Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum
CoolBreeze66

Classic Connie--Your Killing Us Here!

Recommended Posts

Well it does have a nice rounded hull, I bet you it would bounce a lot of cannon balls. Solid design, one log, one boat, can't go wrong with that just have to mount a 68pd carronade on it and hope it won't sink (can't rage board with 1 person).

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Le Raf Boom said:

Well it does have a nice rounded hull, I bet you it would bounce a lot of cannon balls. Solid design, one log, one boat, can't go wrong with that just have to mount a 68pd carronade on it and hope it won't sink (can't rage board with 1 person).

Depends on what you're rage boarding, and the 68lb carronade could provide a much needed speed boost in dire situations.

Edited by Percival Merewether
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

Victory is really only commissioned on the paper, let's not get here into the details and silly argues GB vs US ;)

The First Sea Lord uses Nelson's Great cabin for ceremonial purposes, there is also a contingent of Royal Naval personnel drafted to her, she is a commissioned warship in the Royal Navy in exactly the same way as HMS Heron aka RNAS Culdrose is. Were the USS Constitution permanently dry docked, she too, being in commission, maintains her status as a warship within the United States Navy just as any other shore establishment does. 

In no way do the facts detract anything from the USS Constitution, her achievements stand, as they always have, and, as they always will. Nothing, or, no one can take away, or, deny the fact she is the oldest Commissioned warship afloat, or, the the place in history she holds, the same holds true of HMS Victory's achievements, original date of commission and the fact that she still holds that commission be she afloat or dry docked. On the facts there is no argument to be had.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, admin said:

Ships will be rebalanced - constitution will be a super frigate

Hopefully the requin has a look at too.

But i digress - this is a connie topic.

Personally don't see too many flaws for in game balance with the connie. I definitely agree that the connie's turn rate...feels slow? 

Again though, i honestly feel that the connie is in a good spot in the game apart from some adjustments. I do believe we don't need 2 connie's though.

Can we just delete the old connie and have the connie classic as the connie?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/12/2018 at 8:05 AM, Hethwill the Harmless said:

SO she needs SPEED

What was recorded speed ? thanks...

 

 

Edited by Galt
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sir Lancelot Holland said:

The claim that USS Constitution is the the worlds oldest commissioned warship is incorrect, HMS Victory is both older and still in commission in the Royal Navy, she is currently Flagship to the First Sea Lord.

That being said, her claim to be the oldest commissioned warship still afloat is valid, and, like HMS Victory is a reminder not only of the traditions, values, honour, and, courage of the men and ships of both the Royal Navy, and, the United States Navy, but, also of both Great Britain and the United States of America. 

It is to be hoped that both ships will continue to serve their nations for many years to come.

https://www.hms-victory.com/

 

Victory has a literal gift shop built into her stern, lol.

They just need to add a Starbucks and a bordello to round out her 'commission'.

Not that Constitution is that far ahead in real capabilities.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Galt said:

 

USS Constitution Speed.png

Could we all understand that if we gave the connie her historical speed then you'd have one hell of an op ship after you add mods and books.

History is awesome, but this is a game and in a game we need to keep in mind balance. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Endymion captured the USS President (constitution) all by her lonesome. The connie was not THAT amazing and british training overcame any technical advantages.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HMS Endymion

Speed‎: ‎14.4 knots (16.6 mph; 26.7 km/h) runni...
Operator‎: ‎Royal Navy
Length‎: ‎159 ft 3 in (48.5 m)
Beam‎: ‎42 ft 7 in (13.0 m)
 
So yeah, I think the game is exactly where it should be in terms of speed really....
Edited by Le Raf Boom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

not even close to15.5 :) 

14.4 and endy was really top command, top crew, top team - imagine all the mods and books.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Le Raf Boom said:

So yeah, I think the game is exactly where it should be in terms of speed really....

Aside real Connie was doing 13 kts with LO/WO.

But it should not matter in game.

The balance issue (and the lack of Connie used in PvP) is the same: too slow... her base speed is 11.69, 0.1 less than Agamennon. And well under all other frigates (that could be fine). Moreover Rig refits (last tests are quite old still) not really helping her having a good share of both jibs and squares... so getting some (not big advantage) but also being hit hardly in the opposite profile.

