Female Characters

[Elcid Barrett]

Just like i said earlier in this topic. You want to play female, You have to be a pirate or trader. And everyone will be happy. :F

I doubt it will make real life women who want to play as naval captains happy.

 

Women playing these kinds of games is a fact. Most of them will not be pleased with having gender choices dictated to them and it would cost sales, something small companies are seldom willing to do. But historical and financial considerations aside, I have been a part of many gaming groups that include women (guilds, clans etc) and I find that playing with and talking to them on voice chat is usually much better than some squeaky voiced kid who complains about everything that doesn't match a book he just read.

[Galileus]

Just like i said earlier in this topic. You want to play female, You have to be a pirate or trader. And everyone will be happy. :F

 

Try telling it to your GF / wife. "A business representative? Just stick to sidewalk trade or petty criminal. And dishes. That will make everyone happy!".

 

Please post pictures of slapped face ^w^

[nornica]

xD

[sab9999]

Just remember that it is not possible to dedicate too much processing power to boob physics.

[Juliette LaCroix]

Id like to get back to one of mister Danforths statements here and expand on it as followed: As long as there are no limitations on what ship pirates and other non sanctioned navy occupation there might be, can sail, people arguing about historical accuracy because of the idea of female player characters are just unhappy their presumed bastion of patriarchy (historical accuracry because history tends to be an asshole when it comes to equality of all kinds) is gone. And I'm not all in for diehard feminism here; But sure thing there will be characters named "fart nuggets", "captain cool", "yolo swaggins" and "your mother". Ill have to look at their names all the time. Nobody asks whether we should limit peoples ability to name themselfs "power sniper" "fast fragg0r" or "facemeltor".

On a side note: I really dont care if pirates can go in SoLs. I dont like it historical accuracy wise. But its a huge question of balancing, which is an issue of a game being played, as much as is the question of gender equality on character creation.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Actually, I've argued against having such names Madam, but then, I've argued a lot of points since I've arrived in these forums.

 

That said, one pet peeve of mine is this insistence on historical accuracy when it negatively affects good game play.  Other than people "not liking what they see", there is no reason not to allow women Captains.  As with some posters above, I'd far prefer they be dressed in a femininely styled naval uniform (that is to say I don't want to see half naked women commanding ships, I'd like them to be decently dressed, not too dis-similarly to your avatar), but I think there's no real good reason to not allow them.

 

Fine, perhaps that argument brings me by the lee with regards to ship and player names (HMS PWNZRLOLOL and my favorite of yours, Captain "fart nuggets"), but if having modern leet names for people and ships also means we allow female ship Captains in all professions, I'd gladly be willing to make that exception.  The female gaming community is quite important in my opinion, and having female avatars that are tasteful and respectful is an important part of any modern game.

[Destraex]

I can ignore name. That's not the issue. The issue is a 3d representation in game on the quarterdeck. Apart from that fact its all guesswork as to what they looked like. Why is there even a need. Do females really want the special treatment? There is nothing stopping them from playing or naming their captain a female name. Its not like they are banned.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

I can ignore name. That's not the issue. The issue is a 3d representation in game on the quarterdeck. Apart from that fact its all guesswork as to what they looked like. Why is there even a need. Do females really want the special treatment? There is nothing stopping them from playing or naming their captain a female name. Its not like they are banned.

 

Perhaps we're all arguing from a different standpoint.

 

From an end-game perspective, here are my thoughts:

1. Characters should be able to have female names.
2. Avatar "portraits" (a la Eve Online prior to ambulation) should have female options.
3. 3d avatars that are in game should have an option for female features.  Bear in mind, this really doesn't require all that much extra effort - you're adding two chest lumps to an otherwise (optionally) less muscular male human model.

From a uniform standpoint, yes, it's guesswork.  But it's not that hard - a first pass could just use the male uniforms.  They were pretty spiffy and would like fine on a woman.

 

Special treatment?  Having something that a female gamer (or a male gamer that wanted to play a female role - there's more of those than you might think) can subconsciously relate to shape-wise is important.

