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Gregory Rainsborough

Griefing - Dbl 00 Buck

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22 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

Ok... double invisibility would work but not "insta close" battles. Or 2 minutes "can't join sitting in port bro, sorry". ?

Invisibility would work better if you didn't have to spend the entire invisbile timer turning.

A number of players always say speed is the #1 stat you need and I would argue it is because of the multi-tag griefing type style you deal with if you aren't fast enough to leave the area.

If there was the ability to log off aftsr a battle with the battle end screen like we had in the past.....well, i'd much rather have that then.

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4 hours ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

I was dragged into a pointless battle as he had some friends who couldn't have got there in time and he decided to waste my time so that they could attempt to gank me.

^^ this is why a remarkably higher invis and speedboost is a must

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14 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

Invisibility would work better if you didn't have to spend the entire invisbile timer turning.

A number of players always say speed is the #1 stat you need and I would argue it is because of the multi-tag griefing type style you deal with if you aren't fast enough to leave the area.

If there was the ability to log off aftsr a battle with the battle end screen like we had in the past.....well, i'd much rather have that then.

Sure. The griefing is real on both instances - merits and defects for both options. But exit to port... not really. 

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1 hour ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

This kind of unsportsmanlike behaviour shouldn't be tolerated.

Seriously? I’m consider myself fair and and usually able to see all sides to an argument but this specific situation doesn’t seem to have anything to do with sportsmanship or the lack thereof. I guess sportsmanlike would be if you only engaged a single first rate in your first rate but no one is advocating such “sportsmanship” in NA.

We have a problem with mechanics in battle. Is there a problem with post battle spawn locations being exactly known? Yes. It’s also a problem that an artificial timer determines if forces can join a battle or not.

But the idea of a lighter ship slowing and shadowing with a goal of bringing heavier ships to bear is a valid tactic. That is what happened.

You raided Dutch waters in a lone L’Ocean for much of yesterday. The idea that we would not respond because it was your bed time and you wanted to get your first rate back to home waters is preposterous.

I was in the last squadron headed out to attempt to get you. Ultimately we decided to turn back. We made several mistakes in our responses to your incursion. You made the mistake of getting stuck deep in enemy territory in a slow but powerful ship. You ultimately fought your way out gaining — as you said on Global — the top spot on the PVP board.

Griefing without the intention of combat is bad. But that’s not what happened here. The Dutch were looking to fight and since you were in our waters in a 1st Rate, I assume you were too. We just weren’t headed to bed yet.

Fair sails. 

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Frankly, I find this humorous. Sorry but you cant always make a clean getaway. From the sounds of it thr requin did his job. I really am not a fan of the requin but that is a different topic. You were caught and pulled into a battle so reinforcements could arrive. Not griefing just a typical move. If the entire time the man in the requin had no intent on fighting or stalling you till reinforcments arrived, then I could see your point but it is not. Waste of a thread. Waste of my time posting. You are griefing me. How dare you. 

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At risk of incurring the wrath of my clan lead 😉, I have to agree that this is a NA mechanic problem, not a griefing problem.

If the intent was to fight and sink you, delaying you for 20 minutes is definitely annoying, but it's not griefing in the sense that any other community uses the word. Griefing is an attempt to ruin the game for you. Fighting is the game.

The fact that the fight and chase dragged on for three hours is immaterial because a fight is definitely not griefing, no matter how tired you may be. If they devs don't want people delaying for that long, to set up a ganking fleet, then they have to make that clear to everyone, even people who don't use the forums, and they need to design the game's mechanics around discouraging or preventing it.

I'd love to see those changes, by the way, but tribunals and attempts at shaming aren't going to get us there.

My question is, if you wanted to go to bed within minutes, why were you sailing around the open world in a L'Ocean, without an escort of any kind? That just seems like the kind of behavior that maximizes your chances of having to stay up late.

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14 minutes ago, greybuscat said:

At risk of incurring the wrath of my clan lead 😉, I have to agree that this is a NA mechanic problem, not a griefing problem.

If the intent was to fight and sink you, delaying you for 20 minutes is definitely annoying, but it's not griefing in the sense that any other community uses the word. Griefing is an attempt to ruin the game for you. Fighting is the game.

The fact that the fight and chase dragged on for three hours is immaterial because a fight is definitely not griefing, no matter how tired you may be. If they devs don't want people delaying for that long, to set up a ganking fleet, then they have to make that clear to everyone, even people who don't use the forums, and they need to design the game's mechanics around discouraging or preventing it.

I'd love to see those changes, by the way, but tribunals and attempts at shaming aren't going to get us there.

My question is, if you wanted to go to bed within minutes, why were you sailing around the open world in a L'Ocean, without an escort of any kind? That just seems like the kind of behavior that maximizes your chances of having to stay up late.

Said it best.

