Repair Balancing

[Stars and Stripes]

5 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

so sorry I work away from home 6 days a week and can only log in 1-2 hours a week. If you doubt my judgment I'm still will to beat I will crush you in a duel. I know how the game works and I know what equals less players. Repairs is not one of them. 

(...)

The games moved on. 

(...)

Edited October 18, 2018 by Hethwill the Harmless
disrespectful remarks removed

[Stars and Stripes]

5 hours ago, William Death said:

Also, its a bit funny you call @HachiRoku a ganker. I've actually seen him to be a skilled player who can best

I never called him  Ganker??

I have fought him in the past (early 2017 off navasse) and I have always considered him about average.

However in my opinion the current system allows for a nice balance of tactics and the old would favour long range sniping and early running.

Like I said this is not something anyone In-game is actually bothered about.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Stars and Stripes

[Slim McSauce]

1 hour ago, Stars and Stripes said:

However in my opinion the current system allows for a nice balance of tactics and the old would favour long range sniping and early running.

I disagree. The current system forces heavy up close brawling as the only way to fight, long range battles aren't settled quick enough before most if not all damage is repaired. 1 repair per hull and sail would be fantastic for opening up combat to some clever strategies, without having to worry about contesting the DPS/tank meta.

I would also take 2 repairs total, can either go two hull to sail or repair both once for 35%, with no timer so if you get double dismasted you still have a slight chance and it's not game over.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Stars and Stripes]

34 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

would also take 2 repairs total, can either go two hull to sail or repair both once for 35%, with no timer so if you get double dismasted you still have a slight chance and it's not game over.

Atm you have to chose, when to repair, what to repair and how many repairs you want to carry vs speed and what repair mods/perks if any to use.  All this equals wide choice.

You suggestion would dull down fights into use repair and run. Everyone would carry the same and repair mods would be mute.

The way it is now, offers player choice and tactical use of those choices and thats good for any mmo in my opinion.

But like I said, tweaking this now when there is so much more to do would be to fiddle while Rome burns.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Stars and Stripes
Perks not pervs lol

[Jack Jones]

8 minutes ago, Stars and Stripes said:

The way it is now, offers player choice and tactical use of those choices and thats good for any mmo in my opinion.

Gotta agree with stars on this one. The system now is less arcady and is all about choosing how you play.🤔

Plus let's not distract the devs for important stuff. 

[HachiRoku]

4 hours ago, Stars and Stripes said:

The games moved on. 

 

What the hello kitty are you talking about? I gave the devs constructive criticism as I always do in threads other than national. (...) I know enough about the combat system to know what works and what doesn't. (...)

[Sir Loorkon]

I start to love this thread...

[Angus MacDuff]

4 hours ago, Stars and Stripes said:

Like I said this is not something anyone In-game is actually bothered about.

I play every day and I hate this repair system.  It is completely arcade.  No actual ship or actual crew were ever brought back from the dead in the heat of combat.  The multiple repairs just allows players who suck at fighting to stay in the battle or escape when they start losing.  Repair mods shouldn't exist.  Yes some players will pop a sail repair and run...so what?  If you have a faster ship you can run away.  Lets win fights with our guns and not with unrealistic repair mechanics.

[William Death]

6 hours ago, Stars and Stripes said:

I never called him  Ganker??

I have fought him in the past (early 2017 off navasse) and I have always considered him about average.

However in my opinion the current system allows for a nice balance of tactics and the old would favour long range sniping and early running.

Like I said this is not something anyone In-game is actually bothered about.

You said, quote "No one at all,  moans about this in game except gankers. Oh how the gankers would love this idea."  In your post where you quoted Hachi. He complains about repair system, you say only gankers complain about repair system. Ergo, he is a ganker by your logic?

But moving on past silly name-calling (which was far from the point of my post).

 

Where do you get your data that nobody in-game is bothered by current repairs? Please, share this data.

Because I log in and play almost daily (and I have done so since 2016 when I bought the game), and I don't like the current repair system, and nearly everyone I've spoken with who's played since the old repair system doesn't like it either.

