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HachiRoku

Ship Usefulness.

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4 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

But small guns need to pen more. Aggys 24s and 18s need to be able to do damage too. Victory is not too weak but the ocean to strong. 

We will address it but the problem is that addressing it properly requires time and deep thinking and we dont have it - all bandwith goes into menus and icons. Once port ui is finished we will take a long big look on ship final gameplay re balance pass before release. 

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No Admiral has ever said - "Arrange the fleet and stay at an angle!" - and with good reason.

I might be totally off here, but gunpowder age is a lot about about mass ? A musket ball had a fairly standard size for a reason. Any much smaller and can't carry enough energy to do anything, maybe not even punch through the wool/cotton layers of a uniform.

Being hit by a 32 pounder on a Lynx, for example, would shatter the planking seams, alas can angle bounce it. A Constitution, if being the 21 inches(!?) at the gun port , would resist much more that kind of punishment. Let alone something like a ship of the line.

 

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8 minutes ago, admin said:


Shots bounced in history (remember ironsides). We slightly increase effect of angle on ricochet for gameplay reasons (players can reduce incoming damage which is a skill and increases depth).

 

Maybe to much especially after the sailforce update ships turn much faster making most shots bounce. To name its equal to chain before limitation "its easy as clicker heros"

Edited by z4ys

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23 minutes ago, admin said:

 

Remember we once rebalanced the speed curves to absolutely historical sail plan related performance curves and now all frigates are almost the same (because sailplans are very similar). We are not making this mistake one more time (and will tune the curves to give more flair to ships). 

 

Yet then you proudly write in Steam store how realistic sailing this game has. If ships have similar sail design they should perform similar as well only dffrence would be their speed, turn rate and how much ship heels.

This would made game less about who has better mods,ship it will be more of skill game plus people will choose ships more on their look than just look witch ship is better

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1 minute ago, Intrepido said:

I think we should come to a compromise between historical accuracy (which is hard to fully achieve) and gameplay.

If not, we will have many ships being discarded in pvp and rvr (in pve it doesn't really matters).

My fix for the balance among the ships of line.

Santi has a huge problem. Everything pens, her HP should be higher to compensate. 

At the same time, I would decrease the HP and thickness difference between 2nd rates and first rates. The buc is useless in a fight against an Ocean. 

Pavel is among the worst ships in the game. Slow, heels a lot, not enogh turn rate, the upper decks are filled with 6lb cannons!, the rudder is always broken... Before pavel had some upwind capabilities that made her a bit more useful.

I wouldn't say Bellona is OP. I think she is a sweet spot.

then what do we do with Constitution she is underperforming she needs proper look(is worked on by devs) next issue is speed with 11,69kn she is too slow?

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Just a thing... majority of frigates existed to - protect trade ( overpower corsairs, privateers, pirates ) and to attack targets of opportunity ( enemy trade convoys ). They could and would engage enemy ships, of equal and many times stronger, to ensure supremacy. Frigates it is all about controlling the sea lanes - fast, reliable and cheap ( compared to SOLs ) deployment for logistical and strategic reasons.

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32 minutes ago, admin said:

We will address it but the problem is that addressing it properly requires time and deep thinking and we dont have it - all bandwith goes into menus and icons. Once port ui is finished we will take a long big look on ship final gameplay re balance pass before release. 

I have a dream that little ships and big ships can fight together without being br fillers. 

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Just now, Banished Privateer said:

You forget gun size. If everything is the same, why from 5th rates players would choose other ships that don't carry 24pd longs (Endymion, Indefatigable) or 42pd/32pd carronades (quite a few) + the game makes bow & stern chasers very critical and important in this game. This is what really offsets balance between some ships.

not really i was talking about sail plans admin said they tried and ships with similar sail design behaved too similarly gun sizes here do not matter when we talking about similar sailing performance, but i do agree with what you wrote

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I have similar issues with shallow ships.