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3 hours ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

Ok... double invisibility would work but not "insta close" battles. Or 2 minutes "can't join sitting in port bro, sorry". ?

Timer won't change anything. They can still camp your battle with f11 cords. 

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If any of you played the testbed, you will have noticed that it spawned you back into the OW at a different and distant spot from where you entered.  I have no idea if this was intended, but if it carries over to the regular servers ( @admin), it would help with this problem.  Add a little extra to the timer and a lot of problems would be solved.

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8 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

Kiting with no intention to fight is defined as griefing and illegal in NA. That's breaking the game rules, glad that Gregory has reported that.

 

7 hours ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

10 minutes of my life? No. I lost 3 hours and went to bed at 3am rather than my usual midnight. Had the Requin not tagged me, I would have logged out in OW which is what I was doing when I saw him coming.

I believe the devs have said that it is griefing and illegal. That's why I'm here. It wouldn't be an invalid tactic if there wasn't OW/Battle time dispersion but there is.

Not to play the devils advocate here, because I basically believe this is griefing, but couldn't the case be argued as a tactical delay with the intent on fighting with greater numbers once they got up to the battlesite? - I.e. the le requin delaying the L'Oceans escape due to other reasons than a denial of gameplay..

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lol take a L'Ocean to enemy waters to kill noobie players then cry when they stall you to fight 

P.S love the griefing troll story 

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2 minutes ago, Gizbo said:

lol take a L'Ocean to enemy waters to kill noobie players then cry when they stall you to fight

noobs cant afford 1st or 2nd rates. Every other ship can run away easily.

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12 minutes ago, Gizbo said:

lol take a L'Ocean to enemy waters to kill noobie players then cry when they stall you to fight 

P.S love the griefing troll story 

I don't believe any of us Dutch have accused Gregory of sealclubbing or targeting newbies. He has always been known to be an honorable player.

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2 hours ago, greybuscat said:

At risk of incurring the wrath of my clan lead 😉, I have to agree that this is a NA mechanic problem, not a griefing problem.

If the intent was to fight and sink you, delaying you for 20 minutes is definitely annoying, but it's not griefing in the sense that any other community uses the word. Griefing is an attempt to ruin the game for you. Fighting is the game.

The fact that the fight and chase dragged on for three hours is immaterial because a fight is definitely not griefing, no matter how tired you may be. If they devs don't want people delaying for that long, to set up a ganking fleet, then they have to make that clear to everyone, even people who don't use the forums, and they need to design the game's mechanics around discouraging or preventing it.

I'd love to see those changes, by the way, but tribunals and attempts at shaming aren't going to get us there.

My question is, if you wanted to go to bed within minutes, why were you sailing around the open world in a L'Ocean, without an escort of any kind? That just seems like the kind of behavior that maximizes your chances of having to stay up late.

This tribunal is not being brought for the hours I spent, that was just a statement of fact of the consequences of the rules being broken.

This is tribunal because this fellow stated that he had no intention of fighting me, tagged and kept me in battle so his mates could come from Willemstad. If you want to go down the route of accuracy how is he able to communicate with a port miles away and immediately 1st rates come out without any leaving dock preparation (surely crew are on sure doing more interesting things) and then able to relay co-ordinates precisely.

Griefing is tagging with intention of not fighting. He didn't even in the other battles as he escaped after his mate got sunk and he was dismasted.

Had his mates come across me in OW and tagged me I'd not be here, that's happened plenty of times. It's annoying 'cus you want to leave but that's part and parcel of NA. Try and stay on topic please, this tribunal has been made with the intention of highlighting that Dbl 00 Buck broke rules in the initial engagement. My wisdom in sailing around willy nilly in an Ocean is besides the point, it's not against the rules to do it, it is to tag someone to keep them in battle with no intention of fighting either in that engagement or any other. I wouldn't describe anything that he did throughout these three hours as fighting because he stayed well back in the second then left.

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If it was late and you planned on going to bed why would you sail a L'Ocean into dutch waters and taunt them?

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7 hours ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

This tribunal is not being brought for the hours I spent, that was just a statement of fact of the consequences of the rules being broken.

This is tribunal because this fellow stated that he had no intention of fighting me, tagged and kept me in battle so his mates could come from Willemstad. If you want to go down the route of accuracy how is he able to communicate with a port miles away and immediately 1st rates come out without any leaving dock preparation (surely crew are on sure doing more interesting things) and then able to relay co-ordinates precisely.

Griefing is tagging with intention of not fighting. He didn't even in the other battles as he escaped after his mate got sunk and he was dismasted.

