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Better Ships for All!

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I suggest all DLC ships be 3/5s and all crafted basic ships are at least 4/5 possibly 5/5!

 

Here's my reasoning

n76tKjw.jpg

Go on now and argue

 

(credit to @Liq

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I'm on board with the gist of the idea.. but instead I'd make DLC ships 2/4, shabby if redeemed, or if redeemed as a permit, normal after crafted.  I'd keep all crafted ships with current RNG values.

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Or just give permits instead of notes daily for DLC ships. Then they have to craft them.

I use the Herc a lot, why should new players have to spend money in order to compete with those who have been around longer and see the value of purchasing the DLC? They shouldn't.

 

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44 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I'm on board with the gist of the idea.. but instead I'd make DLC ships 2/4, shabby if redeemed, or if redeemed as a permit, normal after crafted.  I'd keep all crafted ships with current RNG values.

The problem with affecting the DLC content is those players will likely complain and could have some refund liabilities to steam. Its best we look instead at improving the ships crafted, as DLC buyers have nothing to complain about as their purchase has not changed.

Edited by pit

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22 minutes ago, pit said:

The problem with affecting the DLC content is those players will likely complain and could have some refund liabilities to steam. Its best we look instead at improving the ships crafted, as DLC buyers have nothing to complain about as their purchase has not changed.

Possibly, but as I understood it as long as nothing about the ship changes from the description on the Steam page then there's no recourse for purchasers.

And the problem with making all crafted ships "better" is that it exacerbates the problem with mod stacking that already exists. We just don't experience it that much because there aren't that many of us sailing around gold ships very often. But those of us that do will definitely attest to the fact that having an extra mod slot or two can make a rather large difference for purpose-built ships, especially when adding in the newer, OP meta-mods like muskets, etc.

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I think having more 4/5 or 5/5 ships will be better on the mod market, example that unused mods will be used more often such as a british gunner, rare mods will be in more demand, increasing the price and creating more trade and pvp where those mods can be resourced from. Further more if one person has a 5/5 all good mod ship, then having more people with 5/5 all good mod ships wouldn't hurt anyone but make more people better off.

@Wraith If something is rare and unfair to other players, you don't keep it rare for the few, but rather open it up to more people to level the field, such as a 5/5.

Aside  to what you brought up is the Mod problem, a separate issue, but yes i believe there are too many mod stacks (mainly speed) that needs to be reduced again. no reason we need a +4% speed buff mod.

Edited by pit

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2 hours ago, pit said:

I suggest all DLC ships be 3/5s and all crafted basic ships are at least 4/5 possibly 5/5!

 

Here's my reasoning

n76tKjw.jpg

Go on now and argue

 

(credit to @Liq

are you sure you are checking ship stats and crafting bonuses right? 

For example hercules stats
There is at least 1 crafteable 40 gunner that is better than Hercules (40 guns) in terms of:

  • HP and mast HP
  • Crew
  • Thickness and mast thickness
  • Sails
  • Broadside weight

Even more - a lot of of 38-44 gun ships in game are better than hercules and will eat hercs for breakfast. 

Crafting bonus
It is several times easier (multiple times easier) to get a well crafted 5v5 if you craft a ship in a capturable port. Usage of notes or admiralty ships does not have any bonuses. You basically cannot get a 5/5 ship from the note. (It is possible but it is extremely rare). You can get a 5/5 ship using crafting a lot more often. 

We are very careful with what we promise and this promise is definitely fulfilled. 

  • Crafted ships are better more often - check
  • There is at least one ship in class which is better even without extra slots - check
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31 minutes ago, admin said:

There is at least 1 crafteable 40 gunner that is better than Hercules (40 guns) in terms of:

  • HP and mast HP
  • Crew
  • Thickness and mast thickness
  • Sails
  • Broadside weight

How many of these can enter shallows?

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26 minutes ago, admin said:

-snap-

Can you name a 40 gun ship fulfilling these requirements that can sail the shallows?