I've done RvR, PvP, Duels, you name it. Listen to the skilled players when we tell you: current repair system does not balance tactics. It forces players to use one tactic: carry super repair mods and spam a rep every 12 minutes. If you get beat up, kite away for 12 minutes and come back. Oh yes, much skill.

Keep your opinion that you like multi reps if you must, every player is certainly entitled to make his own judgement on what mechanics he likes and dislikes, but from what I've seen in numerous threads about the subject, majority of posters in those threads dislike unlimited reps, or at the very least wish for slightly different repair mechanics.

 

If you'd ever like to test it, perhaps you'd agree to two duels with me. Winner/loser of the duels doesn't matter; we'd just be looking at the type of tactics/choices made in the two duels. The first will be using as close an approximation as we can to the old repair system. We'll each have one hull rep and one rig rep, no rum (unfortunately there will be a 12 minute timer between the hull and rig rep, but there's nothing we can do about that). Then we'll have a second duel. Same ships, but unlimited repairs. I will be wholly surprised if you come away from that thinking you had to make harder, more tactical choices with multi-reps than with 1/1 repairs.

 

Oh, and no comment on the rest of that post you quoted from me? Any explanation for how a large fleet was wrecked by a small fleet with current repair system, but in the old system when a small fleet got caught by a large fleet the small fleet sank? What about the similar post @Teutonic made, substantiating that with further evidence? 

 

[Guest]

If you limit repairs, goodbye to 3v20 feats of skill which require the ability to repair.

[Old Crusty]

Repairs are to easy to do and extend battle  to much. They either need to take longer or be able to do less off them. For s game, repairs during battle is way to much a part of the game.

[Capn Rocko]

6 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

I disagree. The current system forces heavy up close brawling as the only way to fight, long range battles aren't settled quick enough before most if not all damage is repaired. 1 repair per hull and sail would be fantastic for opening up combat to some clever strategies, without having to worry about contesting the DPS/tank meta.

This is almost exactly what I suggested 1+ years ago.

Btw, I thought everyone was crying about boarding meta with current patch or did that stop? 

[Angus MacDuff]

53 minutes ago, Flinch said:

If you limit repairs, goodbye to 3v20 feats of skill which require the ability to repair.

Good.  it's ridiculous for 3 to defeat 20.  The feat of skill is repair skill, not fighting or tactical skill.

[William Death]

1 hour ago, Flinch said:

If you limit repairs, goodbye to 3v20 feats of skill which require the ability to repair.

There is little skill in there mate. Routinely fleets come to Mortimer to do that. Routinely we go with a fleet to Charleston to do that. Same thing at KPR, random OW engagements... It is not skill. It is a clever fleet composition and good repair strategy vs a lot of less-skilled players.

I enjoy it, it makes some AWESOME screenshots. "Look at me we won 4 vs 18 aren't we pros!" But its not good for the game. Its not fun for the other side. It doesn't represent anything historical. It. Should. Not. Happen.

It rarely happened when we had 1/1 repairs. If it did then, then you knew that fleet had some skill to pull that off. And/or the other side were complete noobs. Now anyone with access to proper ships and a fleet that can work together can do it. I even posted earlier, in this very thread, a comparison of small fleet vs large fleet fights of 2 years ago, and what happens today. Something changed along the way, and not all of it is increased skill from experience 

We need to separate clever tactics, group fighting, focused fire, etc. from spamming repairs and kiting around till you win. The first is true NA skill. The second is perceived skill.

Thats not to say that all of the players able to pull of a 3v20 today aren't skilled. Far from it, usually. Just that a large, large part of the reason they're able to do it is because of unlimited repairs. 
 

 

[Teutonic]

I said i didn't like hard caps but I would love for a hard repair limit to come back into the game, or a large increase in the cooldown for repairs.

More players sunk back them on both sides, more rewards were given out. More enjoyment for boths sides! One side would get a ton of kills, the other side would be able to exact revenge on their enemies. 