Had his mates come across me in OW and tagged me I'd not be here, that's happened plenty of times. It's annoying 'cus you want to leave but that's part and parcel of NA. Try and stay on topic please, this tribunal has been made with the intention of highlighting that Dbl 00 Buck broke rules in the initial engagement. My wisdom in sailing around willy nilly in an Ocean is besides the point, it's not against the rules to do it, it is to tag someone to keep them in battle with no intention of fighting either in that engagement or any other. I wouldn't describe anything that he did throughout these three hours as fighting because he stayed well back in the second then left.

But regardless of what they said, they did intend to fight you with an allied fleet. Their later behavior is shameful, but doesn't seem relevant to their overall role as a tagger. Just because someone is a screw up or a coward, that doesn't mean they were trying to sabotage your ability to enjoy or play the game. Intent matters if you're going to label them like this.

If the devs have said this specific behavior is forbidden, then that's fine and you are very much in the right, but it's important to draw a distinction between keeping you in one place for a strategic advantage, and keeping you in one place because "gently caress you." Calling it "griefing" feels like equivocation to me, and muddies the waters.

As far as being "off-topic" is concerned, I only drew attention to information that you decided to share in the first place. I didn't exactly tear into you over it or call you a crybaby or anything.

 

EDIT: To clarify, I define "griefing" in the tribunal sense the way admin has defined it here: In terms of deliberate consistent griefing like tagging a player 3 times in a row and keeping him in battle for all duration without any desire to fight - we have warned captains in the past and will continue to do so.

If the devs are using a less strict definition and punishing captains based on that, I'm willing to concede the point, but it should be up to them to define it, not someone personally invested in the outcome of the tribunal. In that instance, it should be more clearly explained for all players, including those who do not use the forums, as it isn't behavior that is obviously wrong. But that, of course, is outside the scope of this discussion.

Edited by greybuscat
Elaboration

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Is subject to case by case, really.

Let me ask you this - you are in a trader convoy and you counter-tag. You have absolutely no desire to fight. Is it griefing ?

You make a bad tag ( ow translation can sometimes place you in the wrong spot ). Is it griefing ?

You are an advance scout frigate for the "home fleet". You manage to tag the slower rear-guard of the enemy fleet with the intentions of keeping them in combat until the bulk of the fleet arrives ( and hope the enemy fleet turns back to engage ). Is it griefing ?

Take a good look to your gameplay after you logoff, what went wrong, what you did good, where did you "subvert" the intended gameplay to suit you ? What did the enemy do to suit them ? What makes it different ? 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

I have to disagree for the simply reason that the time difference in battle and outside makes such tactics fundamentally unfair for those in the battle instance.

Hell, I'd be down with doubling the invisibility timer to prevent it happening so that ships can escape well over the horizon. Counter-ganking is cancer and reduces content because people just can't be arsed to go out raiding knowing this will happen.

There have to be a balance. What about those guys that just swoop in in there 15,5 kn ship kills  a trader ore a carebear player. How will you stop that from happen, if you remove all posibility to get a player in to a fight, Ore they should just be left to there own fait. 

I can live with totaly destroy the posibility to stop those speedboats. But my impression is that most of the players would disagree on that option. But who knows it might be what bring more players in the game. But should we then just not go all in and remove it all, safezones, reinforcement and so on?

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1 hour ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

Is subject to case by case, really.

Let me ask you this - you are in a trader convoy and you counter-tag. You have absolutely no desire to fight. Is it griefing ?

You make a bad tag ( ow translation can sometimes place you in the wrong spot ). Is it griefing ?

You are an advance scout frigate for the "home fleet". You manage to tag the slower rear-guard of the enemy fleet with the intentions of keeping them in combat until the bulk of the fleet arrives ( and hope the enemy fleet turns back to engage ). Is it griefing ?

Take a good look to your gameplay after you logoff, what went wrong, what you did good, where did you "subvert" the intended gameplay to suit you ? What did the enemy do to suit them ? What makes it different ? 

 

 

to come back to this particular incident.

at the moment the "home fleet" arrived at the sword the timer shut down the battle already

so now we are griefed by a timer.(battle closed) 

but we waited... and did not complain ...

we waited 15 minutes (5 more than the so-called wasted time of Gregor) and went back to port because

"someone"(greg) has to make a beauty sleep. 

it is what it is ...and nothing more

Edited by Thonys
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13 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

If any of you played the testbed, you will have noticed that it spawned you back into the OW at a different and distant spot from where you entered.  I have no idea if this was intended, but if it carries over to the regular servers ( @admin), it would help with this problem.  Add a little extra to the timer and a lot of problems would be solved.

It will fix the escape. But think most of the thing made with battles was because ppl complained about not being able to protect there wathers. My guess is, if it will be the same again(was before my time has to be said), there will be a shit storm on the forum. Allready it is close to impossible to catch those 15,5 kn ships. But if we want to reward the brave, remove all that limits fights. But stay firm, drop the complaints on farming noobs. Either we get a hardcore game, ore we go softcore where we try to balance things.  I prefere the hardcore version.

 

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