Can you name a 6th rate outclassing the Requin in the same way? (HP, mast HP, crew, thickness, mast thickness, sails, broadside weight)

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54 minutes ago, admin said:

are you sure you are checking ship stats and crafting bonuses right? 

For example hercules stats
There is at least 1 crafteable 40 gunner that is better than Hercules (40 guns) in terms of:

  • HP and mast HP
  • Crew
  • Thickness and mast thickness
  • Sails
  • Broadside weight

Even more - a lot of of 38-44 gun ships in game are better than hercules and will eat hercs for breakfast. 

Crafting bonus
It is several times easier (multiple times easier) to get a well crafted 5v5 if you craft a ship in a capturable port. Usage of notes or admiralty ships does not have any bonuses. You basically cannot get a 5/5 ship from the note. (It is possible but it is extremely rare). You can get a 5/5 ship using crafting a lot more often. 

We are very careful with what we promise and this promise is definitely fulfilled. 

  • Crafted ships are better more often - check
  • There is at least one ship in class which is better even without extra slots - check

Judging by the absurd amount of hercules I have seen lately I feel that something must be wrong with the ship.

The 5.18 turn rate, the small size, the incredibily high base speed compared with other frigates, stern and bow chasers... tell me that this ship might be a bit op.

 

Edited by Intrepido
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56 minutes ago, admin said:

are you sure you are checking ship stats and crafting bonuses right? 

For example hercules stats
There is at least 1 crafteable 40 gunner that is better than Hercules (40 guns) in terms of:

  • HP and mast HP
  • Crew
  • Thickness and mast thickness
  • Sails
  • Broadside weight

Even more - a lot of of 38-44 gun ships in game are better than hercules and will eat hercs for breakfast. 

Crafting bonus
It is several times easier (multiple times easier) to get a well crafted 5v5 if you craft a ship in a capturable port. Usage of notes or admiralty ships does not have any bonuses. You basically cannot get a 5/5 ship from the note. (It is possible but it is extremely rare). You can get a 5/5 ship using crafting a lot more often. 

We are very careful with what we promise and this promise is definitely fulfilled. 

  • Crafted ships are better more often - check
  • There is at least one ship in class which is better even without extra slots - check

problem is.. you cant hit something that can angle away a full broadside with its turn rate. It is also so much more compact than the other frigates  so it can easily hug its side without a proper danger of being boarded considering while the bigger ship is prepping the carronades on the herc wipes out so much crew. Sailing profile, and base speed is just to insane to even think about sailing any other ship since you can just redeem a new one if you loose it.

Remember people arent usually that stupid that they sail broadside to broadside vs a bigger ship with the herc without using its full advantage

Edited by Wyy
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42 minutes ago, admin said:

There is at least 1 crafteable 40 gunner that is better than Hercules (40 guns) in terms of:

  • HP and mast HP
  • Crew
  • Thickness and mast thickness
  • Sails
  • Broadside weight

What about agility? The advantages of  the Hercules is not necessarily in those (or any) stats on paper. It seems to me that its advantages lie more in other features that come to light in battle. Its size means it can hide under many ships' guns, its length means it can hug another 5th-rate and only take half or 1/3rd of the broadside. It's agility means it can always angle, and it's speed means it can disengage to recover when damaged. And 4 bow chasers means it can always hunt down other ships that try to disengage to repair.

It is not hard to shoot the broadside off a Hercules that sails parallel to you at a reasonable distance for your guns to all be able to fire at it, but the Hercules rarely fights like that if the captain knows what he's doing.

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@admin I'd happily duel you to test this underrated herc, ill take a herc and you can take whatever else 5th rate of your choosing.

 

If i win you gotta make @HachiRoku a moderator ;)

I aint ever sail a le req, but I'm sure someone who is decent can show you how it triumphs over all 6th rates

Edited by pit
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Shallows is crap with the DLC ships. Last I sailed a Requin, it could turn the smaller frigates into the wind, allowing it to rageboard very easily in the shallows. Not to mention the Herc is classified as a frigate. I wouldn't (and don't) sail in the shallows unless I'm in a Herc. Take these ships out of the shallows and maybe we can finally find some balance in shallow waters. 

