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Pre-release and release wipe plans - definitive guide

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On 11/13/2018 at 11:29 AM, admin said:
  • Majority of sales do not come in the first week. - they come over 6 months.  What about those players who buy in a month? in 3 months? Why it should be different for them. 

Im sure you have your own data, but the release is with no doubt a huge selling spike.

Some quote about sales of an unnamed AAA title: 

Quote

Irdeto highlights the first 14 days following release as the most critical for such a game, claiming that up to 80% of sales take place during the period. An impressive 50% of those sales take place within the first four days, the company adds.

https://torrentfreak.com/denuvo-cites-huge-losses-for-aaa-game-not-using-its-anti-piracy-tech-181108/

 

For me it would be a huge turnoff to hear that existing players have a big advantage from the start in a pretty grindy game.

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5 minutes ago, Crimson Sunrise said:

complete wipe would likely proceed the same as any other game on release, u start at 0 and work from there, doesn't mean new players will be unable to collect books themselves while everyone grinds back to max lvl

Yeah and how does it have anyhting to do with what I commented? I said it would be better and easier for new players, if veterans shared books with them. Where did I say they would be unable to do it themselves? It would simply take them longer and much much longer than the long term players since first the veterans and power gamers would buy all / pay most and grind enough to get them faster. How is that so hard to understand?

10 minutes ago, Crimson Sunrise said:

it will be many months before many players have all the books again and all the crafting lvls to make so many high end ships, but that's the beauty of releasing a game with a clean slate.

Yeah, 3-6 months and then the game is exactly where we were before wipe. And by that time only the veterans will have the books again and very few of the players who started at release.

Again, how is it so hard to understand?

12 minutes ago, Crimson Sunrise said:

large of an advantage over other players.

The large advantage would be assets - gold 5/5 ships, stacks of upgrades and resource, currency - it all will be wiped.

14 minutes ago, Crimson Sunrise said:

call it a balancing wipe sure its short lived but it instills confidence in new players

Yes, exactly it is short lived since there will always be new player, they are even in NA right now, before release. So what's the point?

15 minutes ago, Crimson Sunrise said:

being ganked by fleets of other players outside my starting port constantly immediately turned me off from playing the game for 6 months

You will be even more ganked if people want their xp and books back as fast as possible, so how does it have anything to do with this? Ganking is part of human nature to achieve advantage with minimum risk and is part of any MMO. Only game mechanics can prevent or discourage it.

16 minutes ago, Crimson Sunrise said:

a clan did not help with those gank fleets

And you think they will help you when they are farming epic events somewhere to get their books back, because you wanted them to be wiped? Makes sense.

18 minutes ago, Crimson Sunrise said:

very large determinant of playing this type of game if it cant stop ganking of new players why would they stick around. get sunk enough by other players when ur starting out and any new player will get frustrated enough to leave.

And what does it have to do with xp and book wipe... at all? Players will only be encouraged to gank more the less they have. Not the other way around.

I think @Rickard is right, you only created your account to troll this topic...

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14 minutes ago, Ganking Simulator said:

For me it would be a huge turnoff to hear that existing players have a big advantage from the start in a pretty grindy game.

That XP and Craft XP would be save, was promised a long time ago and it is a much bigger advantage than books, since it boosts your economic capabilities significantly.

Also do you really think a potential buyer would be turned off by some xp and books, testers got to keep ( even if it was announced all over the store page, which it isn't ) more than by hundreds of negative steam reviews of testers that got hello kittyed over? The pandora frigate promised to all testers is a "big advantage" too when you start with 0 currency. Do you think a potential buyer would not understand? Do you think he has a choice, if he wants to play a game like NA - the best on the market in this niche by miles?

I see your point but it has little weight compared to the arguments against full wipe.

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57 minutes ago, Ganking Simulator said:

Some quote about sales of an unnamed AAA title: 

This article is about piracy, not testers keeping some xp. Nice try tho. Also anyone can write such an article, it can be personal opinion as much as it can be about hard facts.

Recent Steam ratings will be what helps NA on release the most ( if they are positive ). Even if we can't raise the all time rating enough for it to be positive, potential buyers will consider that it was due to testing and look at the recent rating on release date. @admin

Edited by Sovereign

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I've been playing for close to a year and still don't have any of the higher level books (Just got Loodsman).  The advantages that these "super" books give would be evened out if only they started dropping more frequently.  Why must they be so rare?  Why must only a select few who play the game continuously be "geared up" while more casual players are struggling with poorer equipment.  Shouldn't this game be based more on skill and less on stuff?  On release we will have a solid core of veterans and an influx of new players.  The veterans will be orders of magnitude superior (in game skill) to the newbies.  Make the "gear" easier to acquire and we will have a more balanced game.  It's painfully ironic when a veteran tells a noob "Git Gud", from his ivory tower. 

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2 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Why must they be so rare?

I agree completely, some books are too rare and a wipe would only magnify this problem.

4 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Shouldn't this game be based more on skill and less on stuff?

I think so, too. 

5 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

It's painfully ironic when a veteran tells a noob "Git Gud", from his ivory tower. 

