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rediii

Penetration gap of 18 pounders to 24 pounders

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Here is a pentable of all longcannons from 9 to 42 pounders.

Why is the gap between 18 and 24 pounders so large? It makes the 3rd rate WAY worse than the bellona.

 

Pound 250m Range     Difference
42 125  
32 114 11
24 106 8
18 94 12
12 87 7
9 80 7

 

I kinda understand the high jump from 32 to 42 pounders but why the high hump between 18 and 24 pounders?

 

Instead there could be a constant difference of 9mm at 250m making low calibres stronger aswell

Pounder 250m Distance pen Difference
42 125  
32 116 9
24 107 9
18 98 9
12 89 9
9 80 9
Edited by rediii
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that is grape and canister shot and not ball, right?

as far as I remember a post from @admin all cannons should pen pretty easy in real life. We have no real life simulation though and many shots bounce.

Also in real life ships didn't have HP and sank. It was more about shooting rigging and killing crew to lower morale and make them give up.

 

So in my oppinion pen values should be changed to fit the game 

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could be

please remind me to address this after the port ui patch. No time for this now.

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@rediii I read grape first instead of gap :D

difference in shot weight

difference between 4 and 6pd = 2,03 pounds

difference between 6pd and 9pd = 3,04 pounds

difference between 9pd and 12pd = 3,11 pound

difference between 12pd and 18pd = 6,05 pounds

difference between 18pd and 24 pd = 6 pounds

difference between 24pd and 32 pd = 8,1 pounds

difference between 32pd and 42 pd = 10,1 pounds

Edited by z4ys
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1 minute ago, z4ys said:

@rediii I read grape first instead of gap :D

difference in shot weight

difference between 4 and 6pd = 2,03 pounds

difference between 6pd and 9pd = 3,04 pounds

difference between 9pd and 12pd = 3,11 pound

difference between 12pd and 18pd = 6,05 pounds

difference between 18pd and 24 pd = 6 pounds

So if we want to go the simulation way the difference should be between 12 and 18 pounders which would kinda make sense, but would it be good for the bellepoule etc. gameplaywise?

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19 minutes ago, rediii said:

So if we want to go the simulation way the difference should be between 12 and 18 pounders which would kinda make sense, but would it be good for the bellepoule etc. gameplaywise?

i have the feeling that pen is designed regarding mast thickness without mods .

all ships of the same cannon class can pen mats within 50m to 100%

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Penetration at a constant velocity scales more or less with shot diameter, rather than weight (i.e. weight ^ 1/3).

The range at which an initial velocity decays to a lower value also scales in this way, so the larger shot do penetrate significantly better than weight ^1/3 at intermediate ranges compared to smaller shot.

For solid shot this divergence is not very fast though, with all shot at nominal 1500fps starting with penetration ~ 7.3 x diameter, and falling by 400 yds to ~6x for 42lb and 5x for 6lb shot. With variations in muzzle velocity from changes in charge weight, windage and length there is some more variation in initial penetration, but distance penetrations tend to converge to a single value for all shot of a given size, unless the V0 variation is extreme.

While impulse and the ability to reliably dismount or damage ordnance does scale directly with shot weight, the ability to hole or splinter goes more as weight ^2/3 and the ability to 'cut' with weight^1/3 (or shot diameter).

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One if the main reasons why a number, if not all, of the ships that have 18pd cannon decks are inferior to ships with better cannon loadouts.

You look at the wapen and aggie with 18 and 24pd gundecks. The 3rd rate and ingermanland with 18 and 32pd gundecks. They cannot hold a candle to ships that have better gun loadouts when instead they should be able to still measure up.

In many cases with a full thickness/hp built ship - the 18s cannot pen when they feel like they 'should' pen.

So I agree that we should definitely take a look at the penetrate table and I also like the idea of normalizing it to a 9 pen difference between guns.

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45 minutes ago, Lieste said:

Penetration at a constant velocity scales more or less with shot diameter, rather than weight (i.e. weight ^ 1/3).

 

difference in shot diameter.

difference between 4 and 6pd = 0,46 inches

difference between 6pd and 9pd =  0,52 inches

difference between 9pd and 12pd = 0,42 inches

difference between 12pd and 18pd = 0,65 inces

difference between 18pd and 24 pd = 0,51 inches

difference between 24pd and 32 pd = 0,57 inches

difference between 32pd and 42 pd = 0,59 inches

Edited by z4ys

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2 hours ago, rediii said:

that is grape and canister shot and not ball, right?

as far as I remember a post from @admin all cannons should pen pretty easy in real life. We have no real life simulation though and many shots bounce.

Also in real life ships didn't have HP and sank. It was more about shooting rigging and killing crew to lower morale and make them give up.

 

So in my oppinion pen values should be changed to fit the game 

also remember the lineships in this game are about 20-30cm thicker then IRL. HMS Victory is 60cm thick at the waterline :)

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Think of it more a a proportion than a difference. For equal velocities (and the later high gauge):
Index 12lb as 100, then, wt value (+diff from next smallest)

3lb ~62.4
4lb ~68.5 (+6.1)
6lb ~78.9 (+10.3)
9lb ~90.6 (+11.8)
12lb =100 (+9.4)
18lb ~112.7 (+12.7)
24lb ~124.1 (+11.3)
32lb ~136.5 (+12.4)
42lb ~149.5 (+13.0)
56lb ~163.6 (+14.1)
68lb ~175.2 (144 with hollow shot) (+11.6 shot, -19.3 hollow)

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29 minutes ago, Wyy said:

also remember the lineships in this game are about 20-30cm thicker then IRL. HMS Victory is 60cm thick at the waterline :)

this is a big + for more pen of lower calibres in my oppinion.

