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Flags, Flags, Flags - 2 - Flag proposals only

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On 11/30/2018 at 7:27 AM, rediii said:

why not both?

it is a valid flag for that period so i see no obstacle they also traded all over the world. 

the-flag-of-the-dutch-east-india-company

Edited by Thonys
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On 11/30/2018 at 11:05 AM, Intrepido said:

78111_ml.jpg

Royal Flag. XVIII century

 

37846015425_b90e05b35f_o.png

First Merchant Naval Flag until 1762.

 

 

disenos-espanola-escogidos-Carlos-III_12

Right flag. Flag of the merchant fleet under Carlos III, 1785.

 

 

38015853374_feee7ef367_o.png

Burgundy cross. Yellow variant sometimes used in naval vessels. XVII and XVIII centuries.

 

 

Bandera_de_Costas_1700-1771.png

 

Flag used in coastal and maritime defenses. XVIII century

 

 

03-BanderadeFerrol-F01.jpg

Flag of the Naval Base of El Ferrol. XVIII century. Source: Naval Museum of Madrid.

 

 

02-BanderadeCadiz-F01.jpg

Flag of the Naval Base of Cadiz. XVIII century. Source: Naval Museum of Madrid.

 

 

04-BanderadeCartagena-F01.jpg

Flag of the Naval Base of Cartagena, Spain. XVIII century. Source: Naval Museum of Madrid.

 

navio-empavesado-banderas.jpg

Gracias Intrépido.

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PuntaColares_MuratureJose_1865.png

Punta Collares naval battle

Liberal Wars in Portugal gave way to the defacto independence of the Brasil territories. The naval flag and jack below are from 1822 - 1831

Ensign

Flag of Brazil (1870â1889).svg

Jack

Naval Jack of Brazil.svg

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The Scottish Royal Flag.  I'd switch to Brit for this.  Its far too English there at the moment. (and no, that's not the Scottish flag under my name...It's Ogo Pogo, a sea monster in Lake Okanagan.)

1200px-Royal_Banner_of_Scotland_svg.png

Edited by Angus MacDuff
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nl-pr2a.gif

double[ stateflag ][ prince flag (6 stripes)]  ( common)

battleoftexel.jpg

 

nl-pr2b.gif

The Double state flag with one white stripe added. (7 stripes) (rare)

 

nl-pr3b.gif

The Triple state flag with two white stripes added. (11 stripes) (rare)

 

 in the 17th century, there was frequent use of a double-tricolor version of the Dutch flag.  In a picture of the Dutch East India Company Return Fleet in Batavia, triple tricolors are worn by some of the vessels.  In addition, there were double tricolors separated by white stripes, sometimes of the same width as the others, sometimes a good deal wider.  This appears to be a flag of similar type.  In the same way, the Dutch jack of triangles was seen in many variants.  It appears that as long as the three colors were shown and there was a clear impression of the design, no one bothered much about specific numbers of stripes or arrangement
of triangles. 

cource https://fotw.info/flags/nl_prvlg.html#9v

Edited by Thonys
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 US  Nation (rare) 1825

[Unofficial Flag of New York City until 1915] (rare)

 

Unofficial Flag Used Until 1825-1915

[Unofficial Flag of New York City until 1915] image by Mark Sensen, 21 July 2001

The seal of the city of New York, adopted in an earlier form in 1686, bears the legend SIGILLUM CIVITATIS NOVI EBORACI which means simply “The Seal of the City of New York”: Eboracum was the Roman name for York, the titular seat of James II as Duke of York.


(before 1915 an unofficial flag was in use: a white field with the seal of that time)

In September 1609 Henry Hudson, commander of the Dutch East India Company (VOC) ship Halve Maen (Half Moon) discovered Manhattan. The VOC however was not interested, although in the next years still some voyages were made by Dutch skippers. In 1614 exclusive privileges were given to the United New Netherland Company. In 1915 Fort Nassau was build near modern Albany, but the company was dissolved in 1618. In 1621 the newly-organized Dutch West India Company (GWC) was given an octroi by the Dutch Estates General for the monopoly of America and the west coast of Africa. Most attractive was the trade in beaver skins, and a beaver was the main feature on the New Netherland provincial seal. In 1625 Director-General Pieter Minuit bought the island of Manhattan from the Indians and built there Fort Amsterdam and laid the foundations of New Amsterdam which became the capital of New Netherland and the other Dutch Colonies in the Americas.

