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rediii

Muskets, the new golden marines?

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2 ships engage, almost same crew. 2 Musket fire and the enemy is on 0 morale.  Should that be?

 

Lets talk about the new musket technologies and if they should be a instawin or not :) 

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One meta replaced by the same meta under a different mask. Some of those musket upgrades have insane bonuses. I think the largest one I saw was 90% higher accuracy and 30% more firepower and that was redoubtable, don't know if there's any stronger ones but holy shit that's massive for a single upgrade.

Edited by Slim McSauce

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it will be reduced..... don't worry ...

in a week they tell ya it was a bit on the high side and not working as intended

lets make a bet.. i say <  2 weeks and its updated (nerfed) i throw in 10 balloons.

Edited by Thonys

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2 hours ago, Thonys said:

it will be reduced..... don't worry ...

in a week they tell ya it was a bit on the high side and not working as intended

lets make a bet.. i say <  2 weeks and its updated (nerfed) i throw in 10 balloons.

I'd bet that if it's not mentioned on forum, it won't. 

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I think its still to strong for its power to cost ratio. You can make a ship a super effective boarder with very little draw back, which was the main draw back before. Its not really unbeatable depending on the boarding mod difference but its pretty damn close.

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40 minutes ago, Aster said:

I think its still to strong for its power to cost ratio. You can make a ship a super effective boarder with very little draw back, which was the main draw back before. Its not really unbeatable depending on the boarding mod difference but its pretty damn close.

I think its unbeatable

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2 minutes ago, Lovec1990 said:

I belive books need some fine tuning currently Marines+muskets are so OP while Book of five rings is underperforming 

the only OP thing is the new musket accuracy upgrades you get from pve, old stuff is fine tbh

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Just now, rediii said:

the only OP thing is the new musket accuracy upgrades you get from pve, old stuff is fine tbh

partialy agree i still belive Book of five Rings needs buff, becouse its very hard or very expensive to get

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I am not sure what the mod load out for both ships is there but I think if two ships of around equal strength get into boarding and one is most of their mods into board fit and one is not it should be pretty close to a GG. Boarding mods are one of the most niche mod groups in the game and should be powerful. The problem with the new musket mods is they added "real" musket accuracy into the equation (not boarding cannons) which when added together is to powerful. So ether the accuracy needs to be cut in half or barricades needs its fire power bonus nerfed.

Also when I said its not always un beatable it depends completely on both sides mod load out so for instance if the musket ship is not running marines just musket books/mods (I don't know why you wouldn't run marines on it but I have seen people do it anyway.) vs a melee build with the new moral mods then I think it would be a match. Anyway as I have said the musket build is to powerful for its cost, boarding power of this power should only be a thing on ships nearly full board spec.

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As a counter point though I would like to throw out there with the new boarding pike mod plus boarding axes you can instant disengage with less cost just 1 perm 1 book and you have effectively full countered any boarding spec.

Edited by Aster
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3 hours ago, rediii said:

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Its 3rd rate against 3rd rate 1770 muskets+marines opponent without marines/muskets, it was like 300 vs 180 muskets

 

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same setup 3rd rate vs indef

Edited by Bodye
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Honestly cant imagine why they decided to add these mods as they currently are. Last i checked, mid/late 18th century model muskets weren't too accurate fired from a listing ship in a cloud of gunsmoke. Give it a few days for more people to get abused, lose ships, and get to the forums. Imho the devs should make some changes asap.

Edited by Potemkin
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I was waiting to see how long to start discussion about musket mods.

Premise: yes. They are too powerful at the moment. I fear that an eventual "nerfbat" could be too strong (like making Acc. from 5 to 0.05 - so as happened in the past, from too powerful to crap).

 

Still, aside defender's pretty stupid choises, same crew vs. same crew being full board modded vs. 1 mod (barricade) or even nothing (especially with height edge) was (and is, without musket) partially broken: rarely it is/was possible to break enemy defense before disengage (also without axes).

