Ship Crafting RNG, Good or Bad?

[Archaos]

1 hour ago, Draymoor said:

'Nearly everyone' is relative, depends on how many ships it takes to become a master of each class. Also with building higher quality could come a higher cost, so you could build any quality you want as long as you have progressed enough but building a lower quality ship would cost less. The higher costs of higher quality would means everyone attempting to enter the market can still craft for players  that can afford to pay less. You can produce lower quality ships for a larger market. Crafting your own ships currently is not a guarantee of getting anything better than a standard ship anyway, so you could still craft your own. If some had crafted hundreds of each rate of ship, I don't see a problem with them being a master of each type. Producing the top quality ocean or any other ship could cost 3 times more than a standard one, so producing standard ships would still be a viable option. 
Honestly I'm not sure if it would be better than the current system, perhaps not, but it definitely seems a lot more interesting and immersive than randomly hitting the ship quality jackpot. Could just be my strong hate for RNG is general, too many games use way too much RNG. 

But you seem to be missing the original problem with this approach. The problem was that RNG ships led to an imbalance as you could face another ship the same as yours but they have the advantage because they are 5/5 gold while you are only 3/5, but with what you suggest only the rich would remain competitive while the rest would have to make do with substandard ships and what really ends up happening is that everyone is forced to get the 5/5 gold ships.

With RNG even the poorest player has a chance of getting that 5/5 gold ship as long as he can afford to craft it and with RNG the total number of 5/5 gold ships is limited and in order to get more 5/5 gold ships the number of lesser ships increases putting downward pressure on the price and making them more affordable for all. I understand that everyone would love to sail around in a 5/5 ship, but if that happens then 5/5 has no value and we may as well all stick to 3/5 ships. They have to be rare to give them value.

Regarding the Doubloons cost I do tend to agree that they may be too high to allow crafting many ships to get the 5/5 but people did ask for 1st rates to become rare and you have to agree that the cost does make them rare. But are they now too rare?

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

For me unpredictability is a game asset. Few games manage that satisfyingly. It's done nicely in NA in a number of things being random. Like the outcome of ship building. But I think the chances to get a high-end quality ship should increase with skill of the shipwright, so a level 50 crafter has a higher percentage for achieving golden class ships than a level 20 builder and so forth.

And I suggested sometime earlier what shows up here in comments, thus supported by me, that you could "refit" an existing ship by another upgrade slot when you invest your time and resources in it. Or just do another throw of dice for a price which may result in the upgrade slot being added.

--

Imbalance? No. Everyone who crafted long enough can obtain such a ship. A PvP fighter or a PvE player. Or economist. Or someone returning to game after a year of absence, with skills returned to newbie status. Everyone.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Cetric de Cornusiac

[Angus MacDuff]

6 minutes ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

so a level 50 crafter has a higher percentage for achieving golden class ships than a level 20 builder and so forth.

I don't think the chances should increase for lvl 50.  Isn't everyone who wants to craft up there already?

[Archaos]

3 minutes ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

And I suggested sometime earlier what shows up here in comments, thus supported by me, that you could "refit" an existing ship by another upgrade slot when you invest your time and resources in it. Or just do another throw of dice for a price which may result in the upgrade slot being added

I have seen this type of RNG in other games where you could reroll to get additional slots, but the chance of success got harder for each slot and if it failed you risked losing slots and even total destruction of the item. I do not think the anti-RNG brigade would like such a system. For example you start off with a 3/5 and by using some special gathered materials you could reroll it to see if you get to a 4/5 with maybe a 20 percent chance of success and if you fail it remains 3/5, if you succeed you have a 4/5 and if you get more reroll materials you could take a chance to go for a 5/5 but your percentage chance of success is now 5% and upon failure you have a chance of 3 outcomes, 50% it remains 4/5, 30% it becomes 3/5 and 20% you lose the ship altogether (percentages could be adjusted). Now that would be a serious RNG game which I am sure most would hate. 

[Cmdr RideZ]

Everyone knows RNG is a bad fix but the economy does not work without it.

Suggest ways to motivate people to craft ships without RNG?

Everyone has their max craft XP.

Everything is very expensive, none wants to lose ships.

Sailing a trader is boring as hell, everyone do bare minimum to craft their own ship.

 

Ship trade done in Doubloons.

Decrease taxes for player driven economy.

