Emergency Repairs, Fires, and demasting!

[Slim McSauce]

So here's a few things I want to address with combat that I think should be changed. Here's a few things

• Emergency repair or Urgent repair repairing top sections of mast

This seems appropriate, a top mast is not much to lose, it shouldn't be much to repair. Alternatively emergency repair also does 15% to internal structure and 15% to sails. This serves the function of emergency repairs being for extreme emergencies, like keeping you afloat and moving. An added bonus is putting out fires quickly which I will discuss shortly.

• Sails and Fire

Fires are ineffectual, survival on, nothing, survival off, big boom. It's pretty black and white. What I recommend here is a higher chance for fire's to spread and affect something like sails . This would be a counter to fast ships or ships with running full sails, battle sails would neutralize this so it's a good idea to manage your sails in action.

• Basic Repair Situation

Repairs should be heavier, and be limited to 3 per battle. This way you don't have to hug your opponent all the time and battles can take place at range again without kiting being such an issue.
which brings me to my final point about demasting

Bottom and lower section mast should be difficult to break, as they are now. Topmasts and top royal gallents should be easier to demast, I'm talking 5-7 balls to snap at 300 meters for even sized ships. Right now people hardly go for topmasts because 1. they're harder to hit being smaller, and 2. combat takes place so close and topmast being so thick you might as well be chaining/going for lower masts.

So I suggest doing these things in order to improve combat and open up more tactical depth. I'm not the only one who is tired of repairs dominating the outcome of battles, forcing you to play close the entire time or risk losing to a runner. There's no incentive to keep your enemy at range anymore, the damage you do manage to deal from 300 or so meters is always easily repaired unless your fighting a much smaller ship. Not only that but fires being unimportant, as well as demasting/chains being dominant in most battles, as well as boarding. What I'm saying is a return to ball and powder combat is better than forcing brutish hack and slash with high emphasis on mods and DPS.

[z4ys]

If repairs wouldn't repair structure (only emergency repair) and some other changes that ain't that kind of biased it might be a good suggestion.

[Tomasso il Fortunato]

It will be funny see sails burning.

[Sir Loorkon]

The combat system is realy fine as it is. Esp. the tactical depth is very high at the moment and the combat mechanic is one of the best I have ever seen in a computergame. What needs to change is the attitude of players running away from combats. 

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, z4ys said:

If repairs wouldn't repair structure (only emergency repair) and some other changes that ain't that kind of biased it might be a good suggestion.

Thank you for that, I believe it should be possible to hull tank more as appose to armor tanking. I think armor should strip away over time by way of 3 repair per battle and structure be the short of fall back that you can still fight from, but have to be very careful not to get sunk. This makes more for tactical depth in my opinion and is much more enjoyable over time, there will be more of a deciding factor determined by how you used those 3 repairs rather than letting you dish it out close range every battle, allowing for more playstyles.

 

Just now, Captan Thomas Fremantle said:

It will be funny see sails burning.

Haha, setting enemy sails on fire will very enjoyable for sure, maybe not as satisfying as blowing them up, but I'm sure you could pull some epic maneuvers pairing a fire with sail repair. IF that is possible  

[Guest]

if would also debate that when you do hull repair you shouldnt regain your full hull thickness as it is wooden blocks with canvas around them punched into holes. Maybe 5% reduced hull thickness for each hull repair, this might be tweaked so its % based on each side (bow, stern, portside, starboard) so you can have good thickness with full hp on one side but 90% thickness on the other side with ok hp after a repair

Edited November 28, 2018 by Guest

[Thonys]

5 hours ago, Captan Thomas Fremantle said:

It will be funny see sails burning.

well it would be nice to see the flagpole brakes first  i am still practicing to hit that one but i never succeed

 

[Archaos]

5 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

What I recommend here is a higher chance for fire's to spread and affect something like sails .

I thought they did have possibility of sail damage with fire or at least the used to have it. I have definitely previously see my sails take damage sometimes when on fire, though I must admit I have not noticed it recently. You did not actually see the sails burning but you did take quite rapid damage to the sails.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Archaos said:

I thought they did have possibility of sail damage with fire or at least the used to have it. I have definitely previously see my sails take damage sometimes when on fire, though I must admit I have not noticed it recently. You did not actually see the sails burning but you did take quite rapid damage to the sails.

if the fire burns long enough the sails starts to catch fire and you get rigging shock, but i think it takes longer time than it should

[Havelock]

(sry @rediii)

 

10 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Bottom and lower section mast should be difficult to break, as they are now.

Are we playing the same game???

 

13 mast hits, all 3 masts gone. Took out 2 masts while passing  his stern, about 10 shots needed (medium 24pders with double shot), then finished the front mast with 32pd carros on the weather deck. Absolutely no skill involved, just pointing my guns at an almost not moving target. No brilliant maneuvre required, masts are vulnerable from every angle.

