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Better Ships for All!


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3 minutes ago, OjK said:

And now I will blow away all discussion about DLC's not beeing Pay to Win.

@admin Can we kindly ask for a stat breakdown of how much percantage of TOP10 Light Ships Event was claimed by sailing and boarding with Le Requin?

Is it 100% or 95%?

And that's about 30.000 Doubloons available every week exclusively for owner's of Le Trollship DLC

Would be a very interesting statistic, may be completely different from what we expect though

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Just now, z4ys said:

The difference between AI captured ships and dlc ships is that the AI build is random while dlc is 2 clicks. The effort here varies a lot.

not to mention but all ai ships when caped are something crew space, not even worth taking into battle its a liability, DLC ships dont create pvp they create the openness to willingly sacrifice the ship in pvp, mindset "its just a herc  or its just a requin i can redeem a new one if this gets sunk its no loss to me", most ships lost in patrol zones or pvp with DLC ships are base ships blue quality or purple with basic or easy to acquire mods. with in regards to hercs pen or reload skill books and with requin boarding skills. there is no variety u dont get brawling requins and boarding hercs, it doesnt work that way. if u were to go with the stats between oceans/ bellona's compared to hercs and requins, ur comparing high end expensive warships that rarely are used outside ganking fleets and instantly redeemable 5th and 6th rate ships the stats will show high death count for hercs and requins over high end 1st and 3rd rates. because of the frequency they can be built used or deployed. we dont have huge bellona or ocean fleets roaming around hunting for things we got massive herc and requin fleets. as they are the throw away ships we can easily replace

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14 minutes ago, admin said:

It's not throwing off ANY stats 
Hercules and Le requin owners gave players 2200 kills (they sank 2200 times) they sank more than any other ship. In fact 3 ships contribute 50% of deaths (sinking on the war server). Basic cutter, brig (tutorial one) le requin and hercules is 55% of deaths on War server during last 30 days. 

I don't get you mindset point. It lacks any logic. I find your logic strange for a player with 5x pvp KD.

Ehm, so this also means that the majority of ships used are Le Req and Hercules right or am I thinking wrong here? So why is that so? How many of the ships that sank Hercs and Requins were also Hercs and Requins? We have so many ships in this game and only 3 of them already make 55% of deaths on the server? There are a lot more who didn't sink too. I can't remember when I last saw a player in a Cerberus. Even Surprises are relatively rare (Granted that this can be a subjective observation and I simply don't meet them)

14 minutes ago, admin said:

Going to die without fear using basic mods IS PVP mindset . Its the best mindset. You say they are throwaway ships? What about free 5th rates from NPCs? it takes like 4 mins to find one and capture. You can use 1 only herc per day but you can use 20+ captured 5th rates or more depending on your free time. Why dont people have the same mindset on captured 5th rates? 

While I agree that you can easily capture your PVP 5th rates, you can't choose what they are made of. Sure you can go around and capture until you find something good or just use whatever you get. But I think for many players this can lead to a point were you use captured throw away ships just for the sake of throwing them away shortly after. Besides I can imagine that it is a quite a task for a new player to capture a 5th rate if he sails out to find one (again, don't know the situation in the capital waters but I read about the complaints regarding enemy NPCs)

Also players usually want the best they can get. From all the discussions I saw about PVP I get the impression that the majority does it for the rewards and not really for pvp itself. Otherwise we wouldn't had this outcry about pvp rewards. So your goal is to win as much as possible and increase the chance of doing so. Look at the complaints about SOLs being too expensive. Players want them because they usually give you a higher chance to win. The casual sailor doesn't want to use a sabicu crew space frigate for that. You don't get that out of the players with so many woods and configurations that are basically useless in their eyes. Unfortunately, you can't force your PVP mindset onto players.

Additionally it seems like the ship market is dead already. Very few ships are crafted compared to before and many are sold with a ridiculous price tag (At least it seems like this for me. A casual semi carebear, who doesn't have the reals :D and I don't know the situations in the capitals). You either craft yourself, ask around for a long time orgo the easy way via DLC. A more handy feature to get ships crafted via a black board or something else, like @Liq always wanted would be great. The NPC ships offered on the market often aren't quite good too. Except you like to basic cutter around till you find something or a specific ship you like. And advising people to using captured NPC or DLC ships surely doesn't help the ship market and can't be the overall answer.

So I think there is a point in saying that frequently available free ships can have a negative impact (don't mistake this as a plea to remove that from the game).

