Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum
admin

Patch 26. Spanish Frigate Diana, BR rebalance - Diana is a timed reward.

Recommended Posts

16 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

Mate. She's not my precious.

 

 

Ahah!

So i was right about Hobbit crews all along. :D

Also don't worry, if req is nerfed to far i would support Req also ;) .

Edited by Dibbler
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Flash Jack said:

Haha!

Death who are you kiddng??

You sail with Cart/AOS/as a minimum!

You have no right to talk how you find a ship for hunting. You and others have too many top mods to even comment and this is why the game is in this mess for normal non super modded players.

Although I diagree with Crow, he was telling the Devs not to get directed by the forum elite all the time. 

The game needs balance for normal players.

 

 Have to agree, changes should be made weighing up all sides and looking at data.

 You can ask 10 people about the same thing and most probably all answers are different due to point of view.

 Balance i think must be hardest thing to achieve in any game.

 

 

Edited by Dibbler
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, admin said:

The goal was to reduce the hugging by available means without programming time (just by tweaking speeds) but higher speed reduces tactical depth of combat.
We want to increase the tactical depth and coordination, not decrease it.

As a result we will reduce the max allowed speed back to 3.5 knots from 8, but will keep the lower speed difference. All other changes will remain.

Hugging and stern camping will have to be solved by musket fire. This will require programming time and cannot be expected until localization is finished (or during localization). One option is to just add another slot to cannons and allow the players to aim them in combat (but adding another cannon slot will require full ship wipe thus can be done only before release of the game).

The great irony here is that hugging and stern camping are only gripes for people who want to sail alone in large ships and sail in straight lines. To massively change mechanics to appease these players, to the detriment of ship variety and other play styles, is a problem that shouldn’t be fixed.

I’m all for walking back the changes made yesterday with a tweak, say max speed of 5 knots, with a relative vector of say 7 knots, and testing this for a while. The biggest issue I saw yesterday was that there would eventually be a huge creep towards sailing the largest ship possible crew wise for any particular activity. For example, taking anything other than an Ocean to grind hostility is a liability because only distance can protect any other ship in the battle. So we will immediately see Ocean spam for any activity needing first rates.

And on the issue of appeasing the non-Requin-lovers, I think the changes to crew mods should also be walked back, but balanced by moving Requin to a fifth rate. (And then ban all DLC ships from port battles.)

The entire patch yesterday was a big let down for anyone wanting to sail smaller ships and keep diversity of ships in the game, and a huge boon to the casuals who just want to sail the largest ship they can crew. I think this is the wrong direction for the game and encourages only a single play style.

 

 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Wraith said:

The great irony here is that hugging and stern camping are only gripes for people who want to sail alone in large ships and sail in straight lines. To massively change mechanics to appease these players, to the detriment of ship variety and other play styles, is a problem that shouldn’t be fixed.

I’m all for walking back the changes made yesterday with a tweak, say max speed of 5 knots, with a relative vector of say 7 knots, and testing this for a while. The biggest issue I saw yesterday was that there would eventually be a huge creep towards sailing the largest ship possible crew wise for any particular activity. For example, taking anything other than an Ocean to grind hostility is a liability because only distance can protect any other ship in the battle. So we will immediately see Ocean spam for any activity needing first rates.

And on the issue of appeasing the non-Requin-lovers, I think the changes to crew mods should also be walked back, but balanced by moving Requin to a fifth rate. (And then ban all DLC ships from port battles.)

The entire patch yesterday was a big let down for anyone wanting to sail smaller ships and keep diversity of ships in the game, and a huge boon to the casuals who just want to sail the largest ship they can crew. I think this is the wrong direction for the game and encourages only a single play style.

 

 

 

  Perhaps an answer for RvR would be to make all newly introduced ships undergo "sea trials" for a period of say 2-3 months so can be fully evaluated.  During this time the ship would not be able to take part in National aggressions (port battles) while the impact of ship, tweaking, BR and examination of data is done and adjusted.

 I just think to totally exclude a ship from RvR would be wrong, but a period of testing before it can enter RvR perhaps would be a good compromise.

 

 

 

Edited by Dibbler
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

Yes. Correct.

Very often the boarding was not decisive though, but let's not go that avenue ( some boarding actions lasted well over half a dozen hours and 12 attempts )

I am focused on the gamey part of boarding - preparation, engagement, resolution.

 

I think prep for boarding is fine.  Actually quite realistic, and its up to the defender to think of prepping himself. 

I'm still a strong believer that you should be stopped to initiate boarding, but I concede that in this game, everything happens with more speed.  3.5 is more than enough there.  We should consider that there are suggestions to add rubbing damage to stop hugging.  Since boarding is also hugging, this needs to be considered as a singular event. 

