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The state of cannons right now is a little unusual, and while it has been ok for the game to this point, the upcoming Wreker and Téméraire class ships currently in development are likely to change this and we are soon likely to see a risk of the game balance being rocked in the future, with both Téméraire and Wreker able to equip 36s and with Wreker somewhat more notably likely able to equip 32s on her second deck. Under the game mechanics as they are this means that both these ships would be able to also equip the heaviest standard armament in the game, the 42lb cannon, which a potentially creats some weird looking situations where we have people running around in 3rd rates with 42lb guns or we end up rating Téméraire as a 2nd rate, neither are desirable outcomes in my opinion. I would like to propose breaking up 36s and 42s.

As I understand it the cannons in question are based off the British 42lb and the French 36lb, who's shot weights are as follows:

  • British 42lb: Shot weight 19.026kg, Gun Weight 3957kg (short cut 42 from Victory, standard would be heavier)
  • French 36lb: Shot weight 17.064kg, Gun Weight 3643kg (standard long 36 from Boudroit's figures)

With the accessibility of cannon classes currently set up like this:

  1. 42lb, 36lb
  2. 32lb
  3. 24lb
  4. 18lb, Edinorog
  5. 12lb
  6. 9lb
  7.  N/A
  8. 6lb
  9. 4lb
  10. 4lb Basic
  11. 2lb

This is somewhat of a bizarre set up in two areas, 1st and 7th class. 1st class is bizarre as the only class to contain two distinctly different gun weightings, while 7th class is even more illusive due to the fact it contains no cannons at all, only the 18lb carronade. What would make infinitely more sense to the game would be to rerate everything slightly so as to have cannon classes set up as follows.

  1. 42lb
  2. 36lb
  3. 32lb
  4. 24lb
  5. 18lb, Edinorog
  6. 12lb
  7. 9lb
  8. 6lb
  9. 4lb
  10. 4lb Basic
  11. 2lb

The other benefits of this is you could reassess which ships could potentially equip each class of cannon more precisely, potentially leaving the most powerful 42lb for Pavel, Victory and leaving Ocean, Santissima, Téméraire, Bucentaure and Wreker equipped with the slightly smaller calibre of 36lb gun, this would not only give a slightly more realistic historic armament flavour but also create a nice little way to look at balance more seriously, with the 36lb gun being a little worse on the DPS, which allows both Pavel and Victory to be more competitive amongst their similarly rated ships, hopefully promoting more variety in combat.

As a little side note I'm uncertain whether Ocean would be able to carry 42s or not, the 300kg difference between the French 36 and the British shortest variant of the 42 isn't hugely significant to a ship the size of Ocean although it would be a nice balance point, meanwhile I severely doubt Santissima would be able to mount the British 42 safely, had she not been wrecked in the storm and then enlisted into the British fleet following Trafalgar I can't see her being armed with anything heavier than the British 32s.

To summarise, please could we consider splitting the 42 and 36lb guns up into separate classes to avoid potential balance issues with the current ships in development but also add more flavour and realistic armaments to the various ships we already have in game for the pursuit of balance and accuracy.

Thanks for reading.

Edited by Fluffy Fishy
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Sounds logical to me.
I would add that with this reclass maybe damage, penetration and reload time should be slightly (I really mean only slightly, no sarcasm!) tweaked, so as to make an actual difference between the 36 pounders and the 42s. If memory serves the 42s have negligibly more damage with one more second of reload. (Please correct me if I am wrong on that).
This, in combination with reserving 42 longs for the Victory and Pavel, could give both ships a bit of a needed buff.

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I can't see a reason to object to this.

+1 from me, it would definitely help clear some balance issues, but I also think a cannon penetration and damage adjustment is needed overall.

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I bring back this topic as i was asking myself why i can't put 36lb guns on my bucentaure ? 

Also this gun classment make us unable to put 36lb on Christian while we can overgun it with 42 lb guns he never had (36lb then 32lb in british service)

I think things could be reversed by making 36lb the class 1 default cannon and open the 42lb cannon to the ships that had them (some love for the HMS Victory ) Maybe do this change with the cannons dmg patch, and balance 36lb & 42lb regarding 32lb with traverse speed penalties for the heavier guns class.

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We dont know, the 36 of should be locked to the french sols, even french 3rd rates used 36pd on main gundeck, only the devs would know. Its the same as why isnt the edinorogs locked to the russian ships of the line.

They have already shown that they can classify it to individual ship classes since basic 4pd is only available for basic cutter class

Edited by Wyy
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14 hours ago, Wyy said:

We dont know, the 36 of should be locked to the french sols, even french 3rd rates used 36pd on main gundeck, only the devs would know. Its the same as why isnt the edinorogs locked to the russian ships of the line.

They have already shown that they can classify it to individual ship classes since basic 4pd is only available for basic cutter class

36lb was a pretty common weighting in the age of sail though, while the actual weight of shot varied quite a bit Russia, France, Spain, Netherlands, Portugal, Sweden and Denmark-Norway all used 36s. Its also the largest service long gun in the Spanish, French, Portuguese, Danish-Norwegian and Swedish navies. I still stick to my point in having extended use of it benefiting the general balance in such a positive way, especially considering the stats on the 36s in the current state. It would make players think twice about the current L' Ocean meta.