Before the dlc ships, we had a "relatively" balanced matchup between the hvy rattlesnake, prince, and niagara. The rattlesnake was clearly ahead of the others, but not so far as to be the only ship used. I am well aware that the navy brig and mercury we having trouble though.

I am all about balancing ships to make them have a use or be used more.

I would say the bellona become powerful because the wasa got nerfed. I know there is more to it, but it is a contributing factor.

 

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^^ true then we can talk here constructively how do we properly include both DLC ships into shallow waters so other ships will be used again and without completly destroy both DLC ships

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57 minutes ago, admin said:

Fully understand your reaction. But
Shots bounced in history (remember ironsides). We slightly increase effect of angle on ricochet for gameplay reasons (players can reduce incoming damage which is a skill and increases depth). (and the bigger angle the bigger the effect).

Remember we once rebalanced the speed curves to absolutely historical sail plan related performance curves and now all frigates are almost the same (because sailplans are very similar). We are not making this mistake one more time (and will tune the curves to give more flair to ships). 

I like the importance of the angle of the hull to bounce balls and agree that it should be a way to balance strength of ships aswell as a captain skill. Connstitution should bounce more to make up for her pitiful turnrate for example... I also don't see a problem with Ocean and think the other first rates should be buffed instead. If someone builds a L/WO Ocean to be slow like a turtle he should have the turtles armor aswell. High armor and good hull shape to ricochet should come at the cost of speed and turnrate, which it does for the Ocean. You shouldn't listen to whining and complaining from people who want to sink first rates in their frigates but rather buff Victory and Santi to be on level with the Ocean.

The counter to tanky oceans should be kiting, boarding and the mortar brig. Buffing the Mortar Brig vs slow and heavy ships like the thicc L'Oceans would help a lot and give more depth to fleet composition ( MB, MB guarding and MB hunting ). I feel like the MB is a bit on the underperforming side at the moment and making it more important / potent in battles would make them more interesting and also indirectly nerf dreadnought Oceans.

 

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1 hour ago, admin said:

(and will tune the curves to give more flair to ships)

Oh, good!

I liked it better when we had more flair. 

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17 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

9 pounders need to pen an ocean with ease and not just at the perfect angle. 

Smaller 5th rates need mast hp buffs. We can all agree on that.

I totally disagree to those two statements because they make smaller ships a larger threat towards big ships, that they already are. This is not needed and the wrong way to go IMO.

Overall I do agree with most of your points though. Repairs needs a rework - I like the idea of a TINY constant repair through out battle, consuming repairs. This will end the sudden magic resurrection of crew and ship health we have now.

Le Requin, Bellona and L'Ocean needs nerfing to balance them to the rest of the ships and make the other ships more attractive. 
Le Requin: Nerfing the mast and hull thickness of Le Requin, making it even weaker and to counter it's escape capability with demasting. Also increase BR because of crew, dps and to make it less attarctive in RvR.
Bellona: Up the BR closer to St Pavel and nerf the base speed a bit. 
L'Ocean: Reduce base thickness with 10. If the hull shape still gives it an advantage over Santissima then BR should be the highest for L'Ocean!

Wasa and St Pavel needs a buff.
Wasa: Make it a 4. rate (more powerful skill books can be used). 
St Pavel: Either it needs more speed and maneuverability, thats why I used to use it. Or it needs larger middle and upper deck cannons to improve fighting capabilities. 

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2 minutes ago, Tiedemann said:

Wasa: Make it a 4. rate (more powerful skill books can be used). 

Déjà-vu

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8 minutes ago, Tiedemann said:

I totally disagree to those two statements because they make smaller ships a larger threat towards big ships, that they already are. This is not needed and the wrong way to go IMO.

Overall I do agree with most of your points though. Repairs needs a rework - I like the idea of a TINY constant repair through out battle, consuming repairs. This will end the sudden magic resurrection of crew and ship health we have now.