For engagement, I really liked an earlier idea that we stop players from changing boarding orders while the timer counts down.  Change it to a 5 second timer and no changing. The concept that you proposed for an automatic disengage is interesting.  If you're not overpowering enough, your victim can break away.  Here, I would also like to see lower deck guns continue to fire (if you have them).  In addition, other ships should be able to pile into the boarding melee.  Maybe the original players of the action control all crews on their side (trust issues).

Resolution-wise, what about some form of boarding shock if the attacking ship gets a lot of casualties? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still think the idea of changing the boarding was fine, because until there are no muskets in battle apart from boarding, you can´t keep someone from hugging, if he wants to.

My idea would be to make boarding possible for two separate cases:

 

1. At speed up to say 8-10kn, but only with a difference of say 1-1.5kn, and maybe only at certain angles (broadside-broadside would be the ideal showcase).

This way huggers could be punished, without losing realism, because a speed difference of 4kn or higher in real life would have just caused the ropes to snap, or the brackets to break when the ships moved on (bc they would not take down sails in an instant). But when your relative speed is quite close, boarding may actually be possible.

 

2. Rules as they are now: At low speed of about 3.5kn, but with a larger difference in speed allowed.

 

The other changes are fine to me, bc Requinn was just massively overcrewed for its unlimited range on OW. Still, moving it to 5th rates would´ve been fine with me aswell...

Another issue I have is with determined defender: Either you make it useful, as it was with 30% crew difference, and maybe nerf it down to 15-20%, if that´s necessary (which it wasn´t imo), or you delete it as a whole, but the way it is now, it´s just useless.

Determined defender should protect you from getting boarded, and it did effectively, but this efficiency got removed entirely.

Balancing with a fourty ton truck instead of a slight push becomes annoying at times...

Edited by Gott365
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

I think prep for boarding is fine.  Actually quite realistic, and its up to the defender to think of prepping himself. 

I'm still a strong believer that you should be stopped to initiate boarding, but I concede that in this game, everything happens with more speed.  3.5 is more than enough there.  We should consider that there are suggestions to add rubbing damage to stop hugging.  Since boarding is also hugging, this needs to be considered as a singular event. 

For engagement, I really liked an earlier idea that we stop players from changing boarding orders while the timer counts down.  Change it to a 5 second timer and no changing. The concept that you proposed for an automatic disengage is interesting.  If you're not overpowering enough, your victim can break away.  Here, I would also like to see lower deck guns continue to fire (if you have them).  In addition, other ships should be able to pile into the boarding melee.  Maybe the original players of the action control all crews on their side (trust issues).

Resolution-wise, what about some form of boarding shock if the attacking ship gets a lot of casualties? 

3.5 kts has been always way too slow... granted the ludicrous speed and manouvrability of our ships.

Probably 8 kts was a bit too high. But with 3.5 with end up again with the same push to the wind as only way to stop a ship. Realism?
On the other hand not so high. Real SoL fought often around 4 kts... and boarded eachother in a dim.
Our heavy 1st rate combat speed is... 8 kts.

And then discussing again collision damages. I am quite good at manouvering, so I do not fear heavy collision damages. Even "friendly fire": awareness and reaction should matter.

BUT one of the two: or I can board side to side even on speed just hugging the enemy ship, and a bad manouver could be dangerous for my hull... OR I have to be able to push and stop him. Otherwise, easier cancelling boarding altogether.

Ahhh, right. You can board after demasting the enemy... what's the point boarding an already demasted enemy? Make him auto-surrender.

The funny part is the call for realism (or physics).
The AC-RA = Alternate Current - Realism Argument.

Realism should mean
That running full sails in battle to be suicide.
That tacking into the wind will require a minimum 5 minutes even on a nimble frigate.
That maximum speed of any ship (yes, schooner too) to be approx at broad reach.
That closing wind to 80° would stop (no, not slow down - STOP) any square rigged ship.
That even thinking to "aim" to masts, from a rolling deck of a full speed ship against another one, should be plain stupid.

Etc... Etc... Etc...  

Forgot: that if you have been dismantled in combat.... you cannot repair to full = no repairs in combat.
That rum, even if very good, dont revive the deads.
Nor you can refit a smashed ship out of combat in OW either.
Nor you can teleport new crew from Enterprise.

I'm on for this kind of full realism.
And you? (in general the veteran player base = the usual whiners)

Edited by Licinio Chiavari

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

3.5 kts has been always way too slow... granted the ludicrous speed and manouvrability of our ships.

Probably 8 kts was a bit too high. But with 3.5 with end up again with the same push to the wind as only way to stop a ship. Realism?
On the other hand not so high. Real SoL fought often around 4 kts... and boarded eachother in a dim.
Our heavy 1st rate combat speed is... 8 kts.

And then discussing again collision damages. I am quite good at manouvering, so I do not fear heavy collision damages. Even "friendly fire": awareness and reaction should matter.