I do remember like 1+ years ago that attack v brace meant almost insta-death. Defense has been greatly buffed both in relation of action values and with perk (DD, now a bit nerfed), mod (mainly barricades... buffed during board speed change but then left buffed even if boarding speed back to 3.5 kts).

As a full penetration/reload ship should (and does) smash the same ship not geared (granted similar skill), a full boarder (granted he boards) has to smash a not-boarder (nor counter boarding fit) pretty fast.

So, agreeing muskets mods are too strong now (I think especially lacking a counter - a counter with pros/cons in boarding and/or ship handling), I still think that boarding rebalance is needed, allowing a boarder to, IF succeed in starting an assault, having pretty high chances to fastly win against an unprepped/ungeared defender.

Plenty people dont like boarding. I can understand. But even without repeating "boarding was the most natural outcome of Age of Sail naval clashes", a boarder devotes the great majority of mod/book to do this well. Forfaiting a bunch of powerful potential bonuses. Boarding mods work only if a boarding starts. Having a fair chance to fastly kill should be normal against an unprepped/ungeared enemy.

As I repeated: a better trained and better equipped (and sometimes better lead) force smashing an inferior one. Absolutely normal.

Dont want to lose a board? Gear to fight the boarding yourself, gear to defend from a boarding, gear up to disengage... and especially: dont get boarded.

 

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18 hours ago, Mr Pellew said:

3rd rate vs 3rd rate. Just enough crew to go trough DD.

But that doesn't matter if the other guy has no boaring mods or even just Barricades your going to rip them to pieces just using Cannons, this actually makes muskets usefull again

17 hours ago, Aster said:

As a counter point though I would like to throw out there with the new boarding pike mod plus boarding axes you can instant disengage with less cost just 1 perm 1 book and you have effectively full countered any boarding spec.

I have one of those pikes and been wanting to do an Anit board beuild with them to test to see if it will disengage in 1 round with Axes, Barricades and 5 ringes is all you need, but if you don't have that I would get muskets or marines.  I beat folks in fights or qucik disengage or just held them there even against guys with Marines cause of the barricades.

 

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Pls dev what you do to the boarding

 

Get boarder , 700 crew 650 , got barricads , and what happens , musket volley vs brace , 297 kill

Fix you game , you just give the opportunity to os in boarding without marines.

 

Tard games , i should stop.

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Musket mods just silly atm needs hotfix ,400 plus muskets 400 kills , since when did muskets of this era come with scopes?

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I lost a 5 slot fir/crew boarding l'Ocean against a Christian with about even crew because of this. I had Marines 15, 5 Rings, and Nassau Fencing Masters. I attacked into a Musket Volley (usually good to do) and lost about 380 crew vs their loss of about 80. They did not have Marines either. I don't have a screenshot of the battle, because I stopped playing after that. I don't know if Germann xx1v is a good player, but I don't think it matters when hiding behind broken upgrades.

A game has to require and reward skill to be fun. In order to require skill, a game has to be predictable. If I don't know the outcome of attacking into a musket volley before I click the button, I cannot make a tactical decision as to whether or not I want to do that and it simply becomes guesswork. There is no skill in guesswork.

It made sense when marines was the only boarding mod that had any real effect because marines are visible to the opponent, they know if you have marines and they know how many, therefore the outcome was predictable. Also, the marines I have on my ship refuse to reload any cannons, but now apparently any crew member can pick up a musket and shoot with 90% accuracy.

Edited by --Privateer--
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1 hour ago, --Privateer-- said:

I lost a 5 slot fir/crew boarding l'Ocean against a Christian with about even crew because of this. I had Marines 15, 5 Rings, and Nassau Fencing Masters. I attacked into a Musket Volley (usually good to do) and lost about 380 crew vs their loss of about 80. They did not have Marines either. I don't have a screenshot of the battle, because I stopped playing after that. I don't know if Germann xx1v has any boarding skill, but I don't think it matters when hiding behind broken upgrades.