King Charles II of Great Britain disregarded the rights of the Dutch over New Netherland and granted it in 1664 to his brother James, Duke of York and Albany. The latter as Lord High Admiral of England set up an expedition. Because the defense of the colony was very weak, Director-General Peter Stuyvesant had to surrender on 29 August/8 September **. The very same day both the province and the city were renamed New York in honor of their new ruler. However Dutch form of government by Schout, Burgomasters and Schepens was continued, until English style mayor and aldermen were installed on 14/24 June ** 1665. With the Peace of Breda in 1667 the Dutch recognized their lost definitive, but in return got Suriname.
 

The New York City Flag from c.1825 to 1915 is unofficially described as being the New York City Seal in blue on white. However there is an American habit to be less than accurate when describing such things. In this case when they say "Seal" they really mean the Coat of Arms. The proof of this is in three places. In an 1825 print of the opening of the Erie Canal, the flag is shown on a ship in a wood cut illustration as being the arms on a plain field. In a lithograph regarding Abraham Lincoln's death in 1865, the flag is shown as white with the arms in the center and a black mourning border. The best proof is the Annin & Co. Catalog (I have seen several from 1905 to 1912) which shows the arms (as illustrated here) on white and states the flag can have the "seal" in blue or in its proper colors. NAVA published this information in American City Flags. 
Dave Martucci, 4 July 2010

John B. Pine's 1915 book on the flag and seal (op. cit., page 82), says: "Up to the present time the City of New York has never possessed an official flag in any true sense of the term. The flag which has been displayed on the City Hall, consisting of a white field bearing the seal of the City, was never formally adopted by the City authorities…"

Two points in this statement are worthy of comment. First, Pine notes that no flag before 1915 was official, although one was apparently in use for a number of years, since the aldermen from time to time provided funds for the flag's replacement. There is no definite information as to what its proportions may have been or who may have designed it. Second, Pine speaks of "a white field bearing the seal of the City," but no illustration of a flag with the seal rather than the arms is available. Dr. Whitney Smith of the Flag Research Center believes that "seal" is used here to mean "arms," an understandable allusion since the seal's primary element is the city's arms, and those illustrations that do survive of previous city flags lend support to Dr. Smith's opinion.

Edited by Thonys
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 VP Admiralty  of Zeeland    ( Middelburg )  (one of the independent admirality s )    Zeeland ( Rare)

Admiralty's existed from 1572 - 1795-  till the beginning of the~ Bataafsche Republic  Napoleonic era it became one marine department

 

the other Admiralitys are (You can see them as independent clans) more about this subject: https://advanderzee.com/2014/04/01/de-admiraliteit-van-rotterdam/

  1. De Maze : (Rotterdam)
  2. Amsterdam
  3. Friesland : (Dokkum, after 1645 Harlingen)
  4. Zeeland (Middelburg)   
  5. Noorderkwartier: (Hoorn en Enkhuizen) 
  6.  There was also the  : admiraliteitsraad - admirality board te Vlissingen

 

 

Luctor et Emergo        (crest wappen spell expression)   (ik worstel en kom boven / Voorwaarts  met de strijd )

zeeuwse-vlag-luctor-et-emergo2.jpg?w=300

zeeuwse-vlag-luctor-et-emergo.jpg?w=300&

Admiraliteit  Zeeland   /   Admiralty Zeeland 

oude_zeeuwse_vlag2.png

 

on page 18 https://issuu.com/nldverenigingvoorvlaggenkunde/docs/_vlag_17      

at the port of Willemstad

https://johnnyvanhaeften.com/news-publications/artists/bonaventura-peeters/shipping-in-choppy-seas-off-willemstad (NL)