We are directors and AI sails our traders. If our trader gets captured by player we can see the name of the captain. Let us set bounties on their heads. Let us know where the ship was lost so we can protect our trade lines. Let there be Trade Wars!

[Draymoor]

1 hour ago, Archaos said:

But you seem to be missing the original problem with this approach. The problem was that RNG ships led to an imbalance as you could face another ship the same as yours but they have the advantage because they are 5/5 gold while you are only 3/5, but with what you suggest only the rich would remain competitive while the rest would have to make do with substandard ships and what really ends up happening is that everyone is forced to get the 5/5 gold ships.

With RNG even the poorest player has a chance of getting that 5/5 gold ship as long as he can afford to craft it and with RNG the total number of 5/5 gold ships is limited and in order to get more 5/5 gold ships the number of lesser ships increases putting downward pressure on the price and making them more affordable for all. I understand that everyone would love to sail around in a 5/5 ship, but if that happens then 5/5 has no value and we may as well all stick to 3/5 ships. They have to be rare to give them value.

Regarding the Doubloons cost I do tend to agree that they may be too high to allow crafting many ships to get the 5/5 but people did ask for 1st rates to become rare and you have to agree that the cost does make them rare. But are they now too rare?

I don't know that's actually a fact, even now are people sailing all their best ship when they go out hunting or whatever? Most times that's not the case. And you're speaking of a 1v1 in the same ship... which in the game actually happens when? It's not exactly a common situation unless it's a planned duel. With upgrades and books, you still have no idea what the capabilities of a ship are. More than quality of ships, crazy rare upgrades and books are a much bigger issue. I would remove rare books with huge boosts and replace it with a skill tree, available to all. Upgrades at least you lose if you lose the ship. 
I don't see why a new poor player that puts in much less time and effort should get a massive lottery reward. Instead it should be that people that are out there in OW in battles, should be getting more rewards simply for fighting. You could be a new player in a simple ship but if you could get enough from a hard battle to at least get another simple ship after losing you could keep going, there's other means of making money for poor new players than ship crafting. 
It's not really about wanting a 5/5 ship but just not having rewards be given at random. Same principle with doubloons from traders. Random rewards should be small bonuses, the real rewards should be given for accomplishing something, the reward should equal the effort/work/difficulty. 

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

2 hours ago, Archaos said:

I have seen this type of RNG in other games where you could reroll to get additional slots, but the chance of success got harder for each slot and if it failed you risked losing slots and even total destruction of the item. I do not think the anti-RNG brigade would like such a system. For example you start off with a 3/5 and by using some special gathered materials you could reroll it to see if you get to a 4/5 with maybe a 20 percent chance of success and if you fail it remains 3/5, if you succeed you have a 4/5 and if you get more reroll materials you could take a chance to go for a 5/5 but your percentage chance of success is now 5% and upon failure you have a chance of 3 outcomes, 50% it remains 4/5, 30% it becomes 3/5 and 20% you lose the ship altogether (percentages could be adjusted). Now that would be a serious RNG game which I am sure most would hate. 

You are probably surprised now but I like this! Reflects very much the tinkering and related risks. Sometime you improve the object, but you may also mess it up completely. Great!

[Slim McSauce]

5 hours ago, Tiedemann said:

If you don't like RNG because you think it is unfair google: "Normal distribution" and become enlightened.

If you get it your way here then your next attack at RNG will be at the drop for upgrade and skill books, and in the end we are all sailing around in identical ships meta built, and your complaining about that.. I can't see a happy ending here 😕

no one here says it's unfair, we're saying it's lame and we'd rather have real progression not 'lul random' for shipbuilding.

[LIONOFWALES]

On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 10:18 PM, Wilhelm von Seydlitz said:

"and all ships must always be gold and produce for free " 
 

I believe you have missed my point sir.

RNG should not, in my opinion, effect the number of upgrades that a player may fit to a warship... it just makes no sense to me, I enjoyed the RNG this way for a while , but I don't believe it is good for this game. Now RNG for a random perk, ok I suppose, but RNG in upgrade slots just seems a bit silly to me.

Thanks for the feed back and your point of view.

The gambling factor is fun though... I just don't really see the in game value for this mechanic in ship crafting.

[LIONOFWALES]

16 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

Everyone knows RNG is a bad fix but the economy does not work without it.

The economy can work without RNG mate... most players sell their goods for far above value in this game unless they are selling o clan members.

