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Retag griefing


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1 minute ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

Okay, invisibility, no speed boost, 3 minutes ?

I will be untouchable, but is not a bad proposition.

Invisibility with speed boost for same 3 minutes ? Man... is almost the same as exit to port. ;) 

you should be untouchable after leaving a battle when noone joined it during the 3 minute jointimer

you don't like teleport to port, but like "teleport" in OW to the exact battle pos.. ?

don't provide revenge squads content. they're lazy.

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7 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

Okay, invisibility, no speed boost, 3 minutes ?

I will be untouchable, but is not a bad proposition.

Invisibility with speed boost for same 3 minutes ? Man... is almost the same as exit to port. ;) 

We used to have exit to port, and when we did, there was no hours of chain tagging people. Yes, people got away, but it was not game crippling and forced the aggressors to be competent enough to nab their prey in one instance, not 4 or 10, etc. the current situation promotes incompetence as well as griefs the victim.

since I returned to game its apparent that no one knows how to tag anymore, they take the first tag they get regardless of positioning. 

Edited by Sir Malachy Karrde
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11 minutes ago, Sir Malachy Karrde said:

We used to have exit to port, and when we did, there was no hours of chain tagging people. Yes, people got away, but it was not game crippling and forced the aggressors to be competent enough to nab their prey in one instance, not 4 or 10, etc. the current situation promotes incompetence as well as griefs the victim.

since I returned to game its apparent that no one knows how to tag anymore, they take the first tag they get regardless of positioning. 

Many hated the exit to port feature and I don't think we should change the game mechanics because you want to log off at nation capitals. However, many have suggested longer invisibility timers and I can support that idea.

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32 minutes ago, Liq said:

you should be untouchable after leaving a battle when noone joined it during the 3 minute jointimer

you don't like teleport to port, but like "teleport" in OW to the exact battle pos.. ?

don't provide revenge squads content. they're lazy.

I don't like either. Actually I loathe teleports of any kind. Still can't think of anything ... level for the issue.

 

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11 minutes ago, Capn Rocko said:

Many hated the exit to port feature and I don't think we should change the game mechanics because you want to log off at nation capitals. However, many have suggested longer invisibility timers and I can support that idea.

Yeah the gankers detested it lol. I don't care how they solve chain tagging just that it gets solved

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33 minutes ago, Sir Malachy Karrde said:

We used to have exit to port, and when we did, there was no hours of chain tagging people. Yes, people got away, but it was not game crippling and forced the aggressors to be competent enough to nab their prey in one instance, not 4 or 10, etc. the current situation promotes incompetence as well as griefs the victim.

since I returned to game its apparent that no one knows how to tag anymore, they take the first tag they get regardless of positioning. 

Most people tag at the first available because 90+% of people only sail 2 feet from the coast between friendly ports....  

If you dont tag them immediately, then the either just run into town or anchor under a square fort.

No judgement.  Just giving my personal experiences.

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33 minutes ago, Sir Malachy Karrde said:

We used to have exit to port, and when we did, there was no hours of chain tagging people. Yes, people got away, but it was not game crippling and forced the aggressors to be competent enough to nab their prey in one instance, not 4 or 10, etc. the current situation promotes incompetence as well as griefs the victim.

since I returned to game its apparent that no one knows how to tag anymore, they take the first tag they get regardless of positioning. 

Yeah, quality has been regressing, grant you that.

The reliance on subsequent tags rather than the full 90 minutes appropriate chase is... rampant.

( plus any good captain worth its salt know when he will or not catch up after the first wind rotation... )

15 minutes battle .. " maybe we should retag outside?!".... is weak...

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2 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

I don't like either. Actually I loathe teleports of any kind. Still can't think of anything ... level for the issue.

 

I was always partial to the "RNG jettisoned into the OW somewhere within 20k of where the instance was" theory.  

That way SOME will get away, SOME wont...  its random and you cant bitch about anything except your luck...  (Unless RNGeezus hates you like he hates my shipbuilder.)

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2 minutes ago, Capn Rocko said:

Admin detested it. Don't go to capitals if you want a fair fight or want to log out. Simple 

Its not just capitols though.  I was nowhere near a green zone the other day.  tagged a herc with a trader in fleet, fought a good battle and when I came out, there was 4 of his friends waiting for me.  I got away, but the issue still exists.  They should not have been sitting there in perfect position to grab me after 45mins in battle.

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This is a limitation of instanced combat that's separate from the rest of the world.  You can't really fix it, you will create a different problem.