14 minutes ago, admin said:

They ask for more incentives for pvp and then they complain about lack of fear mindset
Then they talk about overpowered mods - and then immediately complain about the fact that DLC ships only use basic mods

I don't know if DLC ship users use cheap basic mods or not but I believe there are enough who have rather good mods on them. Licinio always says that his Requin is worth millions. Better and more experienced PVP players can afford them. But the ones who get started and are new to the game and face this very high learning curve can be discouraged by that. Maybe they don't want to be in a Clan or maybe even their clan can't help them to sustain their playstyle. Besides the fact that a player should always be able to do this by himself. They have trouble to earn a good income and afford mods and even good ships and when they finally do it comes with the fear of losing them soon to some players who redeem their ship every day and are also far better then them. I appreciate the introduction of ship insurance  because it is a very good feature for those players and helps them but I can also totally understand their overall frustration. Of course they could do just pay for the DLC and do this too but do we really want this to be the answer to problems of beginners?

 

We have this discussion about DLC ships and their impact on the game since they were introduced and besides beginners even veteran players have some complaints. Don't you think that there is something to this? At all?

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2 minutes ago, Crimson Sunrise said:

not to mention but all ai ships when caped are something crew space, not even worth taking into battle

I like my player crafted crewspace ships. Wish I had redeemed the Diana and coni classic with that inbuild.

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For those who complain that captured ships are no good...Build your own.  They don't have to be expensive T/WO Cadillacs. I build Mahogany/Sabicu ships all the time for patrol zone fights.  I've even gotten purples and tons of 4/5's. 

I don't actually take my Herc into the shallow patrol zone cause it seems like overkill and I usually have good mods on it.  My preference there is for snows (which I build cheaply).  I wouldn't care in the least if you took Hercs out of shallow patrol.

The biggest problem I see (IMHO) is that the Req is not a 5th rate.  Making her a 5th rate would help the noobs out in the reinforcement zones.  Or we could just get rid of the ugly POS.

 

Edited by Angus MacDuff
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35 minutes ago, Cecil Selous said:

We have this discussion about DLC ships and their impact on the game since they were introduced and besides beginners even veteran players have some complaints. Don't you think that there is something to this? At all?

The complaints are understandable. We just think that the benefits outweigh the negatives - mainly with the amount of PVP content generated by the ships. Which will probably disappear with additional restrictions. These ships were already removed from port battles by player requests and now we have less port battles (of course for multiple reasons).

We believe everything that is changed or added should increase pvp count. 

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3 minutes ago, admin said:

The complaints are understandable. We just think that the benefits outweigh the negatives - mainly with the amount of PVP content generated by the ships. Which will probably disappear with additional restrictions. These ships were already removed from port battles by player requests and now we have less port battles (of course for multiple reasons).

We believe everything that is changed or added should increase pvp count. 

Ok, we will see. I definitely look forward to your proposed solo patrol zones and other PZ roe changes.

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ppl are logically inclined to fight with the risk of losing when they have easily-available nice ships that are also inexpensive in terms of time spent in game (that is ship DLCs)

+ Ship DLCs fund new ships in game

+ Ship DLCs attract ppl with not much time available to play (ie more fights)

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Quality>Quantity. You could make the entire game DLC ships and there'd be wayy more pvp but is that really desirable? 
With admin's principle on "every update adding more pvp" this would be okay, but that's where it falls through because really it isn't ok and wouldn't work on a large scale.
So why think it works on a small scale? Drinking a tiny amount of poison doesn't matter, it's still poison.

The facts of the matter...

1. DLC ships have apparently increased pvp

2. DLC ships outmatch similar ships of their class by quite the margin (herc mostly)

3. Shallows have been rekt from them

 

In admins words you can capture 60 frigates a day. So that makes me wonder why we needed DLC ships? It's seems like welfare for people who really don't need it.
Of course people who bought the ships will always try to defend their purchase, it's only natural. But why is it that in admin's words we can't have more DLC ships by the same method? It's unsubstainable to give away free ships every day to players. It makes them lazy and decreases pvp quality in favor of instant actions, not to mention for every DLC ship added means a hit to the economy for regular ships.

Defend the REQ and HERC all you like, as far as the facts go they do more to harm the game, and in a technical sense they fall under PAY2WIN and there's no contesting that.
It's funny, if we had about 2 months patience this wouldn't be an issue, flags would be out and cosmetic DLC would be at the forefront with more on the way. But now we have these DLC ships that everybody who bought wants more of, yet the game can't support because they're the antithesis to what NA is all about.