Going for masts doesnt seem to be very fashionable these times, but its OP as hell.

[Capn Rocko]

I think making repairs heavier will in fact lessen the number of repairs in each battle because players will carry less repairs overall. Admin mentioned doing this a few months ago, so I would expect this to happen eventually. Otherwise, I don't see a need to change anything (except maybe boarding mods). Fights are dynamic and tactics are versatile. Things are more balanced now than they ever have in the past. I really think the devs have done a good job with the battle system overall. I think at this point, small tweaks need to be made not introducing new systems/mechanics. 

2 minutes ago, Havelock said:

13 mast hits, all 3 masts gone. Took out 2 masts while passing  his stern, about 10 shots needed (medium 24pders with double shot), then finished the front mast with 32pd carros on the weather deck. Absolutely no skill involved, just pointing my guns at an almost not moving target. No brilliant maneuvre required, masts are vulnerable from every angle.

Going for masts doesnt seem to be very fashionable these times, but its OP as hell.

He could have been in a lighter build, thus, making his masts weaker. Also many still do not use mast buffs. I often use mast mods (such as french rig) and rarely loose an entire mast. Maybe rediii can provide his build information so we can better understand. 

[Slim McSauce]

2 hours ago, Capn Rocko said:

I think making repairs heavier will in fact lessen the number of repairs in each battle because players will carry less repairs overall. Admin mentioned doing this a few months ago, so I would expect this to happen eventually. Otherwise, I don't see a need to change anything (except maybe boarding mods). Fights are dynamic and tactics are versatile. Things are more balanced now than they ever have in the past. I really think the devs have done a good job with the battle system overall. I think at this point, small tweaks need to be made not introducing new systems/mechanics. 

While I agree that repairs being heavier would be good, it doesn't solve the use of 5+ repairs per battle which doesn't add to the dynamic of fights, but forces playing up close across all ships which has limited battles to brawls only. We're missing a whole section of combat because unless you're doing critical damage every broadside, your enemy out repairs you and/or is able to escape.

Looking at @Havelock screenshot kind of confirms what I said in the original post. Fights are forced to take place so close, there's no reason to go for top masts because you can just as easily pen lower masts at that range, ending up in results shown. The proper tactic here would be to stay at 300 or so meters and pelt the enemy with ball until he's down to his last repair, then risk a dive, but with unlimited repairs that tactic is nullified, you are unable to do enough damage from range to out dps a repair every 10 minutes

Edited November 28, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[William Death]

Wood type doesn't affect mast HP, IIRC. Its tied to the base HP of the ship. Heavy wood types do add a small amount of thickness, but there is no woodtype that gives negatives to masts. And thats the way it should be--Mast HP and thickness should not depend on wood type of the hull.

Tommy Shelby had a nice spreadsheet tool that compared mast HP values with cannon damage output, calculating the number of shots you needed to take the mast down.

Rule of thumb is about 7-12 mast hits with same caliber cannon as the ship's largest battery for 6th-4th rates; 10-20 hits for 3rd-1st rates. Thats for the lower mast, and assumes no mast HP mods. That also assumes you're within range to pen the mast (rule of thumb is ~250-300m when using cannons the same size as the largest battery of the target ship).

Topmasts and topgallantmasts take fewer hits (less HP) and they have less thickness too. Honestly, I thought it was about 5-10 hits with the right size cannon for the topmasts and topgallantmasts of most frigates...but its been a while since I've gone for upper masts, since they're too easy to repair and as a result aren't worth my time. Better to take the lower mast that'll really cripple the enemy, even if it takes me 2-3x as long to do it.

People do still go for topmasts and topgallants, but its less common because the lower mast is easier to hit, and if you have the pen...go for it. However, if you need to take a mast down and you don't have the pen for it (he's got mast thickness mods or you are in a ship with small cannons), you can aim for the upper masts and get one of those.

 

This was a fight I had about a month ago or so. Long 24s and 32 carronades on my ship. I was in a lightly built Diana, and after trading some ranged shots, I realized my enemy was in a sturdier ship with all long cannons. Also, I noticed he was very agile (after capturing it, I realized it was a speed/turning spec purple ship with a Clock and Elite British Refit and Sailing Combat Reports). So...I either had to demast him or run away. So I started firing charged 24s at roughly 300m, lobbing carronades into the rigging to add just a little more sail damage.

Of those 68 mast hits, the majority were 24s, but some was a bit of chain or carros that didn't pen at range. I think I ended up taking mainmast 1x, mizzen 1x, and foremast 2x (I just remember that I had to take one mast down twice).

Anyways, I got pretty damaged doing all this (perks of a light build, and all that). But unlimited hull reps and enough speed kept me in good enough shape to win the fight (perks of a light build, and all that ).