A 1v1 was also a serious display of skill and achievement. 

Edited October 18, 2018 by Teutonic

[Farrago]

20 hours ago, Stars and Stripes said:

You don't even play the game anymore.

No one at all,  moans about this in game except gankers. Oh how the gankers would love this idea. 

1 repair and your sails are down and no escape for you......equals even less players.

 

I play every day and while I don’t moan about this issue, I do think repairs need some refinement.

I like that we decide how many repairs we take and how our decisions affect ow and battle speed. It also requires thought before and during a patrol.

The problem with repairs can be solved IMO by reducing the stackable repairs bonuses, repeated repairs giving diminishing returns, and  increasing cooldown between repairs significantly. Repairs should infinitely drop and sell in every port.

[Batman]

6 hours ago, Flinch said:

If you limit repairs, goodbye to 3v20 feats of skill which require the ability to repair.

If the three are so skilled, why do they need multiple repairs to defeat the twenty?

[Stars and Stripes]

This topic has become so fractured it's hard to follow.

The OP suggested an arcade style set instant repair system.

Most suggestions are noe turning toward limiting repairs.

The people making these suggestions would benefit from it, not the poor saps who they all prey upon.

Think of the game and of increasing numbers before you all clamour to remove any means weaker players have of maybe surviving a round or two against your super modded uber build ships.

Limit the ability of lesser players to repair and watch the numbers drop.

[Slim McSauce]

5 hours ago, Stars and Stripes said:

This topic has become so fractured it's hard to follow.

The OP suggested an arcade style set instant repair system.

Most suggestions are noe turning toward limiting repairs.

The people making these suggestions would benefit from it, not the poor saps who they all prey upon.

Think of the game and of increasing numbers before you all clamour to remove any means weaker players have of maybe surviving a round or two against your super modded uber build ships.

Limit the ability of lesser players to repair and watch the numbers drop.

what's arcade about it? It's 1 full repair at once in dire emergencies that before would spell death, or 3 over an 80 minute period. It'd be even better to make it  2 emergency repairs or 2 repairs for 33% over 80 minutes. 2 repairs in consecutive would repair enough to bring any ship back to a fighting or running state. It's more punishing this way, but more rewarding as every kill in a battle will require taking the advantage of positioning and gunnery to secure the kill. In accordance to that perhaps it goes so deep as to affect what ships we choose to bring for battle. Will a 1st rate or SOL still be as effective alone when multiple small ships can chain it AND keep it down to 50% sails and has used all of it's repairs?
 

Edited October 19, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Teutonic]

If there is one thing I miss, it is that a fireship used to be a huge deal, limited repairs meant that someone fireshipping could/would create 'near' permanent damage that would affect the fights outcome. Now a fireship is laughed at and more useless.

My biggest gripe really comes down to the fact that we lost a lot of interesting strategies and options because players can just repair all the damage away now. 

It comes down to the fact that a lot of us say in Eve Online, "A change can benefit a new player, but the veteran players take advantage of the change." Same thing happens here, something that helps a new player is most certainly going to help a veteran sailor. Mutliple repairs allow new players options to stay alive longer, but a veteran is going to know how to abuse it...and well, we are seeing that right now.

 

Edited October 19, 2018 by Teutonic

[Angus MacDuff]

11 hours ago, Stars and Stripes said:

This topic has become so fractured it's hard to follow.

The OP suggested an arcade style set instant repair system.

Most suggestions are noe turning toward limiting repairs.

The people making these suggestions would benefit from it, not the poor saps who they all prey upon.

Think of the game and of increasing numbers before you all clamour to remove any means weaker players have of maybe surviving a round or two against your super modded uber build ships.

Limit the ability of lesser players to repair and watch the numbers drop.

Lesser players don't get a chance to use repairs much.  Most of them will try a sail repair and run away.  24 minutes without a hull repair is enough to kill them.

[Guest]

but if i ask you this.