[Galileus]

Fine, perhaps that argument brings me by the lee with regards to ship and player names (HMS PWNZRLOLOL and my favorite of yours, Captain "fart nuggets"), but if having modern leet names for people and ships also means we allow female ship Captains in all professions, I'd gladly be willing to make that exception.  The female gaming community is quite important in my opinion, and having female avatars that are tasteful and respectful is an important part of any modern game.

 

I would argue here, but I would argue semantics It's a very important part of any game that let's the player become an avatar - because, well, you're supposed to feel an attachment to an avatar. It's supposed to be in one or another way your virtual "you". From this standpoint, unless REALLY solidly argumented by setting or such, banning female avatars is just... holy frell, so wrong.

 

If you're supposed to play a proxy, it's a different beast. Jump into any modern military shooter with 10 snipers with same skin running around and this is a different beast entirely. It's a proxy. A piece on a board - and while surely such argument was rised at some point in time in space, I really don't think of chess any less because of lack of female pawns and towers.

 

Needless to say, MMO means avatars. And that means imagine how horrible world would be with all RPGs banning female avatars "cuz it's based on kinda medieval times!'

(then again, imagined Skyrim in a world like that, and I experienced bliss for a moment!)

[PrezesOi]

It is sad that the common sense that was seen in the original game announcements, in the future will be probably beaten by "popular demand"/"political correctness".

For example - the complete omission of avatars, regardless of gender and focus on real game. There are hundreds of games where you can dress up your characters. NA was supposed to focus on sailing ships.

 

http://sims.wikia.com/wiki/The_Sims_Medieval:_Pirates_and_Nobles

[Galileus]

So it wasn't supposed to be an mmo at first? Didn't knew that.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

It is sad that the common sense that was seen in the original game announcements, in the future will be probably beaten by "popular demand"/"political correctness".

For example - the complete omission of avatars, regardless of gender and focus on real game. There are hundreds of games where you can dress up your characters. NA was supposed to focus on sailing ships.

 

http://sims.wikia.com/wiki/The_Sims_Medieval:_Pirates_and_Nobles

 

If they don't have avatars or pictures at all, that's fine.  I'm totally good with that.  I only argue for inclusion from the standpoint of if they add such things.  That's partly why I think we're all arguing from totally different standpoints here.  I don't think we all have the same overall vision.

[Max Thundercroc]

Haven't read the whole discussion but I'm sure there is a women were not allowed on ships by someone. But in fact there where quite a few women pirates and some of them were way more badass than thier male counterparts. I definetly think they should be in the game, maybe even NPC historical pirate females such as:

 

My favorites:

Ching Shih 1775-1844 1801-1810 China She was a Chinese prostitute who married a pirate and rose to prominence after his death. Regarded as one of the most powerful pirates in human history she commanded her husband's fleet after his death. While the fleet she inherited was already large she further increased the number of ships and crew. At its height her fleet was composed of more than 1,500 ships and 80,000 sailors. She controlled much of the waters of the South China Sea. After years of piracy where British, Chinese and Portuguese navies could not defeat her China offered her peace in 1810 and she was able to retire and married the second in command.

 

Mary Read, alias Mark Read c.1690-1721 1718-1720 English Caribbean pirate. As a man Mary went to sea and later joined the British army, fighting in the War Of The Spanish Succession. Mary married and settled down as a woman but returned to male dress following the death of her husband, later boarding a ship bound for the West Indies. Captured by "Calico" Jack Rackham, Mary joined his crew. In 1721, she died in prison.

 and of course for you frenchies ;p

 

Jeanne de Clisson

 

Born Jeanne-Louise de Belleville in 1300, Jeanne was the descendent of a British family and lived in Brittany. In 1330, Jeanne married Olivier III de Clisson. A wealthy nobleman, Olivier was obliged to defend Brittany from English claimants. After failing to defend Vannes, he defected to the English. Captured in 1343, Olivier was taken to Paris and executed under orders from King Philip VI. Jeanne, overcome with anger, swore vengeance on the king. She sold her lands and her body to rich noblemen and bought three warships. The ships were painted black and their sails dyed red, and the “Black Fleet” took to the seas and hunted down ships belonging to King Philip VI. Clisson butchered the crew of the ships she captured, leaving only a few sailors alive to tell the King that the Lioness of Brittany had struck again. Even after Philip’s death in 1350, she continued to lay waste to French ships, until 1356 when she retired to England—the only place where people liked the French just about as much as she did.

