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Hey,

everytime when we have a fresh start because of a wipe or testserver it reminds me that trading is actually interesting and the reason why I bought this game initially.

 

Its fun to trade with other players, check what ressources are needed and valueable and based on that creating a effective production. When we had to craft cannons me and @rediii and @Palatinose were the first to sell them for a few days and it was a worthwhile effort.

 

2 days or so later the economy is already ruined because people can farm much more money with trading ressources in a completely non interactive and in my opinion very boring and counterproductive way. That makes you feel like a retard if you actually harvest ressources or craft stuff and try to sell it.

 

Some changes which would make the economy more interesting:

  •  remove all trading goods, they destroy any interaction between players which is why trading right now is braindead afk sailing the same routes over and over
  •  force players to specialize. Why are players so insane talents who can build lineships, shallow ships and all kind of cannons? If every player can only craft some parts playerinteraction will be promoted much more
  • I hate afk sailing with a passion so I would like to have all necessary ressources close around the capital. All other ports should be used for RvR purposes (especially if war borders are coming back), for outposts to be closer to enemies and to create safer PvE areas, NOT for 2 hour long ressource hauling.

Also I think people should fight for better access to ressources. Lord protector should give the player cheaper production cost of a random product in that port. That would mean more reasons to capture ports and also active gameplay within the nation will be rewarded.

 

 

The static ressource spawning system is very poor aswell, but I dont think this can be changed anymore in this game.

 

 

Discuss

Edited by Jon Snow lets go
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11 minutes ago, Jon Snow lets go said:

I would like to have all necessary ressources close around the capital

 This is one of the reasons why people don't leave safezones.

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4 minutes ago, Cabral said:

 This is one of the reasons why people don't leave safezones.

Ganking traders is no challenge anyways so I dont care too much if they stay inside or close to the safezone. PvE missions got changed on testserver so maybe that will force more people in warships out of the zone.

Warships fight in battles, traders fight in ports.

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3 minutes ago, Jon Snow lets go said:

When we had to craft cannons me and @rediii and @Palatinose were the first to sell them for a few days and it was a worthwhile effort.

I did the same during austerity patch. I didn't get rich fast as I found entertainment in underbidding people who wanted fast cash.

I'm told we had a marked player drop during that time when the economy made sense. I believe admin commented on it but can't recall exactly. I think such an eco setup is sensitive to player numbers at least.

I was ok with austerity patch as getting my cash by making stuff is better than grinding bots. Most people might not agree and feel throttled by a slow moving economy?

20 minutes ago, Jon Snow lets go said:

Also I think people should fight for better access to ressources

About 10% of the player base does that. The intention is good and makes sense, but we might have a case where too many of the remaining 90% group gives up if too much depends on RvR. I suppose we'd have a similar challenge if we made the game completely clan based. 

I dunno, I'm trying to understand these things.

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Asymmetrical warfare relies on the lesser navy to deny and steal what they need. The more powerful to conquer what they can.

Balance is achieved by how important the ports are when compared to the cargo being transported.

It is not that the lesser navy will become big by raiding. It is that they will deny the more powerful one a careless approach to losses.

Of course for the casual players that seeks fight for the fight only without any other concern this is of no concern. But rules are made for an entire playerbase.

This is a tug of war. We have no map resets nor resource wipes. Our wargame never ends.

As we see when everyone has everything it is the players that make the balance by changing nations every 30 days and not a fluid economy that fuels war that fuels economy.

Don't know. Complicated "needs" and "wants".

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I think Trade goods are fine, but we have TOO MANY trade goods. something like 5-7 different trade goods for each nation, sometimes even more?

I firstly would support getting rid of the Trade Goods. If that is not to happen then Trading Missions should come back in some way to allow for traders to move trade goods to different ports, gain a trade mission reward AND the port they have to "sell" it to would also consume the good, even if it doesn't normally do so. It could allow for more routes to be created, more Trading activity in different areas.

