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HMS Victory

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So, as far as I understand, the 1st rates will become very expensive with the new patch and this includes the Victory aswell. What reason will there be to build a Victory once it becomes even more expensive when also taking BR into account - the Bucentaure is probably the better choice. The only thing the Victory has is the recent addition of 68pd carronades for the weather deck and I don't think it is good enough to make it competitive with the other 1st rates and especially with its cheaper ( BR and resources ) alternative - the Bucentaure. 

What makes the Victory viable or what should be buffed on it?

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About BR:

when current BR was calculated they used "popularity" as one on the variables.

The current BR is kinda joke, but it certainly gave a life to 3rd rate and Buc . Admin clearly said that it is a temporary (or not final) BR and it will be recalculated. There should be more smooth BR difference.

Stats:

Just worse than the other 2 everywhere but speed (~0.5kn and ~0.3kn LOL) and turn rate. No idea what would make it better and keep the balance

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8 minutes ago, Beeekonda said:

No idea what would make it better and keep the balance

Probably more speed and especially turnrate since the Victory seems smaller / shorter than Santisima or L'Ocean... maybe a bit more crew? 950 instead of 850?

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Vic should receive a HP buff. it has less crew and dmg already, give it HP and speed

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Doesn't really matter cause seems none of the true numbers are in test so we have no clue just how rare or expensive 1st rates our.  If they are going back to being super rare they need to be super powerfull that can only be stopped by other first rate.  When I give a Herc a full broad side it needs to be sinking.

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29 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Doesn't really matter cause seems none of the true numbers are in test so we have no clue just how rare or expensive 1st rates our.  If they are going back to being super rare they need to be super powerfull that can only be stopped by other first rate.  When I give a Herc a full broad side it needs to be sinking.

If we're talking RL balance then yes, a broadside from a SOL should be catastrophic to a 5th rate.  But, really, A well handled 3rd rate could beat a poorly handled 1st rate.  They were almost the same ships, just an extra deck on the 1st.

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37 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Doesn't really matter cause seems none of the true numbers are in test so we have no clue just how rare or expensive 1st rates our.  If they are going back to being super rare they need to be super powerfull that can only be stopped by other first rate.  When I give a Herc a full broad side it needs to be sinking.

Well ships in Real Life rarely sunk unless it was shot beneath the waterline, the ships delivered devastating damage to the crew because of wood splinters, it would then often go into boarding or surrendering. Also this game needs muskets, grenades and swivel guns option out of boarding mode, and the 8kn boarding function compensated well for that but i dont get it why they changed it back to 3.5kn

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IMO, the balance between first rates should go something like this:

Santisima: medium HP & thickness, most firepower, medium turning, medium speed, second-best sailing profile, medium crew. Pretty much a glass cannon, but handles fairly well. Shame the sides are a bit flat, perhaps sometime we'll get a re-model of it...

L'Ocean: maximum HP, lowest thickness, mid firepower, lowest turn rate, slowest speed, worst sailing profile, highest crew. Super tanky HP ship, with good angles but not as much thickness. Firepower is decent but handles not very well.

Victory: highest thickness, medium HP (roughly same as Santi but less than Ocean), best turn rate, best speed, weakest broadside, lowest crew. So it'll sail great and tank a lot when angled, but doesn't hit as hard as the other two and melts the fastest if you don't watch your angles.

 

And when I say deviations in thickness (the most important stat to get right, IMO), its not much. The base stats on the 'thin' L'Ocean should only be about 5cm thinner than the base of the Victory. Similar with HP....we don't need a spread of 3-5k HP between them as we have tried. 1.5-2.8k HP difference between L'Ocean and Victory if the other above suggestions to thickness are applied should suffice. Ideally, we'll see a balance again where all 3 first rates are equally viable for PvP or RvR, with ship choice dictated by player's preferences.

 

If you recall, this is basically how they used to be balanced (and they were better balanced then than they are now):

Santisima: lowest HP, medium speed, medium turn rate, high firepower, medium sailing profile. (not so different from what I suggested)

L'Ocean: highest HP, slowest speed, worst turn rate, medium firepower, worst sailing profile. (pretty much exactly what I suggested)

Victory: medium HP (only a little less than L'Ocean), highest speed, best turn rate, worst firepower, best sailing profile. (pretty similar to my suggestion)

 

The buff to 68pd carronades really helped Victory, now she only puts out 70 damage per broadside less than a carronade L'Ocean. But the low HP is painful on Victory compared to the other two. I still sail Victory a fair bit because I can usually manage to avoid leaks and I really like the turn rate and good sailing profile. But I am wary of taking it into PBs because it just can't take the same punishment that a L'Ocean or Santisima can.

