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21 minutes ago, Eyesore said:

Making it cheaper/easier to build could also be seen as buff? Less need to change performancestats of the ship that way?

I'd rather pay a bit extra and trash every poor sob actually sailing the Wapen then, to be honest. I mean it could be one of multiple buffs to make it more viable but only making it cheaper wouldn't change anything, unless cheaper means for free.

Hey, you wanna sail some pickle against Hercs, Surprises and LRQ ? It's cheaper.

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26 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

Agree to disagree. 1vs1 is where the Wapens turnrate matters much more than in 10vs10, because you won't be able to avoid fire from multiple sources with your turnrate anymore and you won't be as easily sterncamped in a fleet battle where your team can cover your blind spots, allowing you to sail a more potent ship even with lower turnrate in return. Just my experience / opinion. Also in a 1 vs1 most ships have a very good chance of running and escaping the Wapen, even if you are winning.

Well yeah depending on how much hold space we are talking about.

Really, you think more hold space will make her op? Are you serious?

I honestly don't know what you mean. The way I understand this, is you agree that Wapen is only any useful in a 1 vs 1, because in a fleet brawl its turnrate loses value due to multiple damage sources from different angles, and amour hp combined with rotating behind your teammates for repairs becoming more important than turnrate for damage control?

its the hold space and the speed buff i think could be op. I dont really want to go into more details about the wappen anyway. Ship is getting a buff as admin said. Wasted energy to keep on arguing about stuff like that. 

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14 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

For the last 3 years we have been buffing and nerfing ships admin. What is your plan? Do you want real ship handling or balanced ship handling? My point is that you cannot balance ships of different sizes in game. It will be a never ending cycle of nerfing and buffing every ship because there will always be a useless ship. If you make the game real a ship like the wappen is useless against the rest of the ships. It is a relic compared to them. What do you balance her against? Connie? Inger? Both of them would tear the wappen apart and the only comparable ships to her are heavy 5th rates. If you buff the wappen I think it will be to strong. The turn rate of the wappen is already very high and increasing the speed could be to much. 0.5 knots can make or break a ship. I am kind of torn by this idea but maybe someone can convince me otherwise. 

Yes, probably it will never be balanced. No matter how hard you try there will be always meta ships. Tweaks will change metas. 

Balance should come from an economic perspective. If ships become really hard to craft then I would care if I am going to craft 5 Wappens or 3 Agamennons from same materials. Yet, this won't happen since people believe that everyone should be sailing aircraft carrier for balanced gameplay.

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25 minutes ago, Ellias said:

Yes, probably it will never be balanced. No matter how hard you try there will be always meta ships. Tweaks will change metas. 

Balance should come from an economic perspective. If ships become really hard to craft then I would care if I am going to craft 5 Wappens or 3 Agamennons from same materials. Yet, this won't happen since people believe that everyone should be sailing aircraft carrier for balanced gameplay.

Think you will be in for a surprice on balance in the near futher. Admin have said very soon expert ownership of ports will make RvR value. So your Dream about a unbalanced game will come trough. We haven’t seen it yeth ofc. But my guess all goes to the winner. Really looking forward to see how it affect the game.

I haven’t made the calculation, just a gut feeling. Think a single players as it is now can make a 5 rate every 2-3 days. Right now most still have ressources before patch. Just wait to after the wipe, then I think we might see the result being ppl simply have’t no ship to sail. I could be wrong. But do actually belive it might end up being a issue. Yeas I know they can just cap a ship. But really looking forward to see the impact.

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First of all I totally support making the Wappen a heavily armed trader. If it could carry 2000-3000 weight, I would start to use it for escorting my Indiaman's. But ->

I disagree to buffing it's fighting and speed capabilities. I do not think the Wappen needs a buff, it is just ugly! So it is not so popular to use because your forced to look at it and this effects the player usage stats of the ship. This is a real argument, I'm not kidding! :P 
It has a lot of cannons and the turn rate is very good, so it's probably the best line ship for fighting smaller 5. rates etc. Especially if your into demasting.. So it is covering a niche perfectly, why mess with this?
I fear that if it is made faster then it will be able to run/hunt down most 5. rates with ease when it is speed built. 

 

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Since the wappen is wide it would be relatively slower and turn better as it currently does.  The Wappen feels weak and under-crewed and seems to be missing a unique feature since it looks so different.

  1. I would think the Internal Structure should be more than 50% x side HP since the ribs span a wider distance.  Make the Internal structure = 65% x side HP.
  2. An Aggememnon has about 500 / 538 gun crew.  The Wappen has 470 /560 gun crew.  Add at least 60 crew to fix gunnery balance.
  3. The Wappen has 4 decks which gives it an advantage in boarding.  Consider giving it a boarding readiness bonus of 50 / 100.  Adding the 60 crew for gunnery + 30 more crew for more boarding advantage.
  4. Increase the Cargo Hold from 748 to 1100.  This will increase the speed about .3 knts.  This will make room for carrying loot taken from 1st rates and make it easy to carry lots of repairs without losing much speed.