Le Requin, Bellona and L'Ocean needs nerfing to balance them to the rest of the ships and make the other ships more attractive. 
Le Requin: Nerfing the mast and hull thickness of Le Requin, making it even weaker and to counter it's escape capability with demasting. Also increase BR because of crew, dps and to make it less attarctive in RvR.
Bellona: Up the BR closer to St Pavel and nerf the base speed a bit. 
L'Ocean: Reduce base thickness with 10. If the hull shape still gives it an advantage over Santissima then BR should be the highest for L'Ocean!

Wasa and St Pavel needs a buff.
Wasa: Make it a 4. rate (more powerful skill books can be used). 
St Pavel: Either it needs more speed and maneuverability, thats why I used to use it. Or it needs larger middle and upper deck cannons to improve fighting capabilities. 

Yeah you buff ship stats on bigger ships you increase the gap more with 4th and 5th rates. If an aggy is buffed to be useful in port battles it will be unbeatable by larger frigates. Big ships should only have a broadside weight advantage and a some hp. A ship like a trinco has the broadside weight of a 3rd rate yet all its 32s and 18s bounce of of an ocean or Bellona. Smaller ships are "op" because of their turn rates relative to big ships. By small I mean 6th rates because 5th rates are mostly well balanced. Armor thickness didn't matter in sea trials and Santis still were beasts. 1st rates will always have a huge broadside weight over any other ships. 

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58 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

I have a dream that little ships and big ships can fight together without being br fillers. 

@HachiRoku

 

Is this too left field, real life ship or Captain relationships offer bonuses when sailed together?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Agamemnon_(1781)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Victory

 

Lord Nelson’s favorite and his flag. When these two sails together even though they are of different rates they both get multiplier buffs. They did sail together in 1781 under Admiral Kempenfelts squadron of 18 ships he in the Victory ordered the Aggie to intercept a convoy.

This backstory could build from Out of Game content Campaigns.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Bucentaure_(1803)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_ship_Nuestra_Señora_de_la_Santísima_Trinidad

French Flag ship Bucentaure and Spanish Flag ship Santisima both sailed together at Trafalgar

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Essex_(1799)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Constitution

Both served together in the First Barbary War

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_campaigns,_operations_and_battles_of_the_Napoleonic_Wars

 

Just with a little research you can find loads of relationships between ships of differing rates. To encourage different rated ships to sail together with a practical realistic back story. Its just another mod that’s all...

 

Norfolk.

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1 hour ago, admin said:

Remember we once rebalanced the speed curves to absolutely historical sail plan related performance curves and now all frigates are almost the same (because sailplans are very similar). We are not making this mistake one more time (and will tune the curves to give more flair to ships). 

Now, this is a interesting point. As far as I can tell, this has two reasons.

 

First:  we don´t have variable winds in-game. Based on contemporary sailing reports, some frigates would be absolute flyers when sailing in light to medium winds  - e.g. La Renommée - , but their performance would suffer tremendously in heavier wind conditions. Again, the perfect example for this would be La Renommée, but it would also be true for most of the smaller vessels, the prime candidate would probably be the Prince de Neufchatel.

On the other hand, some, especially the larger frigates, needed a good, strong wind to reach higher speeds and, due to their displacement, weren´t affected as much by higher/deeper waves and lost less speed due to pitching. And they were usually stiffer, had - on average - better balanced spar dimensions and thus could carry their canvas longer.

To cut a long story short: the historical 13 - 13,5 knots top speed for La Renommée weren't reached in the same conditions (or course, for that matter) as the 13 to 13,5 knots of the Trinc. Yet ingame they´re lumped together, because we always have the same wind speed.

 

Second: most of the frigates came into the game by popular vote (or by a 'perceived' demand for them). It´s logical that very few people would vote for a ship that had the performance of a barn with sails attached and chose ships based on their reputation for speed.

The problem with that is that if all ships are fast, none is.

