Poule. So it seems the draft isn't the criteria for shallows. therefor @admin let's test the cerb for two weeks in the shallows :D

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28 minutes ago, Cecil Selous said:

Would be a dream for me to have but it is probably really easier and better for the shallows gameplay to just artificially restrict the Herc and Req from the shallows. But I can already see the outcry when this happens.

I don't actually propose to remove them from all shallows (they're all over the map), just the patrol zone.

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2 minutes ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

How deep are "shallows" ?

As previously advertised....Shallow....very shallow....and very, very shallow.  large areas in the cays are only 1-2 metres.  Passages that will allow a small cutter but not a corvette, etc.  it's truly a maze of differing depths.  It would be crazy to map it realistically for the game.  Maybe devs would be willing to map and colour-code two levels of shallows....

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3 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

As previously advertised....Shallow....very shallow....and very, very shallow.  large areas in the cays are only 1-2 metres.  Passages that will allow a small cutter but not a corvette, etc.  it's truly a maze of differing depths.  It would be crazy to map it realistically for the game.  Maybe devs would be willing to map and colour-code two levels of shallows....

Not crazy, pretty easy actually at a rough enough scale, and certainly easy to build into a collision detection system like Unity offers.  But as has been said many times in the past, like fixing AI routes through land, it's too hard not a priority.

Yet, implementing real-life bathymetry and per-ship draft calculations would be... well, trivial, not to mention interesting from a game play standpoint for both OW and battle instances. But it seems very unlikely that we'll ever get it.

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On 12/6/2018 at 11:34 PM, Slim McSauce said:

Here's a debate about one of the more important aspects of the game.

 With recent discussions over the DLC light 5th rate Hercules and the Infamous xebec Le Requin, it has been said by part of the community that the Hercules has broken the boundery for what constitutes as a "shallow water vessel", and because of that the Cerberus being historically shallow draft should also be given access to shallows. The argument for this is that a new contender needs to be introduces to even out battles against the very hard hitting and nimble Hercules, and the extremely fast, packed to the brim with crew Requin.

Some arguments against this is that The Requin and Hercules are balanced within the sandbox in that you can bring multiple 6th rates to defeat one of the DLC ships. They also say that the DLC ships need to have reasonable attraction for people to buy it, and that shallows is a place where a new players can buy the DLC and jump right into some pvp to learn how to play and avoid heavy loss.
Dlc ships are already excluded for Port battles, further excluding them while adding a regular ship to the mix will only shift the imbalance towards the cerb with presumably being allowed into PB's being that it isn't a "free" ship like DLC ships are.

What do you the player think? Should a regular 5th rate be allowed to participate in shallow waters and should that ship be the Cerberus? Or should that be left to the Hercules in order to preserve the DLC's purchase power. How willing or unwilling are you to allow another 5th rate into shallows, potentially shifting the balance once more. Do you think that the Herc/Req will still be overpowered against more Cerberus? Would you say that a 6th rate versus herc/req or 6th rate versus a Cerberus is more mismatched a battle?

Let you opinion be knows and make sure to provide good reasoning so we don't have to dig into each other for explanation ;)
Lets try to come to a consensus here, this is a very big issue currently that needs addressing.

 

In active development (pushing the ui update and localization rework required all time and programming resources for last months) it is easy to miss some obvious balance issues that arise over time when introducing new things (muskets, hercules)

We tended to focus on historical stats for ships (or at least theoretical historical stats)
Based on draught the following ships must be allowed in shallows if hercules(4.1) and brig (4.5) can enter shallows:

Cerberus 4 meters
Renommee - 4 meters
Surprise - 3.9 meters
Pandora - 3.9 meters

The proposal will bring those ships to life. + Any new player gets access to them by: 

  • immediately -¬†just passing the final exam
  • in 2-3 days - by¬†doing missions from capital

 

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Alternatively all ships above 3 meters draught must be removed from shallows but it will make them all less useful. 
(this will even remove brigs) . But it keeps LRQ - because its draught is 2.8-2.9. 

We believe that adding light corvettes to shallows will make them useful as they are cheap, and fun. Making them lineships of the shallows. 

 

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8 minutes ago, admin said:

In active development (pushing the ui update and localization rework required all time and programming resources for last months) it is easy to miss some obvious balance issues that arise over time when introducing new things (muskets, hercules)

We tended to focus on historical stats for ships (or at least theoretical historical stats)
Based on draught the following ships must be allowed in shallows if hercules(4.1) and brig (4.5) can enter shallows:

Cerberus 4 meters
Renommee - 4 meters
Surprise - 3.9 meters
Pandora - 3.9 meters

The proposal will bring those ships to life. + Any new player gets access to them by: 

  • immediately -¬†just passing the final exam
  • in 2-3 days - by¬†doing missions from capital

 

Nice, I really think that would bring shallows to life. Unlike large frigates and SOLs a 6th rate is still very competitive to the ships you mention. I anticipate it will feel very natural to have these ships in shallow water, allowing more people to enjoy what is in my opinion, the best classes of ships in the most visually stunning part of the map. Very excited. Anything else to know about future patches? We're all ears. :D

Edited by Slim McSauce
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What about a third category ('mid shallows') with ships from LRQ (2,9m) to Reno (4m) ? 

To make small ships more used, making USS Niagara 'the lineship of the shallows' and making the Surprise/Renommée 'the lineship of the mid-shallows' ?

Edited by LeBoiteux
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23 minutes ago, admin said:

We believe that adding light corvettes to shallows will make them useful as they are cheap, and fun. Making them lineships of the shallows. 

Brilliant! I miss sailing the Renommee and the Suprise.. Will this require a lot of work or is it something you can change in a short time frame? 

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On 12/7/2018 at 2:54 PM, Cecil Selous said:

So the brig and navy brig have a larger draft than Cerb, Reno, Surprise and even the Belle Poule. So it seems the draft isn't the criteria for shallows. therefor @admin let's test the cerb for two weeks in the shallows :D

the problem is that brig is one of the first models (when were were complete rookies) and is really oversized. compared to all alternatives + also undergunned compared to all alternatives. 

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