BUT one of the two: or I can board side to side even on speed just hugging the enemy ship, and a bad manouver could be dangerous for my hull... OR I have to be able to push and stop him. Otherwise, easier cancelling boarding altogether.

Ahhh, right. You can board after demasting the enemy... what's the point boarding an already demasted enemy? Make him auto-surrender.

The funny part is the call for realism (or physics).
The AC-RA = Alternate Current - Realism Argument.

Realism should mean
That running full sails in battle to be suicide.
That tacking into the wind will require a minimum 5 minutes even on a nimble frigate.
That maximum speed of any ship (yes, schooner too) to be approx at broad reach.
That closing wind to 80° would stop (no, not slow down - STOP) any square rigged ship.
That even thinking to "aim" to masts, from a rolling deck of a full speed ship against another one, should be plain stupid.

Etc... Etc... Etc...  

 

 Things can't be total realism, and at the same time not total arcade so things have to be represented via balancing. 

 I think 8 knts was to high but at same time 3.5 knts to low :D,  perhaps increase by -2 knts and test again perhaps.

 Determined defender perhaps again go somewhere in middle ground to 10-15%, as in current form is quite poor.

 Balancing is one of hardest things in any game I think for a dev,  as most players will respond according to their viewpoint and playstyle.  Although when changes come they seem often to be a sledgehammer change rather than a tweak lol. Maybe devs just trying extremes and see where a good middle ground could be though.

 

 

 

Edited by Dibbler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Dibbler said:

Things can't be total realism, and at the same time not total arcade so things have to be represented via balancing. 

 I think 8 knts was to high but at same time 3.5 knts to low :D,  perhaps increase by -2 knts and test again perhaps.

 Determined defender perhaps again go somewhere in middle ground to 10-15%, as in current form is quite poor.

 Balancing is one of hardest things in any game I think for a dev,  as most players will respond according to their viewpoint and playstyle.  Although when changes come they seem often to be a sledgehammer change rather than a tweak lol. Maybe devs just trying extremes and see where a good middle ground could be though.

You know. I'm marked with being requin-only user and hard defender. So anything I write is twisted.

But indeed I always proposed reasonble nerfs to her (and being on for any mod rework/nerf, also those hitting the Requin). As I always said boarding game needs a total revamp.

I personally see far worst unbalances and unrealism in mast sniping, infinite repairs crap and frigates hunting 1st rates, than a full boarding ship aiming to board and kill a similar sized and crewed ship that is not prepared nor geared for a boarding battle; the unreal part is having to push into the wind the enemy ship, not that a boarding ship (pirates anyone? super-over-crewed schooner used by pirates anyone?) if getting in the melee will easily kill the less crewed (sheer numbers), badly lead (no player experience), untrained (no marines, no books) and under equipped (musket book...) ship.

As you said: PoV.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

You know. I'm marked with being requin-only user and hard defender. So anything I write is twisted.

But indeed I always proposed reasonble nerfs to her (and being on for any mod rework/nerf, also those hitting the Requin). As I always said boarding game needs a total revamp.

I personally see far worst unbalances and unrealism in mast sniping, infinite repairs crap and frigates hunting 1st rates, than a full boarding ship aiming to board and kill a similar sized and crewed ship that is not prepared nor geared for a boarding battle; the unreal part is having to push into the wind the enemy ship, not that a boarding ship (pirates anyone? super-over-crewed schooner used by pirates anyone?) if getting in the melee will easily kill the less crewed (sheer numbers), badly lead (no player experience), untrained (no marines, no books) and under equipped (musket book...) ship.

As you said: PoV.

 

Yes Pov.

Also has to be something for everyone in a game, reality ofc should be base for things ingame  but by the same thinking you wouldn't see  so many ships if we went total realism. Don't get me started on mast sniping lol :D, but isn't easy as it looks, those guys have just practiced and practiced.

Has to be game vs reality compromise in all area's, and ofc balance.

Nothing wrong with you defending req though, just happy the crew stack bonuses are out of the fantasy area :D.  What will all the Hobbits do now, back to being tossed for sport in local taverns .

 

 

 

 

Edited by Dibbler
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

3.5 kts has been always way too slow... granted the ludicrous speed and manouvrability of our ships.

Probably 8 kts was a bit too high. But with 3.5 with end up again with the same push to the wind as only way to stop a ship. Realism?
On the other hand not so high. Real SoL fought often around 4 kts... and boarded eachother in a dim.
Our heavy 1st rate combat speed is... 8 kts.

And then discussing again collision damages. I am quite good at manouvering, so I do not fear heavy collision damages. Even "friendly fire": awareness and reaction should matter.

BUT one of the two: or I can board side to side even on speed just hugging the enemy ship, and a bad manouver could be dangerous for my hull... OR I have to be able to push and stop him. Otherwise, easier cancelling boarding altogether.