A game has to require and reward skill to be fun. In order to require skill, a game has to be predictable. If I don't know the outcome of attacking into a musket volley before I click the button, I cannot make a tactical decision as to whether or not I want to do that and it simply becomes guesswork. There is no skill in guesswork.

It made sense when marines was the only boarding mod that had any real effect because marines are visible to the opponent, they know if you have marines and they know how many, therefore the outcome was predictable. Also, the marines I have on my ship refuse to reload any cannons, but now apparently any crew member can pick up a musket and shoot with 90% accuracy.

He surely had some Musket mod (Sea Musket 1766 minimum, or something superior like 1777 or Redoutable).

What's wrong with boarding game now is the OPness of Musket mods that cant be countered by mods or choises: they hit damn too high on any choise.

IMO, aside rebalancing (a bit) musket mods power, "scissors-paper-rock" game has to be rebalanced. ATM Attack really hits hard on Brace and Grenades (even if getting some heavy losses sometimes. Decent on FDG or Muskets (again with heavy losses) and crap on Defense.

Muskets - FDGs - Grenades are almost the same against DEfense and other choises... so the all "circular" gaming is broken (again: not speaking, again, of muskets or other buffing mods).

My idea is =

Attack:                Strong   on    Brace, FDG and Grenades;      Medium on Muskets;                        Low on Defend.
Defense:             Strong   on   Attack;                                                                                                      Low on others.
Grenades:           Strong   on   Brace;                                          Medium on FDGs and Defend;        Low and Muskets and Attack.
Muskets:             Strong   on   Defense;                                     Medium on Attack;                            Low on others.
FIreDeckGuns:   Strong   on   Muskets;                                     Medium on Attack and Defense;    Low on Grenades and FDGs.

Or something about that. The concept should be: I should always have a counter against any action even if buffed. As I should have a good option (attacking) against at least one option.

Balanced about the concept: same crew, full boarding, without errors will kill in a matter of a few rounds a similar crew, no gear and badly handled.
Against nicely handled defender the latter having a small hope to disengage.
Against a decent handled defender with some boarding defense the latter having a good chance of safely disengaging IF not doing bad mistakes.

And stated in the past. Dont allow last sec switch: secret moves. Make choises a bit more complex preparation wise (making so guess-able) and single secret choise.ùIn this case, lower a bit all losses and shorten every round by a good 5 sec: whole boarding will last a the same but with more (secret choise) rounds.

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20 hours ago, --Privateer-- said:

I lost a 5 slot fir/crew boarding l'Ocean against a Christian with about even crew because of this. I had Marines 15, 5 Rings, and Nassau Fencing Masters. I attacked into a Musket Volley (usually good to do) and lost about 380 crew vs their loss of about 80. They did not have Marines either. I don't have a screenshot of the battle, because I stopped playing after that. I don't know if Germann xx1v has any boarding skill, but I don't think it matters when hiding behind broken upgrades.

A game has to require and reward skill to be fun. In order to require skill, a game has to be predictable. If I don't know the outcome of attacking into a musket volley before I click the button, I cannot make a tactical decision as to whether or not I want to do that and it simply becomes guesswork. There is no skill in guesswork.

It made sense when marines was the only boarding mod that had any real effect because marines are visible to the opponent, they know if you have marines and they know how many, therefore the outcome was predictable. Also, the marines I have on my ship refuse to reload any cannons, but now apparently any crew member can pick up a musket and shoot with 90% accuracy.

Same player , i rekt him in 2v1 , bello vs his ocean and a trinco , he start sank , board me and i get os , pls that no sense , bad player can win just with muskets

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The problem with muskets is that they have no major disadvantage.  In RL if a Captain armed the majority of his crew with muskets, they would get torn apart when they were not firing.  They have to be re-loaded and they are just clubs in hand-to-hand.  Plus, sailors were notoriously poor with muskets.

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