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I believe that the DLC ships are a problem still since you can just redeem one every day where you want it and proceed to have fun (with no cost) sinking ships of players struggling to make a decent ship.  No work done, interferes with balancing development.  DLC ships would be a nice blueprint idea, but not a redeemable every day where you want it and have instant ship ready.  It defeats the rest of the game implementation. If I was a skilled developer struggling to make deadlines, I would not complicate the game theory with DLC until I proved the game was balanced and ready....but I'm not a skilled developer.

Edited by SS Minnow
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2 hours ago, pit said:

Aside  to what you brought up is the Mod problem, a separate issue, but yes i believe there are too many mod stacks (mainly speed) that needs to be reduced again. no reason we need a +4% speed buff mod.

Are naval clocks really all that commonly used, anyway? Aside from the one you get in the tutorial, which I imagine a lot of people promptly lose, or simply never even use, I thought they were extremely rare.

And I'd be leery of any other speed nerfs besides that one, since the <2% ones are far too expensive relative to the bonuses that they give (seriously, 300 douples for 1% and a sail crew debuff???).

For those of us that don't have stockpiles of copper plating in our warehouses, and access to art of ship handling, you're hard pressed to be able to get a 7-8% bonus, which is hardly game-breaking and that requires sacrificing most of your skillbook and mod slots.

Edited by greybuscat
replaced a word with a more precise one

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1 hour ago, greybuscat said:

Are naval clocks really all that commonly used, anyway? Aside from the one you get in the tutorial, which I imagine a lot of people promptly lose, or simply never even use, I thought they were extremely rare.

And I'd be leery of any other speed nerfs besides that one, since the <2% ones are far too expensive relative to the bonuses that they give (seriously, 300 douples for 1% and a sail crew debuff???).

For those of us that don't have stockpiles of copper plating in our warehouses, and access to art of ship handling, you're hard pressed to be able to get a 7-8% bonus, which is hardly game-breaking and that requires sacrificing most of your skillbook and mod slots.

You simply have no idea do you. Thats ok your a new kid so ill lay it out for you:

Naval action API index for modules all in game

Improved Sextant Ship speed + 4 %
Copper Plating Ship speed + 3 %
Speed decrease − 10 %
Basic Quadrant Ship speed + 3 %
Naval Clock Ship speed + 4 %
Crew transfer speed 4
Navy Hull Refit Ship speed + 2.5 %
Cotton Sails Ship speed + 2 %
Crooked Hull Refit Ship speed + 2 %

Take your pick

"speed nerfs" umm wrong terminology.

"For those of us that don't have stockpiles of copper"? umm Esteros is making 68k, Little Harbour 822. Any player with a brain cell can stockpile at such low prices. 

learn a bit more before you comment

Any way this topic is not about mods but DLC ships vs Crafted Ships. back to topic

Edited by pit
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6 hours ago, admin said:

Crafting bonus
It is several times easier (multiple times easier) to get a well crafted 5v5 if you craft a ship in a capturable port. Usage of notes or admiralty ships does not have any bonuses. You basically cannot get a 5/5 ship from the note. (It is possible but it is extremely rare). You can get a 5/5 ship using crafting a lot more often. 

I assume you've changed the RNG with one of the last few patches,  because overall I've gotten as frequently 4/5 hercs as I've crafted 4/5 ships. And I only ever crafted a single gold ship. However, the thing is that while I don't sail the Hercules so often (for one thing I prefer line-ships, for another I don't like/can't get used to the fire pattern of the herc), I'd want to have a good one at hand for when I need to/want to use one. So what I can do is I can redeem a Hercules approximately every 25 hours and if the RNG-gods are not with me, I can just sell it to the store (I assume you still can, I haven't checked since the patch). This costs me absolutely nothing, no resources, no reals, it even makes me a small profit for every ship I discard. And however unfavourably the RNG-gods are tuned, chances are I'll eventually get a good Hercules that I can stow away in my docks until I have use of it.