 

 

Pirate booty as its finest!

[PrezesOi]

So it wasn't supposed to be an mmo at first? Didn't knew that.

 

I did not say that. That's MMO. Without avatars.

 

To clarify - i'm fine if that's all about player portrait. For example-during trade. For me it can be even Klingon, if this is to increase sales and ultimately - development of the game. But  - I do not want to see such far detachment from historical facts, like female officers in sexy clothes, on board of Navy ships.

[Robert Danforth]

If they don't have avatars or pictures at all, that's fine.  I'm totally good with that.  I only argue for inclusion from the standpoint of if they add such things.  That's partly why I think we're all arguing from totally different standpoints here.  I don't think we all have the same overall vision.

 

Exactly this.

[Juliette LaCroix]

If they don't have avatars or pictures at all, that's fine.  I'm totally good with that.  I only argue for inclusion from the standpoint of if they add such things.  That's partly why I think we're all arguing from totally different standpoints here.  I don't think we all have the same overall vision.

 

I won't have any problem with no pictures or avatars at all too. But after all that was a condition stated in the initial post. Otherwise that pretty much sums up my opinion too.

[greybuscat]

There could have plausibly been more SoLs in the water.However, it would have been impossible for women to be captains due to the culture that has developed over centuries or millennia.

 

Now that's just silly. A patriarchal society wasn't necessary for the age of sail to happen. We're only a few hundred years removed now. Natural resources, shipbuilding and serving capacity, and manpower were hard limits on the number of ships available in a country, which were each limited by the technology of the time. Gender based discrimination was not even remotely important to the aspect of history that this game is about, unless they decide to make some portion of this game about those misogynistic things. And you can't explore that territory without female characters.

 

Personally, I hope they keep it light, tasteful, and slightly anachronistic (if captains on deck aren't left 100% generic), and anyone lame enough to be bothered by a female in a tailcoat just leaves, allowing everyone else to enjoy the less hostile, less serious environment. It is still a game, and games are usually supposed to be kind of fun. Last time I checked, this was supposed to be an online open world sandbox. And in an online open world, gameplay options and community size are what matter most, even at the occasional expense of authenticity.

 

And really, I can't stress that enough. It's a freaking game. Authenticity is great, when it actually affects the ship I'm sailing.

[Prater]

^^
The game is also historical fiction. 

[Destraex]

Now that's just silly. A patriarchal society wasn't necessary for the age of sail to happen. We're only a few hundred years removed now. Natural resources, shipbuilding and serving capacity, and manpower were hard limits on the number of ships available in a country, which were each limited by the technology of the time. Gender based discrimination was not even remotely important to the aspect of history that this game is about, unless they decide to make some portion of this game about those misogynistic things. And you can't explore that territory without female characters.

 

Personally, I hope they keep it light, tasteful, and slightly anachronistic (if captains on deck aren't left 100% generic), and anyone lame enough to be bothered by a female in a tailcoat just leaves, allowing everyone else to enjoy the less hostile, less serious environment. It is still a game, and games are usually supposed to be kind of fun. Last time I checked, this was supposed to be an online open world sandbox. And in an online open world, gameplay options and community size are what matter most, even at the occasional expense of authenticity.

 

And really, I can't stress that enough. It's a freaking game. Authenticity is great, when it actually affects the ship I'm sailing.

 

I am really hoping their are no captain avatars. That would be the easiest thing for everybody concerned.

I also think that the movie master and commander should be made with a new female captain aubrey. History just has nothing to do with movies either.

Or better still they could have the movie so you can choose which commander sex you wanted. Don't worry it won't affect production time and females will love it...... not that 99% of them would care or even want to watch the movie.

Does anybody here live in a democratic country.... if a poll of the playerbase ratio was taken I bet that 99% of players or more would be male. The argument though would be that by excluding female avatars you are missing out on 50% of customers. I really really doubt that. That is a bunch of PC BS.