I think a real problem happens to be that players just hoard all their resources and goods instead of placing them on the market, BECAUSE they are limited to extracting them from buildings due to Labor Hours. If a player was to always be able to extract resources without having to wait for a mechanic limited by generation then I feel we would all see an increase to buying and selling of resources.

the Admin mentioned they would be interested in dropping Labor Hours altogether and instead having players pay workers in doubloons (the gold coins) to take resources from buildings and I think that would go well to enhance our markets, our crafting, and our trading of resources.

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39 minutes ago, Cabral said:

 This is one of the reasons why people don't leave safezones.

Where do you guys dream up this mythical "safezone" nonsense.  Even in a nation that actually has reinforcement zones I can't even go between neighboring ports without leaving the zones, and some other nations with contiguous zones get invaded so frequently by trolls it's a wonder that anyone even undocks from port. 

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Perhaps trade goods would not be so poisonous for you if the profit from them was more modest.  These trade goods could allow casual players a chance to play the game without engaging with the deeper levels of PvP symbiotic trading.  The big profit should be in PvP trade, but PvE trade is still important.

I like your ideas of increasing business interactions between players.  Not sure if it is possible to force us into it, as long as players have an Alt option, that allows everyone to operate indepenently.

I whole heartedly disagree with you about locating all necessary resources near capitals.  This change would weaken specialization.   Allow me to gather the resources you need and deliver it to you.  You hate sailing and I enjoy it.  Distribution of resources allows me opportunity to enjoy the game AND trade with you.

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Fighting over resources?  Tried it, now everyone has 2-3 alts as a result. Specializations is a good idea, but the crafting system would need to be overhauled as a result.  Too much work for this dev team obviously.  I would really like to see permanent specializations for certain ship types.  Only lineship crafters can make the big boy ships in very deep ports      something like that.

Cutting out trade goods.  Good way to kill what remains the PVE/Econ community and subsequent traders on the water.  IRL 90% of the ships on the water during this time period were merchants.  Fill the game with only PVPers and people quit.  Sharks seldom like fighting other sharks.

More resources near the capitals?  I thought we wanted to get players out of the safe zones?

Removing trade goods and centralizing resources around capitals will pretty much kill any incentive for players to go out and cap ports.  

----
Fact of the matter is that PVPers are trying to force this game into an image that best suits them.  This is the wrong approach.  Create a game where PVE/Carebear types enjoy playing that does not require 3 hours of hauling for an RVR system most of them don't give a shit about and maybe they'll stick around.  More fish in the game = happy sharks.

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Sry @Jon Snow lets go as long as alts are allowed nearly all ideas to create a player based econ are simply superfluous. 

Personally I would support ideas to incentify player interaction on a non-combat level as it was the coolest time we had in game, when we all were poor and everything meant something. Though this was a time when many casuals dropped out, as it was very difficult for a solo player to compete with organized clans. By fueling mission rewards and trade rewards the chances for the non-full-time players were somewhat evened (though ofc it's pretty obvious that by magically pumping money in a market prizes don't stabalize at a low but at an adequately high level). In combination with euro traders and a decreasing amount of players people are able to pump out ships of their shipyards like crazy and the only sense of trading or missions is to grind money for some upgrades to stay competetive (it's a feeling though mostly, not reality).

Player interactive econ is like a fully liberated market while what we have now is more or less a social market econ. It secures to a certain extent that every player is able to play some PvP, PvE and trading without having to invest hours into it. This is overall a good thing. 

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I can*t understand why all people always want to remove the Tradegoods. It would be more useful to complexity and content to give meaning to these goods. Of course this requires ideas and above all programming work. Ideas are lacking for me and other players, but I can't say what the programming resources of the devs look like.

Edited by Hellmuth von Mücke
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1 hour ago, Christendom said:

Fighting over resources?  Tried it, now everyone has 2-3 alts as a result. Specializations is a good idea, but the crafting system would need to be overhauled as a result.  Too much work for this dev team obviously.  I would really like to see permanent specializations for certain ship types.  Only lineship crafters can make the big boy ships in very deep ports      something like that.

There were few battles fought solely to deny resources, The Glorious 1st June and it's grain convoy, Chesaspeake Bay, which was so influencial in the loss of Britain's American Colonies, Aboukir Bay, which broke Napoleon Bonaparte's  supply route to Egypt. Yet Commerce protection was, by default, the reason that The Royal Navy was such a huge organisation (and is today, why The United States Navy is far bigger than actually needs to be, if it were simply a national defence force). 