Or if you prefer, looking only on 4th rates. She has a crappy speed (nor really boost-able by Rig refits), the worst turning rate (on par with Bellona) and lowest broadside.
SO: she's the worst on 3 on 4 stats, having only great sturdiness.

These stats make her unable to compete (and usually unable to run either) with other SoLs, smaller or bigger - due to crappy turn rate AND unable to compete with other frigates (too slow and crappy turnrate again - so terrible easy to sterncamp).

Sincerely.
We consider fine a Trinco (not to speak of Surprises or Herculeses) sterncamping a 3rd rate... but not fine a Connie doing the same. I'd say OK.
But at the same time we are keeping her also too slow to run from a lot of SoLs and any decent frigate - that will not go side to side with her... but will sterncamp her easy as a Bellona with the plus of not having to worry about a so strong broadside.

Conclusion: IMO Connie speed should be 12 kts or slightly more.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@admin--thanks so much for a beautiful new model. One minor point--to my knowledge Constitution didn't carry a gaff sail (i.e. the one between the spanker gaff and the mizzen), though I've seen drawings/plans of her sister President which sometimes include one.

Historically, Constitution was able to make roughly 13 knots on a good day.  So a 13 knot top speed with in game trims of Live Oak framing and White Oak planking should be the baseline from which speed is derived.

Many thanks--

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

not even close to15.5 :) 

 14.4 and endy was really top command, top crew, top team - imagine all the mods and books.

Exactly, If the Constitution was "bow figure gazelle, bridgetown frame refit , and optimized rudder" the Endymion was "art of ship handling, copper plating, navy hull refit, and elite British rig refit" 

The bottom line is we can't tell how tough, fast, or agile these ships were, unless we want to build a mock up of the Endymion and start shooting holes in both her and the USS Constitution, after we have them race. Therefore, while these debates are fun and all, game design choices must be first and foremost about balance, and having a super frigate running around at 13 knots before mods or crew knowledge used would be broken (And highly suspect historically relative to the other ships in game). I wouldn't add more than 0.5kn to the constitution's speed, enough to outrun 4th rates but that's it.

Edited by Capt Aerobane

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hehe, keep on with trashing the poor in-game Connie. I've heard and read several complaints about the stats "sucking" when compared to other 4th rates. But, have these players actually sailed Connie recently (old model or new model)? I have been sailing the old boxy model a bit over the past month or two, and have no complaints. It could maybe get a tad more speed (maybe .2-.3 is reasonable, but you don't want to make it too fast), but other than that, the stats are good. Its very bouncy and tanky, as it should be. It makes good speed in a straight line but suffers in turning, as it should (its a long hull, it cannot and should not turn well). The manual sailing force is great with it, handle it well and she tacks beautifully and really spins once you get the turn started.

But maybe the Requin and Hercules are such easy mode that players have forgotten how to actually sail a ship in NA (you know, manual sailing, feathering, careful depowering, using leeway, planning maneuvers several steps in advance, etc.). But I digress.


And the "Connie is best because 'Murica!" trope is funny. I'm an American citizen and proud of our nation's ability to build a great "frigate." But don't let patriotism or embellished history cloud reasonable thinking. The video linked on the first page is a great quick breakdown of why Constitution had success IRL. It did essentially what so many of us do in NA (sail a teak/wo Endy around, sink whatever we can handle and escape whatever can sink us). Furthermore, its success is as much perceived as it was real: newspaper articles reported 'US Frigate sinks British Frigate in Duel' or something along those lines, but how much do you want to bet that the papers glossed over the fact that it was a 44gun heavy built 24pd frigate vs a 38 gun 18pd frigate of a lighter build? That would be like me using that teak/wo Endy I mentioned and sinking a store-bought frigate. Yeah, GG, Endymion best ship, obviously. 

The fact of the matter is this: USS Constitution wasn't anything super special. Britain had ships that were faster and equally armed, and a few razees that were as fast and even tougher and more powerful. But the only engagement that ever happened between such ships (that I can recall) is USS President vs HMS Endymion & co. And that fight is a bit skewed because USS President was running for most of the fight because the British fleet was behind the Endymion. Maybe the next closest is HMS Java vs USS Constitution, where Constitution's superior firepower and a good commander prevailed over the smaller British frigate.