3

54397f21-e260-4b84-9fc2-21f767989d3f_570 ( possibly city Sluis front mast ) and Admirality flag  Zeeland on the stern - top mast ship of state -  nation flag

 

 

schepen-met-spaanse-englese-en-nederland

left ship(  all to the left at the stern)

Bonaventura_Peeters_(I)_-_View_of_Middellook at Middelburg (city)

 Bonaventura Peeters I
 
Dutch
Gezicht op Middelburg

it not strange that the painter always saw this flag he lived in the northern part of what is called now Belgie (Belgium) and in that part the admiralty of Zeeland was dominant .

storm_sea_bal226673_hi.jpg storm at sea

 

 

 

1.Admiraliteit van de Maze (Admiralty of the Maze)

image068.jpg     image069.jpg Admiraliteit van de Maze (Rotterdam)

 

 

Admiralty of Amsterdam  (white squadron and red squadron) 

image044.jpg Amsterdamse Admiraliteit  

Two ship flags of the Amsterdam Admiralty are known: a red and a white ship's flag. They should, according to English example, be conducted by the white and red squadron of the Amsterdam Admiralty. A blue flag is not known. The flags are depicted on a flag map from the end of the 18th century that represents the trophies of the Van Braam squadron in the Indian Archipelago in 1794 (pict.). In the head of this flag card are the flags of the Amsterdam Admiralty. They consist of respectively a red and a white cloth, hemmed on the top and bottom with a red-white-blue strip. In the middle is the weapon of the Committed Councils as described above. There under a blue ribbon, presumably with the words PUGNO PRO PATRIA in gold letters. 

image018.jpg example  of the detail

 

 

vlag-west-friesland-historische-vlag.jpg  @admin West Friesland  (the flagpole is on the left side of the flag-

West  Friesland

found on chart van Keulen first picture third row.

page 14

and also 

https://www.rubylane.com/item/1415055-f174/Very-18th-Century-Table-all-shipx27s   

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

nl_sg.gif states general flagimage043.jpg early flag

Generaliteitsvlag

[States-General flag] by Jarig Bakker, 8 Jun 2005, after Hesman's Flaggeboek (1708).states general flag

 

htzhem3.jpg @admin   reproduced by me  for internet/ game quality ; free of use 

 red flag :   (dutch )  Staten Generaal 

(english)  (states general)

 

 

generaliteitsvlag

[States-General jack] by Jarig Bakker, 8 Jun 2005, after Hesman's Flaggeboek (1708).states general flag

generaliteits flag 

https://fotw.info/flags/nl_sg.html#sg

 

text https://books.google.nl/books?id=McMTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA88&dq=muller+vlag&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=McvsUu6rAYO50QXpu4HQCw&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=muller vlag&f=true

 

 

Edited by Thonys
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On 11/29/2018 at 12:22 PM, admin said:

Old proposals in this topic are taken into account too

PS I mentioned the Snake ensign in Flag, Flag, Flag 1 as a naval flag used by French traders in Martinique. Those traders being mainly slave traders, I think it wouldn't be wise to implement it in NA. 

6474198.jpg?522

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VP

rare flag 

 

enkhuiz1.gif

Enkhuizen (1711) (flag chart)

http://www.ronalddejager.nl/vlootschouw-enkhuizen/?_gallery=gg-27-676  oldest known painting

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

VOC  (Trading Compagnie from the east to the west)

1_VOC.gif

nl-voca1.gif Amsterdam  (  nl~voc18.jpg right one already in the game)

 

Rare (very)

[VOC Enkhuizen Chamber] by Mark Sensen,  Enkhuizen

-

nl-vocho.gif Hoorn

-

nl-vocmi.gif Middelburg zeeland

-

nl-vocho.gif Hoorn

-

nl-vocde.gif Delft

 

 

 

-

common

1280px-Bloedvlag.svg.png

blood flag no mercy (Dutch)[perhaps it needs puffy sleeves] (bleu ) 

DSC_0381-3.jpg

738px-Bloedvlag.png

The_Dutch_in_Tripoli.jpgLieve Pietersz Verschuier, Dutch ships bomb Tripoli in a punitive expedition against the Barbary pirates, 

Edited by Thonys

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1 hour ago, Sparkydog said:

On behalf of the US, we would respectfully request the Gadsden flag for our navy.