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French/Spanish 36 livre was broadly equivalent to 40lb, partly differences in the lb and partly higher gauge... and not a world away from the 42lb gun....

It is certainly not 'like a 32lb'.

Some other nations with a 'light' pound will differ.

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Who said they are "like a 32lb" ?   

the 36lb in game is already "not a world aways from 42lb gun" so what do you try to tell us ? That no one care and just use 42lb ? Then why add 36lb ? And why just for the ocean ?

 Yet British fitted their larger lineships  with 32 pounders, while staying successfull.

Edited by Baptiste Gallouédec

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8 minutes ago, Lieste said:

French/Spanish 36 livre was broadly equivalent to 40lb, partly differences in the lb and partly higher gauge... and not a world away from the 42lb gun....

It is certainly not 'like a 32lb'.

Some other nations with a 'light' pound will differ.

but that is some kind of balancing that we need, even if we need to program in cannons from the nations that we have (and it would be awesome if we could). For instance playing as pirate gives you the option to fit the ship as wanted, but with heavy penalties if the ship becomes unstable. French players should keep to french values on their ships e.g, hms victory can only fit upto 36 pd since its in the "french" navy, while a british l'ocean class ship can fit 42pd cannons. This would also give nations abit variety and difference between them

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31 minutes ago, Lieste said:

French/Spanish 36 livre was broadly equivalent to 40lb, partly differences in the lb and partly higher gauge... and not a world away from the 42lb gun....

It is certainly not 'like a 32lb'.

Some other nations with a 'light' pound will differ.

if you set 1x 42pd and 1x 36pd next to each other, yes there is more or less no difference, but when you have 34x 42pd and 34x 36pd the difference between the broadside weight becomes bigger. Same as if you measure the weight difference, 1x 42pd is 3k kg 1x36pd is 2,5k kg, 32x 42pd is 96k kg and 32x 36pd is 80k kg

Edited by Wyy

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On 8/27/2018 at 9:55 PM, Fluffy Fishy said:

The other benefits of this is you could reassess which ships could potentially equip each class of cannon more precisely, potentially leaving the most powerful 42lb for Pavel, Victory and leaving Ocean, Santissima, Téméraire, Bucentaure and Wreker equipped with the slightly smaller calibre of 36lb gun, this would not only give a slightly more realistic historic armament flavour but also create a nice little way to look at balance more seriously, with the 36lb gun being a little worse on the DPS, which allows both Pavel and Victory to be more competitive amongst their similarly rated ships, hopefully promoting more variety in combat.

As a little side note I'm uncertain whether Ocean would be able to carry 42s or not, the 300kg difference between the French 36 and the British shortest variant of the 42 isn't hugely significant to a ship the size of Ocean although it would be a nice balance point, meanwhile I severely doubt Santissima would be able to mount the British 42 safely, had she not been wrecked in the storm and then enlisted into the British fleet following Trafalgar I can't see her being armed with anything heavier than the British 32s.

To summarise, please could we consider splitting the 42 and 36lb guns up into separate classes to avoid potential balance issues with the current ships in development but also add more flavour and realistic armaments to the various ships we already have in game for the pursuit of balance and accuracy.

Thanks for reading.

The only reason for reserving 42pds for pavel and vic would be from a gameplay standpoint - don't forget that the french weights were heavier than the british equivalents.. In reality the french 8pds were british 9pds and the french 36pds is not that far off from a british 42pds.. I don't see a reason tho why vics and santis can't mount 36pds (unless it has changed) and I agree that the Santissima Trinidad after it's rework prob wouldn't be able to mount 42pds but I can't say for certain... annoyingly enough..

I do agree tho that a reassesment of the guns would be good. I do however believe that devs should basically decide on a weight parameter and then stick to that, in short reclassify all guns to the british pounds.. It has always annoyed me that the reno can mount 9pds when the french version mounted the french 8pds, there is however not that much of a difference between the british 9pds to the french 8pds tho so.. well historical accuracy can be taken to far I'm told.... Don't know if I agree tho..

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21 minutes ago, Wyy said:

but that is some kind of balancing that we need, even if we need to program in cannons from the nations that we have (and it would be awesome if we could). For instance playing as pirate gives you the option to fit the ship as wanted, but with heavy penalties if the ship becomes unstable. French players should keep to french values on their ships e.g, hms victory can only fit upto 36 pd since its in the "french" navy, while a british l'ocean class ship can fit 42pd cannons. This would also give nations abit variety and difference between them

Actually pirates would not be able to fit ships as they wanted.. the far majority of armaments on pirate vessels were 4-6pds and not because the pirates wouldn't love anything heavier.. The larger guns tho were only found on warships and since the pirates lacked the know-how to produce guns, and didn't have means of procuring heavier cannons, they basically smacked what they had on the vessels they used. This meant however that the recoil in some cases would be lower which is why some pirates could retrofit merchant vessels with a numerically impressive amount of guns.. I've advocated for more historically accurate pirate mechanics for a while, but even I won't argue that pirates should be limited to 4-6pds and otherwise forced to buy/salvage guns from other players (the proliferation of alts would make it meaningless anyway)..

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