 

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But we should rework damage too.

A 42pd weights almost 2 time a 24.

So granted similar muzzle speed... and kinetic energy = mass x speed^2, should deliver almost 2 times the damage...

Another NA original sin.

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Just now, Licinio Chiavari said:

But we should rework damage too.

A 42pd weights almost 2 time a 24.

So granted similar muzzle speed... and kinetic energy = mass x speed^2, should deliver almost 2 times the damage...

Another NA original sin.

do 1st rates realy need a buff in damage? I dont think so.

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12 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

But we should rework damage too.

A 42pd weights almost 2 time a 24.

So granted similar muzzle speed... and kinetic energy = mass x speed^2, should deliver almost 2 times the damage...

Another NA original sin.

You assume that you can transfer all that kinetic energy into strucral damaged, but that only happens if our penetration is very close to the thickniss of the ship. Other wise you get overpenetration or partial peneration.

Edited by balticsailor

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10 minutes ago, rediii said:

do 1st rates realy need a buff in damage? I dont think so.

I am evaluating if big guns need a buff.

I am pointing a weird distribuition of damage per caliber.

That's the origin of weird 12pd carro Hercules hugging machine guns for example.

In reality a bigger gun was always preferred, being limited only by load issues.

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1 hour ago, Lieste said:

Penetration at a constant velocity scales more or less with shot diameter, rather than weight (i.e. weight ^ 1/3).

I'd rather think that penetration is proportional to the pressure made by the ball going to the planking (i.e. proportional to the weight of the ball divided by the diameter squared).

 

Placing that in mathematical équations (for those who like only)

     Penetration= Pound / diameter2

     Pound= k * diameter3  à diameter= (Pound / k)(1/3)

     Penetration is proportional to Pound(1/3)

:):):):):) 

 

If we stick to 42pd data as a basis:

Pound Penetration
42 125
36 119
32 114
24 104
18 94
12 82
9 75
6 65
4 57

 

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Just now, Licinio Chiavari said:

I am evaluating if big guns need a buff.

I am pointing a weird distribuition of damage per caliber.

That's the origin of weird 12pd carro Hercules hugging machine guns for example.

In reality a bigger gun was always preferred, being limited only by load issues.

the hugging machine of a herc is there because there is no area around your ship where your crew is shooting stuff at the enemy. HMS Victory got some serious damage trough musketfire as far as I know in trafalgar, a herc or requin would suffer even more.

 

Where I would agree though is that damage should also be done to the other side by lik 30% of the damage done. Why? to make doubling actually worth it, a tactic used in the age of sail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_battle#Doubling

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2 minutes ago, balticsailor said:

You assume that you can transfer all that kinetic energy into strucral damaged, but that only happens if our penetration is very close to the thickniss of the ship. Other wise you get overpenetration or partial peneration.

As stated above, real ships have not HP. So it is different.

In truth an "over penetrating" shot (at that time) would hole the side, kill/wound with splinter, the destroy a gun in the other side then may be leaving an hole on the opposite side. Nothing terrible... Aside weakening the structure in that point aka further hp damage

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1 minute ago, rediii said:

the hugging machine of a herc is there because there is no area around your ship where your crew is shooting stuff at the enemy. HMS Victory got some serious damage trough musketfire as far as I know in trafalgar, a herc or requin would suffer even more.

 

Where I would agree though is that damage should also be done to the other side by lik 30% of the damage done. Why? to make doubling actually worth it, a tactic used in the age of sail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_battle#Doubling

Arrived at same conclusion: or simply buff damage... Or add a feature making the heavy shots damaging one side, hull and other side too.

Programming wise I suspect more complex

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you currently do damage the other side of the hull. You need the right caliber compared to pen side thickness, plus internal structure resistance and then have enough left to pen the other side.

stack pen mods, you'll be surprised.

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Does anyone have the mast thickness values of all ships by rate? (ofc ingame ships/values)

Edited by z4ys

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4 hours ago, rediii said:

the hugging machine of a herc is there because there is no area around your ship where your crew is shooting stuff at the enemy. HMS Victory got some serious damage trough musketfire as far as I know in trafalgar, a herc or requin would suffer even more.

 

Where I would agree though is that damage should also be done to the other side by lik 30% of the damage done. Why? to make doubling actually worth it, a tactic used in the age of sail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_of_battle#Doubling

what if we have a standard maybe 10 muskets hits for 1 crew damage on average per minute (considering reloading the musket etc) times 1.5 open deck square meters ( this would balance the difference between ships with poopdeck cannons versus all else) maybe even the square meters closest to the railing and the amount of lookout posts in the masts.

then to make the taller ships more lethal towards the lower one we have a 5% buff/debuff(depending if you're the bigger or smaller ship). Could also calculate if possible the tallest decks go against each other on either ships which would make the damage santissima vs wappen some percent lower then say santissima vs constitution

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