 

Market demand is market demand and it takes no genius to know that having to produce everything twice in 3D costs time and processing power for the players running the game as well.. 

 

Now like I said I don't particularly care, but I do like to recreate history. As far as I can tell there were only 3 or maybe 4 females in history that could be modelled for this periods female avatars and most of those were short lived or just crew members for the most part. If those are historical put them in.

Then make sure you put the 20,000 plus male captains their would have been plus all the crew that were known to be male as avatars. Just for balance.

 

How many of you lived when their were actually male and female roles in the world still? Do you remember what it was like. The 18c was probably the height of that kind of thinking. I know it's a game but some people above are talking like it's history and was obviously common and could have happened frequently.

 

I don't see this any differently than not having females in ww2 based games unless they are in the resistance or part of russian desperation policy. It was simply banned in other armies. There is simply no question there and I believe you will find their is documentation that it was banned in 18c navies as well. Thus the few female paid crew members having to hide.... i.e. boys in a game like this not gloriously outfitted females.

 

It is however inevitable given todays softer times. And I accept it. It will happen and I don't care. I just don't want to see 100 guys sporting female avatars because anime or because of some sort of twisted geek fantasy. It will be abused if it is allowed as simple as that. So make them look historical like boys. Heck have you seen all the pink ponies around here... living proof I have no idea what that is all about... but I do not want to see pink ponie captains either lol

 

P.S. Please don't pull the misogynistic card. I don't think anybody hates women here or is trying to stop them playing. But it is an easy card to play thats for sure. A knee jerk response to deny any healthy discussion.

[Mitchverr]

Theres a difference between a movie, which you watch and accept that given the age it will be a mainly male crew and captain (however entirely possible for a small portion to be female) and a computer game where you act as a captain with an avatar however.

 

To be honest i really dont see why people would be upset other people get the choice to pick myself, kinda reminds me of those who get upset due to gay couples in their dragon age game, lol.

 

Women do make up a pretty significant chunk of the gamer population, and exlcuding them if they do make proper avatar usage will likely risk sales however, to ignore that is kinda odd, the game is currently niche role, though to be honest 1% doesnt make me think that the female community should be ignored either.

 

As for the odd "put in the 20,000 male captains" by default, there will be a majority of male captains anyway, no?

 

As for the WW2 notion, you would however get a choice as a woman to play in a russian army in many games, which means you still had the option, not to mention ofcourse you are not so much playing a MMO avatar, you are playing a 1 of 4 usually carbon copy soldier with the exact same everything including face as everyone else more often then not.

 

Soooo, because of bronies we shouldnt have female avatars? I dont get it, kinda false argumentation no? XD Kinda like saying we shouldnt get 2nd rates up because to many will play them in open waters, lol. I also dont see why "males" cant play females, never gotten why some guys dislike it, lol. (i know i know, some avatars on the forum are women, le gaspeh!)

 

Also yeah, people use the word misogynist to much, however to be fair, the reactions some have to women (in my view) was pretty close to that thinly veiled in "no gurlz allowed is history". Personally I dont care about it to much, but if there are avatars, then we should have the option, have the ability to turn them off if you dont like the idea of female avatars too! Problem solved? XD

[Destraex]

You just agreed with most of my points. So cool.

I did say it was inevitable.....

[KillBox]

*Sigh*

 

I loathe to weigh in on this, so I will try to stay neutral as somebody who really doesn't care all that much about it:

 

Hopefully "Avatars" go so far is a mugshot with a "oil-painting" filter and a nice hat tacked on - initially at least.  However, being an MMO and having towns a villages means that, inevitably, there will be players who would like to walk there, with an avatar of some sort.  It's a massive development block and will only happen long after initial release, but it is inevitable.  RP isn't dying soon, and the wonderful allure of cosmetic goodies for real money to play doll with an avatar is a revenue stream that the devs simply cannot overlook.  Also, it will tie in very much directly into the planned "Exploration" part of the game - in fact, it's sort of a requirement, so I will bet my last doubloon/real/guilder/franc that Avatars are inevitable.