[LIONOFWALES]

17 hours ago, Archaos said:

With RNG even the poorest player has a chance of getting that 5/5 gold ship as long as he can afford to craft it and with RNG the total number of 5/5 gold ships is limited and in order to get more 5/5 gold ships the number of lesser ships increases putting downward pressure on the price and making them more affordable for all. I understand that everyone would love to sail around in a 5/5 ship, but if that happens then 5/5 has no value and we may as well all stick to 3/5 ships. They have to be rare to give them value.

How many of us would like to control the quality of our ship produced?

I have enjoyed the RNG myself, however I fail to see the relevance of RNG in something that would limit my ability to equip crew with their weapons or upgrade my ship somehow through upgrade slots. RNG could be welcome in other areas of the game... but crafting a ship? Are ship wright skills so poor that we have no idea what we shall have upon crafting?

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by LIONOFWALES

[LIONOFWALES]

17 hours ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

For me unpredictability is a game asset. Few games manage that satisfyingly. It's done nicely in NA in a number of things being random

I agree and our combat is far more unpredictable in PVP than anything else in game...

I do understand what you are saying, I enjoy unpredictability as well in a game, but are we sure that the quality of our ships that are such an integral part of conquest and combat should be controlled by chance?

[LIONOFWALES]

On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 5:13 PM, LIONOFWALES said:

, just a basic random buff instead of random upgrade slots.

Remember, upgrade slots, should this be controlled by RNG, Ship qualities can still be different, we have many different wood types in game to tailor our ships.

Maybe a random perk but upgrade slots seems a bit steep yes?

[LIONOFWALES]

16 hours ago, Draymoor said:

I would remove rare books with huge boosts and replace it with a skill tree, available to all. Upgrades at least you lose if you lose the ship. 
I don't see why a new poor player that puts in much less time and effort should get a massive lottery reward. Instead it should be that people that are out there in OW in battles, should be getting more rewards simply for fighting. You could be a new player in a simple ship but if you could get enough from a hard battle to at least get another simple ship after losing you could keep going, there's other means of making money for poor new players than ship crafting. 

I agree, the best way for new players to make Reals in game is through combat or trading resources. And the massive lottery in shipbuilding? Un-needed, fun perhaps, but not very relevant.

[Cmdr RideZ]

6 hours ago, LIONOFWALES said:

The economy can work without RNG mate... most players sell their goods for far above value in this game unless they are selling o clan members.

Can work without RNG but not if the economy is not changed.

[LIONOFWALES]

On ‎11‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 5:09 AM, Cmdr RideZ said:

Can work without RNG but not if the economy is not changed.

People are just used to making a very inflated profit, if one crunches the numbers correctly, then one can find better ways of making reals. But hey, if you want RNG... more power to ya, some of us would like less lottery regarding upgrade slots.

[Stars and Stripes]

I like RNG it gives is poor players a slim chance of a greatship.

I recently got my first gold 5/5 ship ever!!

I also have a purple herc.

😁

[Hethwill]

Honestly I wouldn't mind that all crafted ships to be plain blue 3/5 ( or 2/5 with extra refit choice ) and get over with it

Must say the removal of random may not be a badd idea if we stick to standard quality.

 

[Njord]

3 hours ago, Stars and Stripes said:

I like RNG it gives is poor players a slim chance of a greatship.

I recently got my first gold 5/5 ship ever!!

I also have a purple herc.

I would argue it gives poor players a good chance to find a decent ship very cheap since people spam them to get bonus slots and trims and run out of dock space. 

The richest players will generally have the most great ships still, because they can build more and thus have a higher chance to get the better ones.

[Slim McSauce]

3 hours ago, Sovereign said:

I would argue it gives poor players a good chance to find a decent ship very cheap since people spam them to get bonus slots and trims and run out of dock space. 

The richest players will generally have the most great ships still, because they can build more and thus have a higher chance to get the better ones.

except the economy for ships is still in the toilet otherwise I'd agree that people love the flood of cheap ships to spam.

[Cmdr RideZ]

On 11/23/2018 at 7:49 AM, LIONOFWALES said:

People are just used to making a very inflated profit, if one crunches the numbers correctly, then one can find better ways of making reals. But hey, if you want RNG... more power to ya, some of us would like less lottery regarding upgrade slots.

It was tested already. None crafted ships, stores were empty, nothing to buy. They have to make the economy to work before they can remove RNG.