Well to be fair, many people overestimate the impact of books and mods compared to player skill, some use it as constant excuse even. Gear definitely can make a difference sometimes but player skill will beat mods every time ( unless we talk about broken mods like the new musket upgrades in boarding of course ).

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18 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

There actually been a good number of games that has done this where the pre-order or testing team got the game a week or two before every one else as a head start.  Though honestly what makes it diffrent than our test versionm and a live version?  Them saying it's no longer in alpha?  I think we need a wipe and go into BETA testing for a month or so since all the core basic mechanics are there.  Do some tweeks and than wipe every thing for the release.  Now if they do that upon release  or if they do it a week or few before "OFFICIAL RELEASE."   That is up to the Dev team.  Either way we need a wipe to reset every thing and test the actuall econ and final parts of the game.  Folks also forget we will have changes after release (tweeks to RvR System maybe a pirate system etc etc...).

I agree.

Admin is already at this point planning to let us keep major part of our gear and XP? Testing economy when players already have 50-100k Doubloons worth books from Admiralty? How long it takes to grind all books they are planning to give? Even the rare ones? That is how long current testers will benefit. How many months?

Makes you doubt if they want to do this with time like you suggest. Time can also be against them. If release was planned #Soon?

Wipe and months play without wipe after. Even this would be better than no wipe.

Right now we have insane muskets, untested. If devs were able to make this huge "mistake" or can this really be how it was meant to be?  If this big fails get in then what else there can be?

One week would be better than nothing. Also would go as a normal pre-order bonus. Devs give craft/rank XP, planning to give books(best gear), ship knowledge, what not?

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11 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

Well to be fair, many people overestimate the impact of books and mods compared to player skill, some use it as constant excuse even. Gear definitely can make a difference sometimes but player skill will beat mods every time ( unless we talk about broken mods like the new musket upgrades in boarding of course ).

I've been out of this game for a while, so don't know if its still possible, but some upgrades can be very powerfull when stacked, like repair upgrades. 

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1 hour ago, The Spud said:

I've been out of this game for a while, so don't know if its still possible, but some upgrades can be very powerfull when stacked, like repair upgrades. 

Mod stacking possibilities were reduced / nerfed with the last patch and I hope they will be balanced and nerfed further.

Edited by Sovereign

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Wiping books (and buildings without compensation) will play havoc with this:

On 9/25/2018 at 2:44 AM, admin said:
  1. Crafted ships start to matter more.

The "almost" needs to be removed:

Quote

What will almost definitely remain on your account (will not be touched), unless there are some significant issues with the recovery of those items.

  • Acquired books: books will remain but some stats of the books might change
  • Knowledge slots: ship mastery XP will remain, but thresholds might change

Here is the problem that (uncompensated) wipes are likely to create:

At present there is an insufficient volume of doubloons available in the markets to sustain any sort of meaningful crafting economy expansion using extra labor.  After a wipe the volume will fall to zero until such time as all the veterans have replaced their books, doubloons for preferred ships, and level 3 shipyards (and possibly that shiny new academy as well).

The crafting economy is incompatible with uncompensated wipes.  They will pretty much guarantee that there won't be much of one to speak of.

Any initial rush of new player sales following release will be landing in the middle of a player-to-player economy that is at best, very difficult to play, and at worst, simply does not work.  At least not until the veterans all catch up with their doubloon acquisitions.

The current economic design is a bit like an old engine with a carburetor.  Good luck getting it started if there isn't already some fuel in the intake.

Edited by John Jacob Astor
clarification
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Total wipe, back to basic cutter for everyone would be ideal in my opinion.  But then, make the "Rare" go away and mission drops cough up some valuable books.  Balanced playing field.  Good players will always be good players, regardless of gear.  Lets see if the economy works

Edited by Angus MacDuff

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18 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

What do books have to do with the economy?

It is more attractive to spend doubloons on books (and other things) rather than selling them in the markets for Reals.

The player-to-player crafting market is dependent on doubloons for extra labor.

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15 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

What do books have to do with the economy?

Everything has an impact on economy.  If you focus most of your time on grinding for books, you're not participating in a dynamic economy.  If the game is unbalanced because there are "haves" and have-nots", the economy suffers.  Loodsman costs 9k Doubloons.  That has an effect on the economy.

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Guys, that was clear at the steam release that xp will not be wiped anymore,  so don't hurt yourself about hypothetics day1 newcomers potential feeling about crossing rear admirals  with rare books (how would they know) in their gifted /dlc ships... 

 

Newcomers will need days to even discovers how knowledge works, and everyone start with some by default so maybe just make those matter. 

 

Remember this is not a grind game to become the top-tier best-geared 1st-rate-captain game, this is an mmo sandbox in early access for years, you don't wait to buy it on release day and expect to become the king of carribean like that.

 

Keeped knowledges are probably the lesser of their problem,  finding missions and appropriate targets for a basic cutter in capital zone and further is a much bigger problem to work on at the moment. Same for ow tutorial etc..  And i don't even talk about the usual drama around the first weeks rvr empty-pb slots for conquest marks frenzy

 

Find me negative steam comment about a newbees raging for being sunk by higher ranked pvp captains  ?  I don't think this really happen.