 

I think masts are finally in a somewhat decent spot. Well, as decent as we'll ever get them. Back in the old days (before thickness was a thing), masts simply had very high HP so it took a reasonable amount of large-caliber shots, or a whole bunch of small-caliber shots to take a mast down. I liked that better but too many people complained. Then right after the Unity patch we had a similar system with paper masts and people complained. So we got iron masts, and enough of us demasters complained and we compromised here.

This compromise amounts to: run regular French Rig on all standard brawling ships, Elite French Rig (or Kiritimati) is necessary if you want to duel a player who has any reasonable skill. Most hunting ships don't carry mast mods, or only the regular French Rig, so going for masts in random OW engagements is a viable tactic. But most PB ships and lineships will have invulnerable masts (at least the lower portions).

 

To put this in perspective, back in the old days a good demaster could take 1 mast (sometimes 2 or even 3) off of a first rate in one broadside. Here's Anolytic's video of one of my clanmates (same guy who taught me how to demast) taking his foremast in the opening broadside of their duel. (I really miss the duel room....)

 

 

Re: rest of the @Slim McSauce's suggestions:

Emergency repair is fine as it is, I think. Certainly shouldn't repair masts or sails. However, if it helped with leaks, that might be well received by the players who consistently get leaked out in certain ships (*cough* Pavel/Victory haters *cough*).

Fires do damage sails, but only when you begin approaching fireshock. Would be nice to see fires cause sail damage even if your crew is getting it under control. Forcing a reduction to battle sails (or sacrificing sail HP and remaining at full) would be an interesting added layer to combat.

Repairs in general: limit their use in battle, no need to adjust weight, I think (I posted a long explanation of my views on it in the main repair thread).

[Capn Rocko]

@Slim McSauce I am having a hard time understanding why you think battles are currently forced to play up close. Almost every brawl I'm in takes place at the 300-500 meter range unless someone is trying to board or hug me (which is a mistake on their part with my current setup). Anything more than 500 meters and penetration falls off (at least for mediums and carros). 300-500 meters is a good range imo. 

[Slim McSauce]

25 minutes ago, Capn Rocko said:

@Slim McSauce I am having a hard time understanding why you think battles are currently forced to play up close. Almost every brawl I'm in takes place at the 300-500 meter range unless someone is trying to board or hug me (which is a mistake on their part with my current setup). Anything more than 500 meters and penetration falls off (at least for mediums and carros). 300-500 meters is a good range imo. 

people don't fight at range, you're fighting more than gunnery and tank, you're having to out dps the enemies repair which is already hard enough up close (try a 1v11, it's possible to win that way)

demasting happens up close, people don't go for topmasts they get close and swipe your entire masts because it's easier, and if they mess up they can repair the mistake many times over until they win.

Watch videos of people fighting with 1/3 repair system, it's a much more cautious dance than charging into the enemy with hit and run repairs. People actually use to be afraid to get that close, rightfully so. Now it's the only way to play because your enemy is repairing damage and can easily get away from you unless you're on top of them the whole time, especially with limited chain. You're unable to contain a ship without fully demasting him which only happens up close, same with rakes and reload shocks etc.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Capn Rocko]

Im not arguing whether there is too much repairing (there is and I think heavier repair weight will solve it) just that I don't think that range is a problem in the game. If someone sits at 600+ meters shooting at my masts and/or bouncing shots off my hull, I just laugh at them because they are accomplishing nothing. Its a timid (and borderline griefing) tactic used by players in fir ships that cannot afford to get within 500 meters of their enemy without getting a miracle demast or some sort of a grave mistake by their enemy. They think they are controlling the battle by shooting from a distance but they are really just ensuring they have a direct escape route or stalling for a revenge fleet to arrive. That is not my idea of combat. 

[Slim McSauce]

Well I think the suggestion's here and some other people's suggestions would work better in a 3 repair system. For example when you no longer have to balance around player potential repair ability with a full hold of repairs, you can focus more on the actual tweaking of percentages and values for combat, like penetration, thickness, and finally address the mast issue completely. Did you know there's a huge penetration gap between 18 and 24 pound cannons? Even though the difference from 12<18<24 is the same 18s perform much worse for some reason and it's only between 18's and 24's.

It's a mistake to think all is well with combat, there's always something to improve even if it's small. That's why true competitive games are constantly nerfing/buffing, especial when new content comes out. You don't just get that balance once, you go over it many times until you have it as close as possible to the idea. I would actually say that the economy patch did its job pretty well. Now we see what's really holding the game back and it's not UI, it's not missions, it's lack of PvP because pvp is an absolute shitshow any way you slice it. It's a miracle we draw ANYBODY into pvp, it's such a mess, even the best players only average 5 pvp kills a day, that's pretty pathetic considering I could go into any game but I'm gonna use dayrz as an example and spray down 3 guys in a single firefight.