Please post the flag and paintings of it being used if possible :) Thanks a ton.

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2 hours ago, Sparkydog said:

On behalf of the US, we would respectfully request the Gadsden flag for our navy.

The first US navy jack is the Naval version of that....  Its in the DLC

 

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flag6.jpg.b203dd7d03c9f0e20e0194fdb150b1c2.jpgflag3.jpg.072175e2f793da444790275d07c43c05.jpg

Flag of Kurfürstentum Brandenburg 1695 + Kurbrandenbrugische fleet under full flags. Painted 1684 by Lieve Pietersz Verschuier

 

 

flag2.jpg.736a2ebfa049e1ef637a4d5e278e14e4.jpg

Iron Cross used on prussian warships around 1816

 

 

flag5.jpg.140c0a5e3c86e0e28798c0fd459691bf.jpg

How to hoist colors on prussian warships under Admiral Prinz Adalberts

 

flag1.thumb.jpg.dfe97d226db46fd39e5723cfc89f9e88.jpg

Prussian yacht 1704 but painted 1904 by Willy Stöwer

 

Source: Deutsche Flaggen - Edition Maritim by Jörg- M. Hormann

Edited by z4ys
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IMG_0004.thumb.PNG.3646ef5ec89c9c3fb47e8eee3bba219e.PNG

Esek Hopkins was the commander-in-chief of the US Navy in 1775.   The flag that Hopkins used as his personal standard on his flagship the Alfred, is the one we would now recognize. It's likely that John Paul Jones, as the first lieutenant on the Alfred, ran it up the gaff.

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Wow- very interesting book sir. Thank you for linking it here.  In a cursory examination it does mention that the Gadsden flag was the personal standard of the commodore  and was flown from the Alfred on the maintopmast head.  So while I can not yet find evidence of it being flown as the ensign - it was definitely flown on a US warship.

 

 

 

 

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I would really like to see the "hanging" St Andrew's Cross from 1710 in the game. As seen here on the Poltava:

14.jpg

Quote

В 1710—1712 гг. на белом флаге андреевский крест из крыжа переносится на середину полотнища, причем крестовины не доходили ни до углов, ни до краев полотнища, образуя, таким образом, так называемый «висящий» андреевский крест (табл. I, рис. 33). Такой флаг мы видим на гравюре Пикара, изображающей 54-пушечный корабль «Полтава», спущенный в 1712 г. (рис. 14). Этот рисунок флага был переходящим и получил свое завершение во флаге, в котором крестовины доходят до углов, полотнища, т. е. идут по диагоналям (табл. I, рис. 34; табл. 11, рис. 12). Очевидно, тогда же изменился и рисунок белого галерного флага, в котором андреевский крест из крыжа был перенесен на все полотнище флага (табл. I, рис. 43). Флаг этого рисунка с петровских времен победоносно развивался на многих морях и океанах; под этим флагом сражались многие славные русские адмиралы, и назывался он «андреевским флагом». 

Source: https://flot.com/publications/books/shelf/flag/3.htm

Also, I haven't seen this exact flag in any sources yet:

russianflag.png.b10088aeee96ecd5b45f1cd25741e380.png

But I really hope we will see in-game the naval jack where the St Andrew's Cross is thicker and in blue:

Naval_Jack_of_Russia.svg

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I've come across more sources on historical Russian flags, not that I can make much sense of them since I don't read a word of Russian unfortunately.

1380286497_0472.jpg

The three last flags here should all make it into the DLC someday.