Is it better if the new player learns when to do what repair by failing, or is it better that the new new player learns that they can get punished for their mistakes and still come back.

Also is it fair towards the player that dont make a mistake that if he is swarmed by 3 players, they makes some mistakes but sails away, repairs and come back with a full hp ship?

[Angus MacDuff]

Nothing is "Fair".  If you get swarmed 3v1 and one of them pulls out because of damage, that's perfectly reasonable.  I hate that he can come back fully repaired though.  You're probably going to die anyway (unless you're Ram Dinark).  As far as new players are concerned, they learn by being victims, observing their own mistakes and then asking questions about it...or they never learn and stay easy meat. 

[Licinio Chiavari]

Quietly following this thread... And I'd like to underline a couple of points.

From ganker's PoV (as I am often depicted), the less the repairs, the less the sealclubbing. Period.

Raiders sail often pretty fast ships, usually far more expensive than their preys' ones. A K/D ratio anything close to 1:1 (or even 3:1) is simply not economically viable. Therefore having no (or very limited) combat repairs will lead raiders (and in general more experienced captains on smaller ships vs less skilled on bigger) to disengage at the first bad shot: if I can repair every 10 minutes, even if damaged I can stay in combat, wait to repair, and push over again. Otherwise, as soon as I get some damage I will have to evaluate disengaging. Especially inside enemy safezones.

Therefore any reduction on repairs will be a nerf to raiders, and in general to more experienced captains (knowing how to use repairs at best and how to protect their ship until next repair) far more than less experienced ones. And potentially a further defense for players in safezones (if unlimited enemies can join my battle for unlimited time, limiting repairs will push me running at the very first damages).

Same reasoning about the weirdness of the bragged 3v20 battles.

No way it will be going to happen anymore with limited (or no) combat repairs.

Skill and gear superiority could be able to overcome bad odds... Up to a limit. Without infinite (and overbuffed) repairs, any 3+v1 will be simply deadly in 90+% cases. As it should be.

Another good side effect: casuals/newbies will be less humiliated.

Losing 1v2 vs a well geared veteran could be bearable. Being smashed 5v20 is utterly demoralizing... Aside totally unrealistic; please remember players get attracted by NA being it, in theory, a realistic simulation.

Less humiliating battles hopefully leading to a better player retention.

True realism would call for more or less zero repairs in combat (and limited in OW).

But this is a game. As we can (personally "barely") live up with highly simplified sailing, I think we could live up with (very) limited repairs.

Simplest solution could be the repeatly called 1 hull/1 sail/1 cree repair per battle. And unlimited in OW.

More hardcore solution could be, ad proposed, being able to devote crew ti repair all over the battle, getting very slow repairs all over the combat, with higher crew damage (for example to sails) or being even slower (barely noticeable) if not done with reduced (battle) sails.

Most hardcore could be simply banning repairs in combat.

In all cases I would like to see also OW limited repairs: fair unreal a ship badly damaged leaving a battle and being perfectly brand new a second later. Or at least allowing full repairs in OW allowed on cooldown only with ship stopped in shallow waters.

Plenty possible solutions.

Still I definately think we need to test ("again" we can say) our combat system with some repair hard limitation before going live.

 

 

[Capn Rocko]

15 hours ago, Stars and Stripes said:

This topic has become so fractured it's hard to follow.

The OP suggested an arcade style set instant repair system.

Most suggestions are noe turning toward limiting repairs.

The people making these suggestions would benefit from it, not the poor saps who they all prey upon.

Think of the game and of increasing numbers before you all clamour to remove any means weaker players have of maybe surviving a round or two against your super modded uber build ships.

Limit the ability of lesser players to repair and watch the numbers drop.

Skilled players have the same number of repairs as weaker players. I don't understand what advantage you see with the current system? It only drags out fights much longer than they should last and provides a mechanic for griefers and stern campers. I think that @admin's idea of increasing repair weight will not solve anything other than limit the amount of battles players fight before returning to port (which is a bad thing imo). At the very least they should double the cooldown timer.