Meanwhile, to get the same guarantee of a good, 4-slot or better, crafted ship, you would have to spend a lot of resources, reals and transportation time before the RNG-gods would smile on you. 

DLC-ships may have rarer crafting bonuses, but since they are freely redeemable and discardable it would still be easier to get a crafting bonus than with crafted ships that you can't afford to discard as many ships in trying to get a good crafting bonus.

 

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In short the Dlc ships have kept players in this game. Thats my opinion. I could ofc be wrong and the DLC ships have made players leave. But when we got the Dlc patch we got a huge spike in in numbers of players online again. I do belive it is because of the Dlc and not for another reason.

Lets say we drop Dlc ships. How will we get money so  devs can keep server running and pay them to keep putting content in the game?

- Monthly fee?

- Keep selling cosmetic stuff?

- By selling new games.

Do I belive a Dlc ship would not be sold if it is nerfed so it is no good? Yes I do.  Neither do I think it should be superior.

For me the Dlc ship can be here ore not. But would like to hear how ppl actually will finance the game in the long run. It is easy to say no to dlc ship, but there is a consequence to that to. How to fund the game then.

Edited by staun

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8 minutes ago, Anolytic said:

I assume you've changed the RNG with one of the last few patches,  because overall I've gotten as frequently 4/5 hercs as I've crafted 4/5 ships. And I only ever crafted a single gold ship. However, the thing is that while I don't sail the Hercules so often (for one thing I prefer line-ships, for another I don't like/can't get used to the fire pattern of the herc), I'd want to have a good one at hand for when I need to/want to use one. So what I can do is I can redeem a Hercules approximately every 25 hours and if the RNG-gods are not with me, I can just sell it to the store (I assume you still can, I haven't checked since the patch). This costs me absolutely nothing, no resources, no reals, it even makes me a small profit for every ship I discard. And however unfavourably the RNG-gods are tuned, chances are I'll eventually get a good Hercules that I can stow away in my docks until I have use of it.

Meanwhile, to get the same guarantee of a good, 4-slot or better, crafted ship, you would have to spend a lot of resources, reals and transportation time before the RNG-gods would smile on you. 

DLC-ships may have rarer crafting bonuses, but since they are freely redeemable and discardable it would still be easier to get a crafting bonus than with crafted ships that you can't afford to discard as many ships in trying to get a good crafting bonus.

 

And what happens to all the ships you craft to get a better ship. You break them up ore just maybe you sell them for a profit, thats give way more than what you can get for selling the Herc and le Reguin to the game. But I agree with you a Dlc ship should not be sold for reals.

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6 hours ago, pit said:

@admin I'd happily duel you to test this underrated herc, ill take a herc and you can take whatever else 5th rate of your choosing.

 

If i win you gotta make @HachiRoku a moderator ;)

I aint ever sail a le req, but I'm sure someone who is decent can show you how it triumphs over all 6th rates

how did you get hurt with your herculses and ruqin))))

 

im ready fight vs ur herc on 5 rate and requin vs my 6 rate))))

but since I often do this, come on this duel will be at 40k doublons? time is doublons... :D

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6 hours ago, pit said:

@admin I'd happily duel you to test this underrated herc, ill take a herc and you can take whatever else 5th rate of your choosing.

Trial by combat heh?

If i was given 1 dollar for every duel offer I would be rich. There will be no duel. Multiple reasons

  • Accepting a duel as a dev is always lose lose.
    • If we lose we are not better off.
    • if we win (with ease) we will be blamed for using developer knowledge. (That's why there are no devtools on live servers - we are paranoid in this regard - nobody can hack if there are no tools to hack). Toxic haters even complained about bias when we moved a capture point in one port after a port battle because we thought of a better more interesting place for it. 
  • But we support duel challenges and give prizes when well known players try to prove the mechanic. We might offer someone to participate - we like picking Bronn Champion from people we know. 
  • We only will consider duels to the death (which means full account deletion for the loser) otherwise the parties can agree to a certain result if there is no cost for the loss. 

 

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