1380286531_1f50.jpg

1380286465_8f54.jpg   1380286465_5c4e.jpg

1380286393_245e.jpg  1380286393_8096.jpg

1380286167_d0bd.jpg  1380286303_a128.jpg 

1380286277_89be.jpg The middle flag here for some reason has both the Russian tricolor and the Jerusalem flag. Another cut:

2015-11-30847467685949589966-19.jpg

 

0_1e48c5_d1702240_M.jpg 0_1e48c2_d53e139a_M.jpg 0_1e48c3_35e2fdc4_M.jpg 0_1e48c1_68f7f418_M.jpg 0_1e48c0_89e9a3da_M.jpg 0_1e48bc_fe832b6c_L.jpg 0_1e6b9a_a8a2cb75_M.jpg

0_1eb2ad_edcd2abf_XL.jpg

0_1e48b5_a2962a45_XXL.jpg

0_1e48ae_16835294_XL.jpg

0_1e48b0_6f5144ac_XL.jpg

0_1e48c6_e19dd62a_orig

0_1e48b7_286c4365_XL.jpg

0_1e48db_15625a5e_XL.jpg

0_1e7204_a847cbf1_XXXL.jpg

ef89a73b51beebdb44cb100db57b143ec3d19731

2015-11-30847467685949589966-4.jpg

2015-11-30847467685949589966-13.jpg0_1e71fe_da9a7355_L.jpg

047c40ee189b0df78cb1677cbf674642c3d19731

bf72481fdf4e905ce240440563edc245c3d19731

047c40ee189b0df78cb1677cbf674642c3d19731

1783_flags_moscovian.jpg

0_1e4aa3_93a658e1_XXXL.jpg

0_1e48cf_415c4250_XXXL.jpg0_1e48d5_d30d62e3_XL.jpg

orlov.gif album18691.jpg This is from a book: https://dlib.rsl.ru/viewer/01008918049

1783_World_flags.jpg

e4a10509f27187a72ee3d1a0a5d9c4a8c3d19731

3571f5557b63d8f69723075b07a3f589b9998531

I did now find several sources showing the Russian Galley flag from the DLC, which I thought I hadn't seen before, but must have just overlooked or forgotten:

2015-11-30847467685949589966-14.jpg

Here are some more versions of the Tartar flag, including another Tartar flag with an owl:

Tartaria_flags_all.jpg Tartaria_gerb_Moscow.jpg

Tartaria_flags2.gif Tartaria_flags1.jpg

2015-11-30847467685949589966-8.jpg

1-0.2015-11-30847467685949589966.jpg 2015-11-30847467685949589966-30.jpg

 

2015-11-30847467685949589966-7.jpg2015-11-30847467685949589966-9.jpg2015-11-30847467685949589966-10.jpg2015-11-30847467685949589966-12.jpg

109357274_large_2843586_Untitled_Panoram

76650969_large_2843586_28.jpg 

0_1e6b00_1cec530c_XXL.jpg0_1e48ce_4cd17baf_XXL.jpg75343474_large_2843586_100_7.jpg

0_1e48a3_c682c53a_XXXL.jpg

0_1e71ff_6e66ee43_XXXL.jpg

Some other interesting flags, like the flag for Isle of Man

1229086427_knfl1.jpg

 

SWEDISH FLAGS:

This plaque of flags from 1805 in Swedish I found particularly interesting. Sweden has a rather poor selection of flags in the DLC, I guess because they were historically unimaginative with their flag, but here are a couple of variations of the flag that I hadn't seen before:

4f2eecec7ffc.jpg

I think it might be worth including for Sweden the flags of Riga and Reval (Tallinn) as seen on this plaque, as both cities have been under Swedish rule until about 1710, the beginning of this game's timeframe. Also the Strahlsund flag, as Pomerania was Swedish for a while until about 1807.

There's also some of the variations of the Swedish flag on the top left side that aren't in the DLC and could be added in the future.

I also have been thinking for a while that this Swedish flag should be added to the DLC, even though it might be too early for the game timeframe by just a few decades:

Swedish_historical_flags_at_Maritime_MusSwedish_1620_soldier_banner.jpg

There's also 2 interesting Danish flags on the above plaque.

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