So yes, Constitution was good. But it wasn't the best ship ever built, superior to all other frigates, or anything ridiculous like that. Simply a good, tough frigate with a reasonable speed. Sounds familiar to what we have in NA.....

 

Back to the game now and specifically directed at speed:

I mean, not to sound too grumpy, but...are you guys who say she's useless NOT capable of building a fast ship (wood+trims+enough slots+upgrades)? I've got a teak/teak that sits around 13kn and several lighter builds that do 13.5+, and they could be faster still. Please, stop with this "LO/WO did 13kn so in game Connie should too" crap. No. If we had realistic ship construction where wood type didn't affect speed so much, sure. Balance all base speeds off historical values then. But the game doesn't work that way right now. So if you buff the speed too much right now, you'll end up with fir/fir Connies hitting the speed cap and inflating their sailing profile. At that point, we've re-instated the Wasa meta, just with 4 18pd bow chasers instead of 6 9pd chasers.

Here's a couple screenshots of battles that involved some actual fighting (granted it was vs some players who have less experience than I, but I mean... L'Ocean vs Connie or Connie vs Connie + Hercudumb AI doesn't leave room to make lots of mistakes when you've got a lightly built Connie). I've got others where my "slow Connie" (really its not that slow for the size) chased down traders and lighter 5th-6th rates, but those aren't as interesting to look at.

[Clarification: this is the old Constitution model, not the new, improved one]:

A0FDEDDF88B4123EB0EB22292CFE6C2A63BF8764

E51EB716C19B343236D0F4F4416965EB6A1C44B5

 

 

So, maybe you don't like it so much, but I absolutely love 24pd longs + 42pd carronades and a hull (even lightly built) with more HP and thickness than the average fifth rate, and capable of moving at 13-14kn+ :D. Not to mention masts that DON'T fall at the drop of a hat, enough crew to overcome DD on lighter ships with minimal de-crewing, and 18pd chasers that can dismast most ships that aren't running mast mods, or throw some truly devastating chain shot. 


I wouldn't object to a slight buff in speed and turn rate, but for goodness sakes don't overdo it. Learn some skills and make a proper build and I think you'll find the handling of it surpasses the stats on the card (manual sailing force and turn acceleration [somewhere I saw a chart with the base values listed] are difficult to accurately measure/calculate since they depend on speed, sail setting, and player skill).

 

I'll withhold my judgement on Constitution Classic till I've tested her, but if she's basically the same Connie that I know and love now, just with a better hull shape and 4 chasers, plus a prettier rigging plan...then I'm sure it'll be great.

Edited by William Death
  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Old Crusty said:

Off the top of my head, the Constellation had a very long and successful Career and is anchored at Baltimore harbor. Your statement of all others in her class ended in a bad way is simply wrong.

Actually that is an old myth. The ship in Baltimore is a Civil War era ship built in the 1840s. Also the original Constellation was not one of the 44s which were United States, Constitution and President. Constellation was a 38 gun 18 pdr frigate,  same class as the Chesapeake. 

https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=2401

 

2 hours ago, Old Crusty said:

One of the biggest things that people forget about the age of sail is that the experience of the Officers and quality of the professionalism of the crew mattered a lot more than the ship that they were sailing. Americans in this time period were inexperienced and average at best when they first manned a ship. The British Navy on the other hand had the best ship Captains of any Navy in the world and the best trained crews. The point is that if you put the best Frigate in the world in the hands of a sub par Captain the ship will not perform well. The opposite is also true in giving an inferior ship to an Elite Captain and crew.

No more evident than the Shannon v Chesapeake which people like to bring up when disregarding the Constitution's victories as against inferior ships. Captain Broke was one of the best captains in the RN and regularly drilled his crew in live gunnery. In contrast Lawrence had a green crew in the Chesapeake and simply maneuvered long side for a close range gunnery duel which was not going to end well for his ship. 

However in general the US crews were on par with the British for a couple of reasons. At the beginning of the war there was a surplus of experienced American sailors from a large merchant fleet and the navy was able to man large crews with these experienced men, whereas by this time the British were impressing landsmen to fill crews. By the end of the war the blockade certainly had an effect on US readiness, but I wouldn't say to the extent as for the Spanish or French.  The captain as  you note also had a great effect on the handling of a ship. Good captains placed emphasis on gunnery drill and live fire was in many cases never done as being too expensive. The Constitution was a fortunate ship in that she had excellent captains and crews when it counted.