I understand that chain tagging someone just to grief them is a problem, but it seems these guys were not trying to grief, they were just not very good at executing a proper tag and sinking the guy.

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2 hours ago, Sir Malachy Karrde said:

Again, this has nothing to do with the ship, I didnt even lose the ship I thought I had lost. I lost the crap one because I had apparently clicked the wrong trinc at aves before I left. The issue is and always was the sheer amount of time they wasted chain tagging me. They had two ships that weren't fast enough to catch me but fast enough to tag and keep me in battle and it took them over 3 hours to find one that could catch me. There is no excuse for chain tagging someone. There is no excuse for wasting a persons time like that. And surrendering as an option is laughable. A player of any game should not ever be forced to give up an item to a group of incompetent and unprepared gankers just so that he can avoid having his time deliberately wasted. There are a lot of games that are far more hardcore than this one and none of them allow time griefing. This game is hardly hardcore, a truly hardcore game would not have instanced battle and cheesy rules of engagements. A hardcore age of sail game would have an open world where you sailed at normal speeds, variable wind strength and nothing but line of sight communication. That would be hardcore. What we have is a cheesy arcade with poorly implemented rules of engagement.

im trying to be constructive and foster improved game play and improved player retention. You sir, just want to continue griefing as usual. 

There have been a idea up about you loose all you have gained since you sailed out of port, But you then could teleport to a habor. That would solve your problem .

The issue is from witch side you look at it. You think if you as a hunter have to spend 4 hours to get away, you need a better advantage. The other side is if you have to spend 4 hours to chase Down a guy, He allready have to big an advantage. You say they waisted 4 hours og your time chasing you. You could also turn it around and say you waisted 4 hours of there time running insted of stay and fight . All depend on your perspective. But if we make a game where the attacker get all advantages, then I for sure belive we will loose plsyers

How many traders get away, think they die more often then they survive. Maybe they also should have a better chance. It is all up to witch side you want to favor. I think it with all that is part of a Hunt, it is resonably balanced. 

Edited by staun
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25 minutes ago, Le Raf Boom said:

This is a limitation of instanced combat that's separate from the rest of the world.  You can't really fix it, you will create a different problem.

I understand that chain tagging someone just to grief them is a problem, but it seems these guys were not trying to grief, they were just not very good at executing a proper tag and sinking the guy.

One of them admitted they kept at it after I chatted with them. Apparently having a friendly conversation was an excuse to keep harassing me. whether they were ultimately successful or not, they still wasted hours of my time in boredom and I had zero ability to prevent being retagged over and over. Everyone admits that it's a problem, what we are here to do is find a solution. Other games have instances too and have found a way to prevent time griefing.

 

8 minutes ago, staun said:

There have been a idea up about you loose all you have gained since you sailed out of port, But you then could teleport to a habor. That would solve your problem .

The issue is from witch side you look at it. You think if you as a hunter have to spend 4 hours to get away, you need a better advantage. The other side is if you have to spend 4 hours to chase Down a guy, He allready have to big an advantage.

How many traders get away, think they die more often then they survive. Maybe they also should have a better chance. It is all up to witch side you want to favor. I think it with all that is part of a Hunt, it is resonably balanced. 

I disagree and so do many others. It's fine if you are the one griefing folks, it's not so fine when you are on the receiving end. Surrender is not an acceptable option to stop griefing. That merely encourages the bad behavior.

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Honestly, the event that spawned this discussion was a 1 hour 48 minute chase, with 2 tags. This guy was caught at our Capitol by a different group, got away clean, was caught by ORCA and DNP about 2 hours later, still hunting our Capitol, and was killed.

Do 4 hour chases happen? Yes

Do they happen often? No

I think longer invisibility might be good, but not too much longer. 45 seconds or a minute at most.

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29 minutes ago, Sir Malachy Karrde said:

One of them admitted they kept at it after I chatted with them. Apparently having a friendly conversation was an excuse to keep harassing me.

What you would describe as a "friendly conversation" I would describe as smug assurances that you would get away, followed by high grade, triple refined salt when you saw one of us was almost a full knot faster than you. Also lies, many cheap and transparent lies.

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2 hours ago, Liq said:

Battles in reinforcment zone are open all the time for defenders. So no revenge fleet possible (or needed) there, especially when you can join anywhere in the battle with that huge join area possibility.

However, anything that is outside of that zone should be you see what you get alias 2-3 min join timer.

Solution is pretty simple...