 

 

Ship knowledge slots, i am less sure about it, as this means a real gap between having them all unlocked or not, and wiping them would kind of balance the keeping of book knowledge. Another solution would be to open 3 slots for each ship to everyone, and make the requirement for 4th & 5th ones higher to unlock.

Edited by Baptiste Gallouédec

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28 minutes ago, John Jacob Astor said:

doubloons

 

28 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Doubloons

Fair enough, but only labour contracts and high rate ship building have doubloon cost while also having impact on player vs player economy. And new players don't have the craft level to build high rate ships and thus no use for doubloons at the start in this regard.

I wouldn't mind wiping only books that cost doubloons however. Seems legit. Most people will have them back very fast anyways...

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There should be clean start server option at release, everyone from Basic Cutter / Tutorial.

There are +150k Doubloons worth of books in Admiralty? 150k per player is not a small thing to happen for economy.

Crafting level is actually really important in early game. Defines who can sell and what ships. You get XP from crafting ships. Like early 2016, there were plenty of low level ships because everyone was forced for craft XP. Has a big impact how the game runs. Eventually massive stream of Doubloons will be invested to level crafting. Leveling craft will also give more value for resources, for a very long time. Eventually leaving plenty of cheap low level ships behind. Grind will leave history to build on.

When we don't have our ranks, everyone needs ships to level and they buy from crafters. Will support player driven economy massively.

Tests were done so that players have rank/craft XP. I would be surprised if this gave realistic image.

Because HC players are not crafting cheap low level ships, it will be harder start for players who buy the game or have nothing to start with.

Probably not even possible to create good/healthy economy without complete wipe. I don't believe the game will work nicely without.

I most definitely recommend 2 servers.

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 On 11/12/2018 at 2:52 PM, Cmdr RideZ said:. Also 

I am sure all testers from these 5 years will come back to see how it came finally out + new players that hear that the game is finally completed. Many new players may think, as it is normal, that everyone starts from the same line at release.

In every game so far that I have played it has always been very important for players to start from the same line at release. I would be surprised that it would be different with Naval Action.

Hard to believe Electronic Arts would dare to do a mistake this big.

I played Elite Dangerous from the beginning and they did not wipe after Alpha - so not universally true every game gets wiped. I have ranked every time since Sea Trials and I just think starting out again with rank, knowledge and skills would feel like punishment - the DEVS have this one right. I really doubt I would grind again but I am still happy to play.

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a long period ago, this game has over 6000 ppl online at the same time, few months ago, less than 600 ppl online at the same time, and now.......about 200?

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10 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

Because HC players are not crafting cheap low level ships, it will be harder start for players who buy the game or have nothing to start with.

Your friends and even acquaintances will craft you cheap ships for free all week long if you simply bring them the materials. 

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24 minutes ago, Barbancourt said:

Your friends and even acquaintances will craft you cheap ships for free all week long if you simply bring them the materials. 

Hell half the time I"m giving them away cause I'm going through trying to craft a certain build for myself I just give the other ships to clan mates or sale them dirt cheap on the market.  I'm sure others are like that too.

Edited by Sir Texas Sir

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12 hours ago, Sovereign said:

 

Fair enough, but only labour contracts and high rate ship building have doubloon cost while also having impact on player vs player economy. And new players don't have the craft level to build high rate ships and thus no use for doubloons at the start in this regard.

Will have to disagree with that.

The L3 production resource labor + shipyard labor of a T-brig is roughly half the amount of the of the labor wallet (with perks).  Which means it doesn't take very much serious activity to burn through the current allotment of free labor.  And of course new players will hit that wall a good deal sooner as they won't have the L3 buildings.

No big deal if you are not trying to build ships for sale.  Clanmates will probably give them to you.  But I think I would have a very difficult time replicating what I did last spring as a startup shipbuilder and resource seller.

I don't think this is a particularly difficult problem to re-balance.  There are several possibilities.  Either 1) the doubloons requirement for labor contracts needs to be lower, 2) Doubloon earners need some compelling reason to sell for Reals in higher volumes then at present, or 3) labor contracts need to be paid for in Reals.

Then the doubloons would in actual fact only be a high rate ship issue, and the devs can wipe away.

Edited by John Jacob Astor
clarification

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16 minutes ago, John Jacob Astor said:

The L3 production resource labor + shipyard labor of a T-brig is roughly half the amount of the of the labor wallet (with perks).  And of course new players will hit that wall a good deal sooner as they won't have the L3 buildings.

How fast do you need to build?  I'm used to accumulating the resources over time into a stockpile, and I don't have to worry about labor hours for anything except the final shipyard step

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4 minutes ago, Barbancourt said:

How fast do you need to build?  I'm used to accumulating the resources over time into a stockpile, and I don't have to worry about labor hours for anything except the final shipyard step

Sold everything I built pretty much as fast as I could build them until the DLC release drove a big spike in the market sector I was selling into.

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