Leaks: as I said, I can usually manage to avoid them. Even still, Victory does seem to take leaks much easier than it should. Even luffing the sails and depowering can expose a lot of waterline with wave action. L'Ocean seems about right with how it takes leaks: heeled over = sink from one broadside of leaks; neutralize your heel = you take a few leaks but not enough to sink. Santisima is very hard to leak (there's a special spot you have to aim), but I feel that's ok since it has the worst hull model with almost no shape.

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Tbh, Victory is perfect as she is. She handles like a frigate and outsails any ship that can give her a pounding.

Also, what leaks? Correctly fitted and properly handled she'll never sink to leaks. The bellona handles leaks much worse than the Victory.

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5 hours ago, William Death said:

IMO, the balance between first rates should go something like this:

L'Ocean: maximum HP, lowest thickness, mid firepower, lowest turn rate, slowest speed, worst sailing profile, highest crew. Super tanky HP ship, with good angles but not as much thickness. Firepower is decent but handles not very well. 

From what I heard the ships of the series were very sturdy but also could maneuver as well as the 2 deck series of 74 and 80 guns... Just a little bit slower.

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3 minutes ago, Louis Garneray said:

From what I heard the ships of the series were very sturdy but also could maneuver as well as the 2 deck series of 74 and 80 guns... Just a little bit slower.

Well...by historical balancing...yeah maybe so. But if we go by historical data this happens:

3rd 2nd and 1st rates are very sturdy, quite fast (especially many 3rd rates performed better than frigates), and basically wreck anything smaller than them that they come across. As a result, its rare to see anyone sailing anything smaller than a 3rd rate.

Constitution, Indefatigable, Endymion, and Trincomalee are the only frigates that will be used because they are the best/most advanced and offer a faster alternative to the lineships above. Still able to wreck anything smaller and occasionally fight above their weight class. 

Smaller ships are slower because less waterline length and less spread of canvas. 

Santisima sails horribly and is only used as a floating gun platform (Trafalgar, anyone?).

Victory sails 12kn when built WO/WO. Here come the teak/wo 15.5 Victorys (I miss mine).

Constitution does 13.5kn LO/WO.  Oh boy. (The roleplayers in the US will love this one. Give them the Pennsylvania and they'll really freak out :lol:). Meanwhile I'll get a light and super-modded 24pd frigate doing 15.5kn+ at all angles from beam reach and further downwind when fir/fir, nothing will escape me!

....

See what I mean?

Its a slippery slope, when we start balancing ships on historical data. Better to balance via a gameplay perspective (since we are, after all, playing a game for the fun not for the simulation).

Thats why I recommended Ocean be a miserable tub to sail, but a tanky tub with a powerful broadside.

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5 hours ago, William Death said:

Well...by historical balancing...yeah maybe so. But if we go by historical data this happens:

3rd 2nd and 1st rates are very sturdy, quite fast (especially many 3rd rates performed better than frigates), and basically wreck anything smaller than them that they come across. As a result, its rare to see anyone sailing anything smaller than a 3rd rate.

Constitution, Indefatigable, Endymion, and Trincomalee are the only frigates that will be used because they are the best/most advanced and offer a faster alternative to the lineships above. Still able to wreck anything smaller and occasionally fight above their weight class. 

Smaller ships are slower because less waterline length and less spread of canvas. 

Santisima sails horribly and is only used as a floating gun platform (Trafalgar, anyone?).

Victory sails 12kn when built WO/WO. Here come the teak/wo 15.5 Victorys (I miss mine).

Constitution does 13.5kn LO/WO.  Oh boy. (The roleplayers in the US will love this one. Give them the Pennsylvania and they'll really freak out :lol:). Meanwhile I'll get a light and super-modded 24pd frigate doing 15.5kn+ at all angles from beam reach and further downwind when fir/fir, nothing will escape me!

....

See what I mean?

Its a slippery slope, when we start balancing ships on historical data. Better to balance via a gameplay perspective (since we are, after all, playing a game for the fun not for the simulation).

Thats why I recommended Ocean be a miserable tub to sail, but a tanky tub with a powerful broadside.

If we went by historical standards I'd like gunports and the punishment that came with them if a careless captain sported more sails than the seas and ship could support. Frigates in general had their lower gundeck higher from the waterline than 3rd rates, and even those would not run with open gunports in rough seas..

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