Chatham Naval Dockyard produced a wide variety of ships ranging from Cutters to HMS Victory, as well as Mercantile vessels in peacetime, a tradition carried on by John Clyde,  (The Queen Elizabeth/Mary HMS Hood, Harland and Wolfe Titanic, Olympic, Britannic, HMS Belfast among many others) so they were not especially specialised, unlike, Vosper and Supermarine (the same company that designed seaplanes for the Schneider cup and the Spitfire fighter) who built MTB's, MGB's  and patrol craft. 

Cutting out trade goods.  Good way to kill what remains the PVE/Econ community and subsequent traders on the water.  IRL 90% of the ships on the water during this time period were merchants.  Fill the game with only PVPers and people quit.  Sharks seldom like fighting other sharks.

I think when the 'Sharks' fought the 'Sharks' there was generally a motive behind it, breaking a blockade, protecting trade routes ect. Whether it was John Paul Jones and his French built fleet at Flamborough Head or Lutjens at the Denmark Strait, the Royal Navy wanted to protect Mercantile shipping, and, while both battles were victories for America and Germany respectively, the Royal Navy ultimately achieved it's aim, albeit, at a heavy price both for themselves and the Merchant Navy and help from the considerably smaller U.S. Atlantic Fleet.

More resources near the capitals?  I thought we wanted to get players out of the safe zones?

Removing trade goods and centralizing resources around capitals will pretty much kill any incentive for players to go out and cap ports.  

There is, I think, no reason why both cannot be achieved, The concept of 'specialised' resources in distant ports was sound, I think, it was not well executed, the resources were undervalued, and, there was not really sufficient incentive to take and hold ports with such resources, only one port, Cartagena, has ever maintained interest in that regard, unfortunately the usage of alt's does, I think, negate tactical and strategic efforts with regard to such campaigns. There have been a few players who have successfully taken on the role of 'commerce raider' in game, Both Metatastic Disease and Alucard have had some success in that role, to the point where we had a few 'Graf Spee' style chases that covered a wide area and gave hours of content trying to end both Captain's 'illustrious careers' among the mercantile marine in the waters off of Belize and points East.  

----
Fact of the matter is that PVPers are trying to force this game into an image that best suits them.  This is the wrong approach.  Create a game where PVE/Carebear types enjoy playing that does not require 3 hours of hauling for an RVR system most of them don't give a shit about and maybe they'll stick around.  More fish in the game = happy sharks.

I agree, give the Merchants a bigger role, they attract combat, in convoy or individual sailings, from both Pirates and national navy's, had Lutjen's Bismark and Prinz Eugen got into the sea-lanes as Scharnhorst and Gniesenau did under  both Lutjens and Marschall, wholesale massacres of convoys would have prevailed for a while, which, in conjunction with the U-boat arm could have resulted in a different end to the battle for the Atlantic Ocean. I think that a combination of commerce raiding, selective port battles for major ports, which, in and of itself requires the taking of less important ports to make the big battles happen, and area denial would bring about a greater sense of satisfaction than aimless PVP and RVR or chance encounters for the sake of shooting the guns. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, jodgi said:

I did the same during austerity patch. I didn't get rich fast as I found entertainment in underbidding people who wanted fast cash.

I'm told we had a marked player drop during that time when the economy made sense. I believe admin commented on it but can't recall exactly. I think such an eco setup is sensitive to player numbers at least.

I was ok with austerity patch as getting my cash by making stuff is better than grinding bots. Most people might not agree and feel throttled by a slow moving economy?

Yeah exactly it was fun until everyone realised how easy it is to make money in a completely non-interactive way. I didnt meant by removing tradegoods to go back to austerity patch, ships were way too expensive and killed a lot of the playerbase.