The Christian VII may need similar adjustments once we get to that subject.

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2 hours ago, Ellias said:

Yes, probably it will never be balanced. No matter how hard you try there will be always meta ships.

Just because there are always meta ships and there can never be perfect balance does not mean you can't improve underperforming ships that nobody uses to at least narrow the gap. That's like saying there will never be total world peace and thus trying to solve conflict and prevent wars is a waste of time and effort. Flawed logic in my book.

 

2 hours ago, Ellias said:

sailing aircraft carrier for balanced gameplay.

There is a whole lot of difference between sailing an "aircraft carrier" and sailing a ship that is underperforming to the point where people on teamspeak jokingly ask what ship it is when a enemy player is actually sailing one...  and yes, balanced gameplay should be the number one priority above everything else. I have actually talked to people who really understand game design and for multiplayer games balance is one of the most important things. This is one of the reasons for NA's low player retention. The game is excellent and the best on the market for its niche but it severely lacks balance in many aspects.

 

1 hour ago, SS Minnow said:

advantage in boarding

This seems like another great idea that is realistic and historically accurate. Maybe hold space and boarding could be its stengths. That would go well with its armed trader / trader escort role.

 

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1 hour ago, SS Minnow said:

Since the wappen is wide it would be relatively slower and turn better as it currently does.  The Wappen feels weak and under-crewed and seems to be missing a unique feature since it looks so different.

  1. I would think the Internal Structure should be more than 50% x side HP since the ribs span a wider distance.  Make the Internal structure = 65% x side HP.
  2. An Aggememnon has about 500 / 538 gun crew.  The Wappen has 470 /560 gun crew.  Add at least 60 crew to fix gunnery balance.
  3. The Wappen has 4 decks which gives it an advantage in boarding.  Consider giving it a boarding readiness bonus of 50 / 100.  Adding the 60 crew for gunnery + 30 more crew for more boarding advantage.
  4. Increase the Cargo Hold from 748 to 1100.  This will increase the speed about .3 knts.  This will make room for carrying loot taken from 1st rates and make it easy to carry lots of repairs without losing much speed.

The Christian VII may need similar adjustments once we get to that subject.

Why?  Why do we need a buff on another ship that isn't as good as other ships in the class.  Some ships are just worse than others.  The Agga can beat the Wappen, so we need to buff the Wappen??  The OP was to increase the hold a bit to make it a little better at trade, not equalise all ships so that the only difference is the look.  Not a bad suggestion, but we always seem to run down this ridiculous path that all ships must be equal.

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1 hour ago, Tiedemann said:

just ugly

I think that is fairly subjective to be honest. I know a lot of guys that like the looks of the ship. I am really into its unique style, it's something else and the default paint job is for me hands down the best one in the game currently.

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Just now, Sovereign said:

I think that is fairly subjective to be honest. I know a lot of guys that like the looks of the ship. I am really into its unique style, it's something else and the default paint job is for me hands down the best one in the game currently.

I agree that the different styles of ships that we have make the game richer (except for the fugly Le Req).  Your OP makes some sense as well.  Making it a decent heavy trader or trader escort would maybe cause more players to sail in one of them. 

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3 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

The OP was to increase the hold a bit to make it a little better at trade, not equalise all ships so that the only difference is the look.  Not a bad suggestion, but we always seem to run down this ridiculous path that all ships must be equal.

Yeah, all I was asking for is making it a armed trader or give it more value as escort ship, maybe with a small boarding bonus. I think the Wapen should be the go to ship when you want to escort some traders in your clan but have only one guy for the job. I never said it should beat the Agamemnon or be able to perform as well as more modern warships, I merely said the fact that it doesn't makes the ship obsolete in the game and it should hence have a special role to make up for that. So when I read through the actual history of the ship it was obvious.

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I often escort my traders with a stupidly fast LGVR.  The power of that is your whole fleet can enter any port.  A fast Wappen with boarding mods and that size of a crew might just end up as a specialized seal clubber of epic proportion.  Not being able to enter enemy ports is where I see a problem with your OP suggestion. 

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18 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Not being able to enter enemy ports is where I see a problem with your OP suggestion. 

Well I think the Wapen being able to enter enemy closed ports would be too strong and unrealistic but most clans open their ports up for everyone to trade anyways, if they want to get tax income, so it shouldn't be a major problem. I envisioned Wapen more of a armed transporter between your own ports for resources, repairs and everything RvR related or when they add the mechanic where you have to supply your ports with goods from surrounding ports etc. ... For smuggling to enemy closed ports I wouldn't consider Wapen, simply because it is too slow and would maybe use LGVR instead, like you mentioned.

Edited by Sovereign
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13 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

Just because there are always meta ships and there can never be perfect balance does not mean you can't improve underperforming ships that nobody uses to at least narrow the gap. That's like saying there will never be total world peace and thus trying to solve conflict and prevent wars is a waste of time and effort. Flawed logic in my book.