Interestingly, the two ships that have less than favourable sailing reports - Surprise and Essex -  still perform adequately in-game. Of course, the sailing report of the Essex was made on her journey to England and she wasn´t exactly in mint condition, so to speak. That leaves the Surprise, which in reality under-performed in every imaginable way.

 

1 hour ago, admin said:

But
Shots bounced in history (remember ironsides).

Well, sure, balls did bounce of hulls or got stuck in the planking. But this happened under specific circumstances. The main culprit for this usually was the use of double shot with half charge. The most damage you could do to a hull structure (and the crew behind it) was when the ball just barely penetrated the hull. And this was most of the time accomplished by using double shot. Sometimes it didn´t work, though :P

An 18-pounder ball powered by standard charge shouldn´t have problems penetrating a 'thick' hull at pretty much any realistic angle and range. At least, that´s the impression I got after reading a lot of contemporary accounts over the years. And remember, the 'fir' Shannon turned the decks of the LO Chesapeake into a slaughterhouse within 15 minutes or so. There might be problems recreating this in-game in the current state of things.

 

A couple of words on the 'sloped armour'. Ships were given tumblehome to bring the weight of the upper guns closer the center. This was the sole reason they did this. Period.

This reduced the 'deep' rolling of vessels with a lot of top weight and made them more stable gun platforms, but, especially on frigates, could make them 'jerky' in some cases (less rolling but with short intervals, could damage the rigging). Another downside of a great tumblehome was that the masts couldn´t be stayed adequately because of the reduced angle between chainplates and mastheads.

 

Edited by Malachi
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9 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

Déjà-vu

Exactly. Buffing every weak ship to be competitive with big ships doesn't work. Make cannon poundage less important for hull bashing and broadside weight will matter again. 

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9 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Make cannon poundage less important for hull bashing and broadside weight will matter

What ?... I don't get this.

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Ain't no way am I allowing the wasa to be a 4th rate again.

Buff it to balance it with other lineships? Sure. But it has a bow and stern chaser advantage to all other ships.

 

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2 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

What ?... I don't get this.

If 2 aggys are firing at an 1 ocean at 250 in theory and in reality they would out dps the ocean. This is not necessarily the case in game because the 18s and 9s of the aggys will not pen. 18s maybe at a perfect angle but a perfect angle is just so easy to deny an opponent. If armor values are slightly decreased 2 aggys will out dps 1 ocean in line fighting. Ocean will always have the massive broadside anyway. It would need to be done the right way because we don't want 25 aggys in port battles either. Gun poundage and pen have nothing to do with each other. Not exactly but velocity is way more important. 

 

 

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mass and velocity ? I mean, 18's are the best combo of shot weight, velocity by charge of powder used ( if i'm not mistaken ). @Lieste could help.

Still no way it will damage more than a 42 hitting your planks. Just the sheer mass at lower speed will shatter seams and energy transfer a lot to the inside.

But regarding game, we have too much emphasis on one and very little on the other. Mass of shot should be more felt. A broadside of a 74 on a cruise frigate should be crippling.

The frigate captains must understand the risk and accept the consequence of mistakes.

That's how i see it in the future, if possible and agreeable by all.

The extreme example I gave, schooners bouncing the 32 pounders is real in game but even at a angle the shattering and breaking loose of planking would be severe.

No wonder super frigates avoided a lot the british SOLs. They knew that broadside weight would tell in the first 15 minutes.

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2 hours ago, admin said:

We will address it but the problem is that addressing it properly requires time and deep thinking and we dont have it - all bandwith goes into menus and icons. Once port ui is finished we will take a long big look on ship final gameplay re balance pass before release. 

I hope so, because point blank (as in side to side hugging tactic point blank) the 6pd dont pen a live oak/white oak l'ocean, I was in a battle against one  the 6pd longs I had bounced in the l'ocean and over my own weatherdeck and in the water on the other side :)

Edited by Guest

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