Would be nice to have something like this:

  • As a PvE player: so some missions and buy new ships
  • as a trader: buy stuff cheap somewhere and sell where its needed
  • as a crafter: mine some specific ressources which are most needed atm, sell them/trade with others to craft complete ships

Everyone is interacting, so beautiful. But maybe we need trade goods because there is not enough demand otherwise and maybe clans are destroying any balance which would allow single players to be able to play comfortable....

5 hours ago, Macjimm said:

I whole heartedly disagree with you about locating all necessary resources near capitals.  This change would weaken specialization.   Allow me to gather the resources you need and deliver it to you.  You hate sailing and I enjoy it.  Distribution of resources allows me opportunity to enjoy the game AND trade with you.

Isnt this the case already for most stuff? Everything you need except woods are in uncapturable area or very close to the capital for most nations. Ressources can be far away if there are enough people like you interested in hauling goods. Do we have enough who enjoy hauling goods for 1 hour or so?

1 hour ago, Hellmuth von Mücke said:

I can*t understand why all people always want to remove the Tradegoods.

Because they are boring. But maybe they shouldnt be removed, but instead the trading profit should be lowered so that its worth to trade with "productive" goods if there is demand.

1 hour ago, Palatinose said:

Player interactive econ is like a fully liberated market while what we have now is more or less a social market econ. It secures to a certain extent that every player is able to play some PvP, PvE and trading without having to invest hours into it. This is overall a good thing. 

Agree with the rest, but that sounds wrong to me. A broken economy is bad. If you dont want to deal with the economy or have no clue yet you should be able to do PvE just fine with similar effectiveness.

6 hours ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

Asymmetrical warfare relies on the lesser navy to deny and steal what they need.

Dont think thats happening sadly. In my experiecnce most traders do their important trades at off hours or at routes where they rarely meet anyone. Also upgrades can be teleported.

Edited by Jon Snow lets go
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3 hours ago, Hellmuth von Mücke said:

I can*t understand why all people always want to remove the Tradegoods. It would be more useful to complexity and content to give meaning to these goods. Of course this requires ideas and above all programming work. Ideas are lacking for me and other players, but I can't say what the programming resources of the devs look like.

It would add to the wider economy significantly, if many of the trade goods had a purpose other than just BUY/SELL > PROFIT.

Example -

The infamous "Textile Machinery"

1. Sneak one in to the port in which you have a workshop. Right-click on the Textile Machinery, menu pops up with an option to "send to workshop". Each textile machine added to workshop (up to say 10 max), provides a percentage reduction in labour cost of all things to do with sail making. Once the Textile machine has been sent to workshop, it can't be retrieved as a trade good.

2. This would convert the textile machines into useful commodities that have a direct relationship to crafting, and thus buying and selling of items usable in ships.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Ortac said:

It would add to the wider economy significantly, if many of the trade goods had a purpose other than just BUY/SELL > PROFIT.

Example -

The infamous "Textile Machinery"

1. Sneak one in to the port in which you have a workshop. Right-click on the Textile Machinery, menu pops up with an option to "send to workshop". Each textile machine added to workshop (up to say 10 max), provides a percentage reduction in labour cost of all things to do with sail making. Once the Textile machine has been sent to workshop, it can't be retrieved as a trade good.

2. This would convert the textile machines into useful commodities that have a direct relationship to crafting, and thus buying and selling of items usable in ships.

 

 

 

This gets at the problem of "trade goods" and why their predominance leads to some mindless money-grinding mechanics.  They are strictly money-in / money-out and are a sideline to the player-to-player economy.

Probably ought to be a few of them because some people like that.  But I would much rather most of them had some actual connection to what goes on inside the ports.  As a merchant I would much rather be moving stuff that someone else has an actual use for.

Which upgrades would if they were in the hold where they belonged and not magic-wanded about the map as if they had no mass.

 

Edited by John Jacob Astor

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Atm the problem with trading is that it's basically giving every player that cares to afk sail for an hour or two a printing press. Need gold? - Just print it yourself. 

I disagree that traders shouldn't be attacked in game. The issue of the printing press is that there is no moneysink and little to no risk to traders. - Kill 'em all is what I say and force them to appreciate what they have. 

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7 minutes ago, Lars Kjaer said:

little to no risk to traders.

My experience of this as a single account player is rather different from your perception of the matter.