I consider patch 27 the turning point for this game getting on track once more, as soon as I saw DLC ships in the patch notes prior I knew that it was going to be a huge problem down the line and I guess I wasn't wrong about that :mellow:

Edited by Slim McSauce
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7 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

Quality>Quantity. You could make the entire game DLC ships and there'd be wayy more pvp but is that really desirable? 
With admin's principle on "every update adding more pvp" this would be okay, but that's where it falls through because really it isn't ok and wouldn't work on a large scale.
So why think it works on a small scale? Drinking a tiny amount of poison doesn't matter, it's still poison.

The facts of the matter...

1. DLC ships have apparently increased pvp

2. DLC ships outmatch similar ships of their class by quite the margin (herc mostly)

 

In admins words you can capture 60 frigates a day. So that makes me wonder why we needed DLC ships? It's seems like welfare for people who really don't need it.
Of course people who bought the ships will always try to defend their purchase, it's only natural. But why is it that in admin's words we can't have more DLC ships by the same method? It's unsubstainable to give away free ships every day to players. It makes them lazy and decreases pvp quality in favor of instant actions, not to mention for every DLC ship added means a hit to the economy for regular ships.

Defend the REQ and HERC all you like, as far as the facts go they do more to harm the game, and in a technical sense they fall under PAY2WIN and there's no contesting that.
It's funny, if we had about 2 months patience this wouldn't be an issue, flags would be out and cosmetic DLC would be at the forefront with more on the way. But now we have these DLC ships that everybody who bought wants more of, yet the game can't support because they're the antithesis to what NA is all about.

I consider patch 27 the turning point for this game getting on track once more, as soon as I saw DLC ships in the patch notes prior I knew that it was going to be a huge problem down the line and I guess I wasn't wrong about that :mellow:

Well my guess is in the end, there would have been no players left without Dlc ships, except maybe 100-200. I rather have some fights, then non. But it is a fair point that only the right PvP matters. Rather play alone with a few guys and it is the right PvP.

 

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Just now, staun said:

Well my guess is in the end, there would have been no players left without Dlc ships, except maybe 100-200. I rather have some fights, then non. But it is a fair point that only the right PvP matters. Rather play alone with a few guys and it is the right PvP.

Not true at all.... there was more pvp prior to DLC ships and more PBs. Something like 2x more last year.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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4 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

Not true at all.... I shouldn't even have to say it but there was more pvp prior to DLC ships and more PBs

So you say the Dlc ship killed Pb’s and PvP? 

Must say I have a hard time to belive that Dlc killed the PB. I would have thought it was all the changes that came with the merge and clan implementing. But I will take your word for it.

More ore less PvP. Well guess admin can proberbly find the numbers. Thefact is that the Dlc increased the avarage number of players in the game and must likely numbers playing. There is no sign that the numbers would have gone up, without the Dlc patch. My guess is that the more player the more PvP. But neither of us know what is right ore wrong without actually numbers.

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1 hour ago, Slim McSauce said:


So why think it works on a small scale? Drinking a tiny amount of poison doesn't matter, it's still poison.

 

that's true. spoon of poison ruins the whole barrel of whiskey

yet here i think the benefits are obvious. 20% of battles, 30 % of pvp deaths (55% if you take add basic cutter and brig that mostly die in pve). 

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1 minute ago, Slim McSauce said:

No I'm saying your proposal that DLC ships have saved pvp is wrong, and perhaps it's a bit of the opposite. I've never said pvp is dead.

You are right your point is because of Dlc there are less PvP. The second opinion from you abouth pb’s how did the Dlc bring Down the numbers?

Btw your right you didn’t say PvP was dead. But now where we are splitting words, where did I say they savef it?

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4 minutes ago, admin said:

that's true. spoon of poison ruins the whole barrel of whiskey

yet here i think the benefits are obvious. 20% of battles, 30 % of pvp deaths. 

Well not sure it is that easy to tell the effect on PvP. Ppl might have sailed other ships if not for the Dlc ships. But I am sure you could monitor an increase in plsyers comming back and play after the Dlc patch. Those playerd most like added an extra contribution to PvP.

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5 minutes ago, admin said:

that's true. spoon of poison ruins the whole barrel of whiskey

yet here i think the benefits are obvious. 20% of battles, 30 % of pvp deaths. 

If it wasn't req/herc it would be some other meta ships so I can't really fuss.