  • Increase invisibility time after leaving a battle to a reasonable amount. Currently it's not of any use if the *revenge squad* outside has any brains.
  • Increase the "you cannot attack" timer (Can still get attacked!) after leaving a battle to a reasonable amount, something along the lines of 10-15 minutes.
    • No ninja jumping out of battles to attack a lone trader prey

That was also suggested like a year ago, but didnt see any comment on it (dev side)

And I cannot really see a downside of it.

I can agree to this partly - it should be the timer for 'you can't be attacked' that is increased. Make it 5 minutes.

I'd wager that would solve a number of problems that arise.

EDIT: continuing to read the thread ---

I think just increasing the invisibility timer, as hethwill and liq seem to agree on, would be good. I still think we should have the speed boost with it though.

Edited by Teutonic
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If the invisibility timer gets increased it should also work both ways. You can't be seen and you see nothing. You will have a bigger chance to get away, as you certainly earned it during the instance but you can also run into others if you are unlucky. And of course we can't position ourselves during the invisibility to jump onto the next poor fella if we don't see them.

Maybe we also have to think about roe's for traders that differ from warship only encounters.

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6 minutes ago, Cecil Selous said:

If the invisibility timer gets increased it should also work both ways. You can't be seen and you see nothing. You will have a bigger chance to get away, as you certainly earned it during the instance but you can also run into others if you are unlucky. And of course we can't position ourselves during the invisibility to jump onto the next poor fella if we don't see them.

Maybe we also have to think about roe's for traders that differ from warship only encounters.

You have to be able to see them, as you want to know what direction to evade in. 

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Right, it is a game of chance. But your invisibility timer is longer and you don't have to care about the wind. We have a group of players who don't want a free escape at all and we have a group who wants to escape once and for all if they did it in in the battle. So it is somehow a trade-off.

If we get a much longer timer and can see during it, then I can imagine that it is possible that we get problems back from early 2016. Getting attacked out of nowhere.

Edited by Cecil Selous
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- Remove loodsman and F11 coordinates

- RoE back to 2 minutes

- no invisibility on exit for all but - increase 20 seconds on turbospeed to the Attacked side only ( attacker doesn't benefit from it )

- add 60 seconds cannot be attacked over what we have now

It is a janky horrible way to do it, but is in my opinion fair for all of us and covers a prodigious amounts of situations including:

- sitting in port waiting for the battle

- rewards a glamourous escape ( takes skill sometimes )

- makes sure counter tags cannot be used to ensure a early escape

- makes sure attacker thinks well about first attack tag 

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9 minutes ago, Cecil Selous said:

Right, it is a game of chance. Your invisibility timer is longer and you don't have to care about the wind. We have a group of players who don't want a free escape at all and we have a group who wants to escape once and for all if they did it in in the battle. So it is somehow a trade-off.

If we get a much longer timer and can see during it, then I can imagine that it is possible that we get problems back from early 2016. Getting attacked out of nowhere.

Attack timer

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8 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Attack timer

Won't solve the problem when I have a slightly faster ship and sneak up on a trader during my 1 minute invisibility timer (If we still agree on a longer timer ;))out of a npc battle. Even after I become visible he has just a small chance to escape, no matter if the no attack timer is longer for me. I simply follow him.

If I wouldn't be invisible, then he could see and evade me and his chance to get away is higher. Of course not when I pop out right next to him. But this is the gamble part. Sneaking up during invisibility is just unfair.

The attack timer makes the gamble part for the invisible ship slightly safer in respect to the unlucky case that you sail right into an enemy fleet without knowing.

Edited by Cecil Selous
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4 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Sure.  If somebody sees you going into or out of a battle, they can jump you.  Or if they see an open battle, pile in.  That is not what we are discussing here.  We are talking about a prepared group who wait outside a battle or follow you from one battle to the next.  They cant catch you, but continue to tag and chase, tag and chase.  If it looks like I'm going to be chasing a guy for a long time, I just stop and move on, but some players insist on keeping the chase going.  Even without the realism argument, more than two hours of being chased is over the top.

If we want to talk about Ow PvP, it atleast to me make no sence to focus on part. When ever you change one part, it has an effect on all. I fear the what would happen if we give a free get away card, it just would make på stop try to fight the hunters. It that what we want. Ppl swoping in on speeed build ships. Kill a trader and Wupti, the are gone. Come back 5 min later and Wupti another easy kill.that is what happens if we get 2 min invisibility. Allready ppl are most time saying, that there is no need to waist hours try to get him. 

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