7 minutes ago, Lars Kjaer said:

- Kill 'em all is what I say and force them to appreciate what they have. 

Appreciation won't be the end result.

We will find other things to do and you can have Naval Action all to yourself.

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20 minutes ago, John Jacob Astor said:

My experience of this as a single account player is rather different from your perception of the matter.

Appreciation won't be the end result.

We will find other things to do and you can have Naval Action all to yourself.

Np if you're not doing anything but trading then you're not exactly of any gameplay value to me..

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Privateering was probably over 90% of ship actions in the area in this time period.  Why would you even have  pyrates in the game if you don’t think traders should be be privateering and pyracy in game?  

For those of us who don’t really care for RVR, privateering is the game-play of choice.  

Its much easier to take what you need from the enemy than it is to spend hours tracking down materials and transporting them.  Do I still have to sometimes?  Absolutely.  Do I think people should be able to take my stuff?  Absolutely.  

Nuts the Caribbean in the 18th/19th century. 

Life SHOULD be hard.  

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8 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Privateering was probably over 90% of ship actions in the area in this time period.  Why would you even have  pyrates in the game if you don’t think traders should be be privateering and pyracy in game?  

For those of us who don’t really care for RVR, privateering is the game-play of choice.  

Its much easier to take what you need from the enemy than it is to spend hours tracking down materials and transporting them.  Do I still have to sometimes?  Absolutely.  Do I think people should be able to take my stuff?  Absolutely.  

Nuts the Caribbean in the 18th/19th century. 

Life SHOULD be hard.  

Not suggesting life should be easy.

But if privateering is 90% of the game pretty soon everybody is privateers.  All hunters and no targets but other hunters and the AI.

If that's what it looks like after the economy rework that's fine.

But just not my game.

Edited by John Jacob Astor
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2 minutes ago, John Jacob Astor said:

Not suggesting life should be easy.

But if privateering is 90% of the game pretty soon everybody is privateers.  All hunters and no targets but other hunters and the AI.

If that's what it looks like after the economy rework that's fine.

But just not my game.

Agreed.  And that’s why there needs to be mechanics that provide for a healthy mix of gameplays. 

A shipping magnate should be equally as viable as a swarthy pirate (and a dashing young naval hero for that matter).

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24 minutes ago, John Jacob Astor said:

Not suggesting life should be easy.

But if privateering is 90% of the game pretty soon everybody is privateers.  All hunters and no targets but other hunters and the AI.

If that's what it looks like after the economy rework that's fine.

But just not my game.

If people don't like the PvP gameplay then there's plenty of room in the PvE server.. Besides - you can trade with almost no risk if you just avoid the main traderoutes, ofc the profit would be smaller but that's the balancing part. 

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15 minutes ago, Lars Kjaer said:

If people don't like the PvP gameplay then there's plenty of room in the PvE server.. Besides - you can trade with almost no risk if you just avoid the main traderoutes, ofc the profit would be smaller but that's the balancing part. 

If you are talking about the mindless movement of dropped trade goods to a consumption port you are correct.

But if you are talking about the player-to-player contract economy that is another matter entirely.  It's a little difficult to avoid the economic chokepoints created by the inability to see contract activity without visiting a port.

But this is clearly not something you are interested in so why are you even engaging about it?

Edited by John Jacob Astor
typo

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Buildings at the end of the day do more harm than good because people(Alts) can make most goods locally and not look for other places in the map. Without buildings you will either have to many or to few resources on the server depending on popularity and its less a player driven economy. The thing is that I don't know if it should be player driven. The fact people can make ships in safezones is bad.

I don't get why a port can produce a billion tons for fir logs a day if enough players have buildings there anyway.....The fact the players  have been forced out of the game by zones and no way to attack traders as a living is unacceptable in an age of sail game. 

If you sail for 5 hours in naval action there is a 1% chance of spotting a trader imo. 

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I would like to see a system where a port could grow larger and more useful the more it was traded with. So as ports are traded with they would gain the ability to build higher level buildings. Ideally trade goods would be a useful thing that people needed and would buy from other players not just a magic money machine.

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