Still I don't like how prevalent these ships are, seems like half of all my battles are against these exclusively.

I'll be honest, I haven't bought either DLC ship. I have no problem keeping involved in pvp with using cheap/crafted ships while not doing anything for money besides selling what I get from traders. Still it seems like people like these ships not because it keeps them from quiting, but because it allows them to make money doing pvp without really putting any money in.

For premium ships they're awfully common.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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7 hours ago, admin said:

People who complain about DLC ships always complain about DLCs in every game. They don't want subscription, and yet they dont want DLC and demand things without offering means to achieve them. They now complain that we have flags. Their shouting hides possibly real complaints (about turn rates or maybe HP)

Nope. I bought DLC's on 3 different accounts and I don't mind DLCs as long as it is not pay to win, because I like this game and I want to support it. But the state those ships where in when they where release as DLCs should have been followed by an immediate apology statement from you guys because they where so OP players where forced to buy them. Edit to avoid wrath of the gods: "Imho - I ❤️Devs ❤️"

I only commented (= 😭) about the Hercules in the beginning because I did not use the Le Requin that much. I think the Hercules is close to properly balanced now, the high BR makes it OP when screening shallow water pb fleets, but at least they are out of the pb them self so great! In the shallow patrol you can bring 2 normal shallow water ships for every Hercules, so it is not OP there anymore.
The Le Requin is another story. I do hate that ship because I can't manual sail it properly, but I ended up fitting all mine with Elite Pirate Rig refit and that is OP fast, period. Te/Wo would hit speed cap in battle at 90% sails left and no other speed skill or mod. That is after the nerf some time ago, that from my point of view only nerfed the speed directly with the wind. I did not notice any other change when testing my ships..  But I have not used it in the last 2-3 months so this info could be outdated.

I'm not sure how the physics works in this game, but I do believe that the insane sail force the Le Requin has in the up wind direction, gives it an OP ability to push other square rigged ships against the wind (and then boarding). The acceleration/deceleration it self tells a tale imo, it's like a power boat ffs. But I have never sailed a Le Requin with out pirate rig refit/Elite Pirate Rig refit, so maybe it is not so stupidly OP fast if it was unable to use those mods. 

Anyway I got boarded by one of the many famous Le Requin pirate Captains in the Nassau Patrol a week ago. And the way that was done the me, my crew and my beautiful but to slow Niagara was so incredibly annoying and ugly! so it is the main reason I'm posting this comment (= 😭x2). I did learned that I should stay down wind form that player when I'm in a shallow square rigged ship.. But then again I need to be upwind of a Le Requin to have a chance at sinking it.. So I really hate that ship!

Edited by Tiedemann
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3 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

If it wasn't req/herc it would be some other meta ships so I can't really fuss.

That'd be extremely interesting to know. After dlc, did overall pvp go down, stay the same or increase? Did the dlc's do something or did meta shift from other ships and away from PB in favour of OW/patrol where dlc can be used? Stuff like that...

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Lets be honest.  There will always be one ship that is better than the others in it's class.  I've heard stories of super Wasas and Cerbs.  Lightning fast Surprises and OP 1st rates.  Many times it is player preference and skill but other times it is the ship or the super mods.  There will always be a "best" ship.  Generally the superior players find the best ship/mods for their play style and then they're OP and unbeatable.  It won't change.  I've killed the OP Herc in a Snow and I generally just ignore Reqs and i'm not even all that good. 

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2 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Cerbs

WTF!!?!? I must've dozed off in that class.

edit:

About that... Sell cerb as dlc, I'd frikkin' buy and use it. Moving ships is a pain and I can drop dlc's wherever I find myself.

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4 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Lets be honest.  There will always be one ship that is better than the others in it's class.  I've heard stories of super Wasas and Cerbs.  Lightning fast Surprises and OP 1st rates.  Many times it is player preference and skill but other times it is the ship or the super mods.  There will always be a "best" ship.  Generally the superior players find the best ship/mods for their play style and then they're OP and unbeatable.  It won't change.  I've killed the OP Herc in a Snow and I generally just ignore Reqs and i'm not even all that good. 

yes but those OP ships shouldn't also be the ships that are only acquirable through real world money. Premium ships should be neat, niche, and uncommon. There should still be a fear of loss with these ships maybe some benefit to keeping one as long as possible without sinking to make it interesting. I'm not concerned with future DLC ships but the ones we have now are equivelent to a basic cutter in their status.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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