Really 5 pvp kills a day average? that's trash dude no one wants to spend their days at sea trecking the empty ocean looking for a needle in a haystack. Battle's are too wacky and unpredictable for anybody to risk their expensive ships and valuable time just to get epic zerg ganked across the map. You're out of your damn mind if you think this does anything besides push pvp off into a cold dark place allowing such low quality fights to emerge. @admin has the ability to change this and make it better but he has become content with allowing NA's playerbase to tear itself into shreds.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Sir Loorkon]

7 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

Well I think the suggestion's here and some other people's suggestions would work better in a 3 repair system. For example when you no longer have to balance around player potential repair ability with a full hold of repairs, you can focus more on the actual tweaking of percentages and values for combat, like penetration, thickness, and finally address the mast issue completely. Did you know there's a huge penetration gap between 18 and 24 pound cannons? Even though the difference from 12<18<24 is the same 18s perform much worse for some reason and it's only between 18's and 24's.

It's a mistake to think all is well with combat, there's always something to improve even if it's small. That's why true competitive games are constantly nerfing/buffing, especial when new content comes out. You don't just get that balance once, you go over it many times until you have it as close as possible to the idea. I would actually say that the economy patch did its job pretty well. Now we see what's really holding the game back and it's not UI, it's not missions, it's lack of PvP because pvp is an absolute shitshow any way you slice it. It's a miracle we draw ANYBODY into pvp, it's such a mess, even the best players only average 5 pvp kills a day, that's pretty pathetic considering I could go into any game but I'm gonna use dayrz as an example and spray down 3 guys in a single firefight.

Really 5 pvp kills a day average? that's trash dude no one wants to spend their days at sea trecking the empty ocean looking for a needle in a haystack. Battle's are too wacky and unpredictable for anybody to risk their expensive ships and valuable time just to get epic zerg ganked across the map. You're out of your damn mind if you think this does anything besides push pvp off into a cold dark place allowing such low quality fights to emerge. @admin has the ability to change this and make it better but he has become content with allowing NA's playerbase to tear itself into shreds.

Of course there is always something to improve but why should we completely change a very good and working system? Of course you can not handle the actual system if you use „a full hold of repairs“ and maybe a fir/fir ship. How do you manage to get a fight with this construcion? You must be very slow although you use fir/fir. So you make yourself easy prey. And why do you think everybody uses expensive ships? Most people play even worse in „expensive ships“ because the fear of loosing it makes them be far less agressive. We need more players with the will to fight and learn and not to run. We do not need a new combat system.

[Slim McSauce]

9 minutes ago, Sir Loorkon said:

Of course there is always something to improve but why should we completely change a very good and working system? Of course you can not handle the actual system if you use „a full hold of repairs“ and maybe a fir/fir ship. How do you manage to get a fight with this construcion? You must be very slow although you use fir/fir. So you make yourself easy prey. And why do you think everybody uses expensive ships? Most people play even worse in „expensive ships“ because the fear of loosing it makes them be far less agressive. We need more players with the will to fight and learn and not to run. We do not need a new combat system.

This isn't completely changing anything, it's a long overdue mechanic that was meant to come in at the time of limiting chain to 2 rounds a gun. Remember those topics and how we agreed that would be the best path, eventually limiting grape as well?

You and @Capn Rocko think you can change people's attitudes through game by telling them to not do what you don't want them to do. What a waste of time when you are the creator of said game, it's in your power to make what you want happen, happen most of the time if you just put a limit on certain things that way people aren't inclined to fall into the extremes. Obviously if people are conflicted then it's the developers job to adjust the game environment to a better suit. 

If you sit King of Crowns on his high chair and tell him and his clan to stop zerging new players around their capital they aren't going to stop just because you SAY so, you have to do something and stop relying on players not to destroy the game they play. NEWSFLASH, THE #1 RULE OF DEVELOPMENT IS NOT TO LET THE PLAYERS OPTIMIZE THE FUN OUT OF A GAME. Even if it means no zerg ganking players fresh off the lot, or running away when they have a gold 15 knt Trinc that they don't want to lose.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, rediii said:

 

I realy think the combat mechanics shouldnt be changed anymore except balancing stuff and maybe repair limit to like 3 each to not make it too crazy in battles.

 

until this happens we can say nothing for sure except this SHOULD happen, if not soon.

[Hethwill]

A lot things can happen in a battle. The rigging can go up in flames ( maybe the visuals are not entirely perfect though ) as it depends on the fire position - you can see the rigging be damaged ( by value ) and the higher the flames the worst it becomes.

Another nice thing we caught in the last week, thanks to @Vernon Merrill, was the explosions of different magazines - ship got fire, magazine exploded, it survives with massive damage and crew still but the fire continued and ignited a second magazine generating a second explosion which finally ended the struggle.