 

This is a hot-button topic, and remains so because, of course, those in the discussion generally represent the other side as wanting the extreme.  Coupled with living in a day and age where we live with social sensitivities that are taken to very edges of extreme, internet assaults on one's personal character, accusations of misogyny and misandry, revisionists, anti-revisionists and opinions twisted and taken out of context, it only gets worse.

 

The fact is, this game is representative of history, but it isn't a media form that is given to the strictures of history.  I'm sure France will win battles far more often than is historically correct... should French players give up half way through the battle because it's "correct"?  No, not in the least.  On the same note, French players have no doctrinal orders to aim at sails exclusively, while the British have none that force them to fire on the down-roll.  These are concessions made in the name of good gameplay.  Surely more concessions will be made down the line as features get added, and thus we will inevitably get to avatars.  To welcome and support as many preferences as possible, I assure you, concessions will be made, and with the social climate being what it is, these concessions will be made thanks to outside pressures.

 

Or the Devs could think of something extremely clever and sidestep this whole mess.  We can only hope.

 

However, while we're discussing these things, we should never forget that we're a community, a good community, drawn here by a brilliant idea, a good vision and loads of hard work from a half-dozen guys in Kiev who really want to do right by us.  Lets not devolve this into The Holy Order of SJWs vs The Stinky Chons of the Internet shit-slinging, please?

[Max Thundercroc]

The inclusion of females (which I support if there are avatars in anyway) could bring some interesting "balance" mechanics to the game. We already know there will be skills/perks/whatever you want to call them based on nationality or alignment. I see this as something like a British captain with a British crew would have better trained gunners (thinking Napoleonic times) vs a French crew that might have something like better morale for boarding. So in the aspect of men vs woman, men might be given better navigation or handling ability (since historically they would of been aboard ships learning to sail since about the age of 9) vs woman who might have better income potential or stewarding skills i.e. supplies last longer/increased moral because hot chow always raises morale (since historically woman would accompany their captain husbands and the stewardess was the captains wife or first mates wife (on maritime vessels more often)).

 

Now I am not advocating these skills just what I see as a good possibility. I would also not care if there was no differences between them.

[Anvilfolk]

The inclusion of females (which I support if there are avatars in anyway) could bring some interesting "balance" mechanics to the game. We already know there will be skills/perks/whatever you want to call them based on nationality or alignment. I see this as something like a British captain with a British crew would have better trained gunners (thinking Napoleonic times) vs a French crew that might have something like better morale for boarding. So in the aspect of men vs woman, men might be given better navigation or handling ability (since historically they would of been aboard ships learning to sail since about the age of 9) vs woman who might have better income potential or stewarding skills i.e. supplies last longer/increased moral because hot chow always raises morale (since historically woman would accompany their captain husbands and the stewardess was the captains wife or first mates wife (on maritime vessels more often)).

 

Now I am not advocating these skills just what I see as a good possibility. I would also not care if there was no differences between them.

 

I know the intention is good, but I have to strongly disagree with this suggestion.

 

It stereotypes women. And men, for that matter. Why can't there be a male captain who loves cooking? Why can't there be an absolutely brilliant female captain? If we give bonuses based on sex, we're effectively setting gameplay limitations based on gender. Even if it's not meant this way, what this type of feature usually says is that women aren't as smart as men (can't navigate as well), and that men aren't as compassionate as women (can't love or care as much as a woman).

 

Gender should have no effect whatsoever besides appearance. And the appearance should be proper, i.e. don't exaggerate the figure of the female body to please the male audience.

[Galileus]

I know the intention is good, but I have to strongly disagree with this suggestion.

 

It stereotypes women. And men, for that matter. Why can't there be a male captain who loves cooking? Why can't there be an absolutely brilliant female captain? If we give bonuses based on sex, we're effectively setting gameplay limitations based on gender. Even if it's not meant this way, what this type of feature usually says is that women aren't as smart as men (can't navigate as well), and that men aren't as compassionate as women (can't love or care as much as a woman).

 

Gender should have no effect whatsoever besides appearance. And the appearance should be proper, i.e. don't exaggerate the figure of the female body to please the male audience.

 

<insert a long, typical for me rant about the topic at hand, agreeing to everything and then some>

 

(sorry, 14h shift, I'm dead inside... cut me a slack )