@Fluffy FishyIt is easy to forget the rational behind the design and the state of the USN at the time. The RN having a huge fleet with a large number of heavy frigates on patrol had no need for such an design (and expense).  British frigates routinely beat larger French frigates some with heavier guns but it never caused any rethinking of armament or heavy frigate design in general. In fact the use of 24 pdrs was rejected until the encounters with the American 44s. Then you have 24 pdrs on Endyimon for example and the building of more 50 gun 4th rates to counter them, a class of ship that had fallen into disuse before  then. One could also argue that the post war designs were influenced by the class as well. 

The argument that the 44s as a class of frigate performed poorly one has to take the blockade into account. These ships were blockaded in port for the majority of the war. As you know that is how President was captured, trying to run the blockade in a winter storm. Frankly we'll never know if Endymion would have caught her had she not been damaged running around. (and then she only struck because the 2 38 gun frigates had caught up by the time she disabled Endymion's rigging. She was known to be a fast sailor and was catching the HMS Belvidera (a 36 gun frigate) and outrunning the Congress in 1812 until one of her guns burst seriously injuring Commodore Rodgers. Then there is the United States , granted known to be slow, but still she captured HMS Macedonian. 

Constitution did get out for one last cruise and then fought a battle different from the others as she fought two smaller ships Levant and Cyane which had they been able to coordinate may have had a different result. (I also would note that Cyane had previously captured a French 40 gun fifth rate.) This battle was won more by the skill of the captain and crew maneuvering than simply heavier broadside weight. 

Just as there are threads discounting the "propaganda" value of the ship there are also threads with stats. @NorthernWolves did extensive research on the Constitution based on the actual ships plans, wood types and thickness, etc. 

IMO speed could be increased. Turn rate is only a problem because it is much more important in NA than IRL. A smaller 5th rate should outturn Constitution and she should out turn a Bellona. 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

And Shannon, a smaller ship, captured Chesapeake.

No actually they were both 38 gun 5th rates. HMS Shannon  had a much better captain and crew and won the day (rookies vs. vets). The ships were fairly evenly matched though. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Preble said:

@admin--thanks so much for a beautiful new model. One minor point--to my knowledge Constitution didn't carry a gaff sail (i.e. the one between the spanker gaff and the mizzen), though I've seen drawings/plans of her sister President which sometimes include one.

Historically, Constitution was able to make roughly 13 knots on a good day.  So a 13 knot top speed with in game trims of Live Oak framing and White Oak planking should be the baseline from which speed is derived.

Many thanks--

P.S.--in real life Constitution was able to do this with diagonal riders, which if I'm not mistaken is currently an upgrade in-game that strengthens the hull but knocks speed.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Flinch said:

The Endymion captured the USS President (constitution) all by her lonesome. The connie was not THAT amazing and british training overcame any technical advantages.

That's patently false.

Exactly @DeRuyter....  Its ludicrous to state definitively that USS President was captured by HMS Endymion...  One could easily make the case that President would have engaged Endymion outright had the Majestic and Pomone not been around as well. 

Pure conjecture.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

SO she needs SPEED

What was recorded speed ? thanks...

On one occasion logged 14 knts. 

http://www.captainsclerk.info/data/data_on_constitution.html

Usually log entries show 11 knts more consistently. Once they raised all sails to see how fast she would sail on a dead run - 10 knts. Of course all these numbers from the logs are in varying wind and weather conditions which we don't have in game. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, William Death said:

...

I suspect you know your skill level is well above 99+% of players.
Otherwise how explain almost no one using her?

I know that skill matters, more or less, still matters.

But also skilled players... usually, use "meta-ships" or anything with which they got a decent edge on.
As having a good edge on enemy is part of the game.

And Connie is well far away from that... for the mix of above noted issues: too low speed coupled with terrible turning. I know she can turn decently with manual... but "decent" starting from a turning rate equal to a 3rd rate one, is not "good", nor "exceptional".

Therefore also super skilled will end using a strong ship... and a super skilled on a Herc probably would be able to outurn and so sterncamp a super skilled on a... Connie.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One visual clue on the difference in sail rig between the Standard and the Classic -

The Standard has a dropsail below the bowsprit. The Classic does not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...