Ahhh, right. You can board after demasting the enemy... what's the point boarding an already demasted enemy? Make him auto-surrender.

The funny part is the call for realism (or physics).
The AC-RA = Alternate Current - Realism Argument.

Realism should mean
That running full sails in battle to be suicide.
That tacking into the wind will require a minimum 5 minutes even on a nimble frigate.
That maximum speed of any ship (yes, schooner too) to be approx at broad reach.
That closing wind to 80° would stop (no, not slow down - STOP) any square rigged ship.
That even thinking to "aim" to masts, from a rolling deck of a full speed ship against another one, should be plain stupid.

Etc... Etc... Etc...  

Forgot: that if you have been dismantled in combat.... you cannot repair to full = no repairs in combat.
That rum, even if very good, dont revive the deads.
Nor you can refit a smashed ship out of combat in OW either.
Nor you can teleport new crew from Enterprise.

I'm on for this kind of full realism.
And you? (in general the veteran player base = the usual whiners)

I've always been for no repairs in battle (just plugging leaks, putting out fires).  I happen to agree with OW repairs and crew replacement for pure gamey convenience.  It's too slow to go back to port after every battle.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The relative speed 5 kts difference = 2.5 meters per second. That does not look authentic "match speed for boarding" to me. I don´t care how fast do ship sail for boarding as soon as they can match speeds for certain time. Isnt that definition of hugging?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Armored_Sheep said:

The relative speed 5 kts difference = 2.5 meters per second. That does not look authentic "match speed for boarding" to me. I don´t care how fast do ship sail for boarding as soon as they can match speeds for certain time. Isnt that definition of hugging?

Indeed far better leaving the max speed at 8-ish kts (if not even more) and changing the differential to something really close, like only 1 o 2 kts (and may be a shorter range for starting the pull).
That's would make proper sail handling matters a lot.

But whiners won... a stupid battle; IMO even against their own interests: they prefer to lose 1st rates to hercules than risking frigates to Requins 🤣

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

But whiners won... a stupid battle; IMO even against their own interests: they prefer to lose 1st rates to hercules than risking frigates to Requins 🤣

Who whines? Look at your posts.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Sir Loorkon said:

Who whines? Look at your posts.

Read them. All. And yes, also the lasts.
I'm not whining :) no reason to.
Nothing, almost, change to me: for long time I sailed no requin with more than 300 crew; only in last weeks having a v.cramped pushed her higher, but never liked the set up (hammock book hurts morale): I used it to overcome DD; problem solved.

I'll sail now one sitting on 250.

I pointed out that a nerf is a nerf not, as Admin stated "nothing changed for LRQ". Aside that, no whining.

I do well remember the outcry and the desperation thinking being boarded at 8 kts :D  :D  :D

You missed some posts, may be... or are you a case of selective reading?

Edited by Licinio Chiavari
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gentlemen, let's stop with requien/youthisyouthat back and forth, c'mon, there's literally dozen of other ships in the game and game simulations affect all.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thank the devs for reverting the speed change. 

I still think we should look at it but it really does seem the only way is to add musket fire in the game - we'll see.

I actually enjoy the other changes. I honestly feel that cramped and very cramped should still be 5% and 10% respectively since it is a chance based trim. The barricades change is good - those who don't like boarding should probably get it, those who also want a different kind of boarding instead of attacking should also consider it.

I eagerly await the mod/book balance pass though, and the UI and flag teaser is nice and next patch is looking good.

Edited by Teutonic
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, AeRoTR said:

I would say increase grappling time, instant grapple and pull is so silly.

This is a very elegant, and simple, solution. As well, currently mass and momentum seem to be misrepresented in grappling. Not to mention the strange spinning of ships being grappled.

Edited by Rook
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Correct chevalier Le Requin... brain hurts with so much of it back and forth.

Anyone knows what was the usual "warning shot" distance ? 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

Players die to boarding so often because it's too complicated and too complex.

Players die to boarding because they refuse to learn the mechanics. If anything is simple in NA, it's trading, boarding and demasting HMS Surprise. The issue with boarding might be, that it's so fast and abrupt compared to the rest of NA's combat mechanics. To your proposals concerning AI boardng nerf and prolonged grapple time I agree.

A question to those, who sail boarding fitted or specialized boarding vessels: do you honestly consider boarding fun or do you actually mostly like the possibility of quickly knocking out an enemy? If I imagined a boarding fight for ten minutes - that's not what NA is about for me, and it's for sure not fun imo. It's rock-scissors-paper game with a tiny degree of customization. If boarding was entirely reworked, it should have more of a place ingame. Atm it's a grotesquely boring feature imo. 

3.5kn and DD at 0.001% is GOOD. Realistic or not, 8kn was game breaking for stated reasons, thx for removing it.

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...