Thanks for sharing your logic with us, at least for the people who care. I don't.

You can agree or disagree but evaluating logic and finding true flaws requires high perception, waste amount of knowledge or proper ignorance. In either case, you are wasting yourself here.

This is a game forum, not a  Game-Labs meeting room. There are many sensible people here who just want to share their experience and opinions about the game they play. No need to act as a logic authority and reply to every post... and please be nice and don't quote anything from here. I won't reply. 

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1 hour ago, Ellias said:

people who care. I don't

Your reply suggests otherwise. Also who says anybody here cares about your opinion? See what I did there? Logic.

1 hour ago, Ellias said:

You can agree or disagree

Obviously I disagree and explained why.

1 hour ago, Ellias said:

This is a game forum, not a  Game-Labs meeting room. There are many sensible people here who just want to share their experience and opinions about the game they play.

Yes, exactly. I told you my opinion, the one that would seem logical to most people and I even gave you an analogy to explain it further. I don't exactly know what your problem with that is but it seems I really rustled your jimmies...

1 hour ago, Ellias said:

please be nice and don't quote anything from here. I won't reply. 

If you do not wish to converse with me, you should not address me. This is a game forum, not your personal E-mail account, remember?

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5 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Why?  Why do we need a buff on another ship that isn't as good as other ships in the class.  Some ships are just worse than others.  The Agga can beat the Wappen, so we need to buff the Wappen??  The OP was to increase the hold a bit to make it a little better at trade, not equalise all ships so that the only difference is the look.  Not a bad suggestion, but we always seem to run down this ridiculous path that all ships must be equal.

The implied goal is to make the ship useful for at least some purpose.  I dont want to see all the focus be on balancing the side HP, thickness and speed so it equals the aggememnon or constitution.  Make each ship as different as possible but tailored to having an advantage at a specific role.  For example, the US coast guard might include a wappen with the fleet to just handle the boarding if we were able to de-crew a line ship and wanted to capture it.  Its more efficient than bringing a lineship with our patrol maybe.

I also wanted to point out that the devs introduced internal structure (center bar) which gives us another adjustment yet to be used...its all set at 50% side HP for every ship....why?

Lets try to be specific and give numbers...its more helpful and better understood.

 

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43 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

3rd rate buff

I don't think 3rd rate needs much of a buff, to be honest. It's basically a cheaper Bellona. They could give it a single mortar for some utility tho, not sure how balanced that would be.

 

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1 hour ago, Slim McSauce said:

Not sure if I said this already, what about ingermanland and 3rd rate buff? essex needs a buff too.

?

Have you fought against an Essex (a player, not AI)? This is one of the best PvP ships. With its very good turnrate and its good sailing profile and its armament it is a strong ship. What do you want to buff? Have you sailed an Essex?  And please do not bring your „give Essex chasers“ idea in again. It would make all other 5th rates obsolete.

3rd rate is a cheap Bellona and usefull in RvR because of less BR. 

Ingermanland is a little week but in the right hands and equipped properly it is a very good brawler in close fights because of the turnrate. It could need some HP or thickness, like the Wappen, but if you increase the stats of Wappen or Inger to much, they would become to strong very quickly. Wappen and Inger are strong against Frigates, esp. those with bad turnrate, like the Endymion. They are very week against Bellonas and maybe to slow to escape from 3rd rates. But look at the Wappens history. She was an convoy escort with big cargo hold. She was slow, maybe she should be a little more tanky.

I like the idea with the increased cargo hold of the Wappen.

 

Edited by Sir Loorkon
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Essex is a very average ship with average turnrate. Nothing spectacular except crew. It actually needs it's bow cannons because it had them in real life. Not really up for discussion.

Ingermanland outdated and outmatched in every way by the Wasa when it was introduced. Now 4th rate battles are gone, I haven't seen one in months which is a tell tale sign a ship is UP.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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2 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Ingermanland outdated and outmatched in every way by the Wasa when it was introduced. Now 4th rate battles are gone, I haven't seen one in months which is a tell tale sign a ship is UP.

How could you see it? You stated some weeks ago that you do not play atm and I have seen you only in the US nation chat and here.

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9 hours ago, Sir Loorkon said:

How could you see it? You stated some weeks ago that you do not play atm and I have seen you only in the US nation chat and here.

a few weeks is a lot of weeks ago. I still play and I run a clan with @Iroquois Confederacy, we're in set up mode soon to transition into active recruitment for the best and most promising US players and we might have a discord and that's it. Good players who know what they're doing and what others are doing as they do it is our motto thanks to @Colliard in game soon to go swedish, US will be losing one of her best dockmasters.

Back to the Ingermanland, it was UP even before the Wasa was introduced as the 2nd 4th rate "glass cannon" with 32 pound guns on her main deck. Wasa along with ingermanland along with just about all 4th rates are irrelevant now which is another balance thing that needs solving.

 

 

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