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HachiRoku

Ship Usefulness.

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Lately people have been talking about why certain ships are just useless in game. We have ships of the line like the santi, vic, pavel, buc, bellona, wasa, aggy that just seem to be br fillers in port battles. There is no doubt in my mind that in 2016 we had a lot more variety sailing in open sea. Small ships, frigates. I cannot think of a ship that was never used. 

There are a few things that cause problems but the one major thing I can think of is Armour and oceans. Its to much. The ocean is a brick. Can't sail, can't tack, can't do anything other than tank and she does that so good she makes every other line ship obsolete in comparison. The santi will never be competitive against the ocean unless the model is redone and that will not happen. Santi with 100cm of armour is not equal to ocean with 100cm. In reality the ocean might have an effective armour value of 110cm. There is a new connie model in development and how do you balance a connies real hull shape? It would be bounce poule 2.0 on steroids. 

armorangles.jpg

The second issue is the repairs. If an ocean has 15000hp and repairs 5 times in a port battle she will get way more hp back over any other ship. Armour makes this even worse because since you cannot pen her in the meantime. Since chain was limited/distance nerfed people don't really chain either because in line ship battles you can only chain when your in effective brawling range. You can't waste time chaining if youre been sank right? This limits tactical options in battles.

These issues are also in open sea pvp. The bellona is a great example. With spanish rig she can be fast. As fast as any frigate. Even without spanish rig the bellona is fast. She has alot of hp and fighting the smaller guns of frigates she will bounce most guns with ease because ships in game turn far to good. The bellona is to open sea what the ocean is in port battles. If smaller guns could do more damage to bigger ships it would give ships like a pavels a chance in a battle against 1st rates. Sure BR might need some more balancing but 9 pounders need to pen an ocean with ease and not just at the perfect angle. Ships in game can just turn to fast. Angling is to easy. They way we do 1v1s angling our ships is a joke.  

Smaller 5th rates need mast hp buffs. We can all agree on that. I don't really want to get into masts to much because I could write a book about it. 

Last but not lease is rum. Rum is just a bit over the top. It should never have been added. The most deadly thing in reality that could have happend to a ship is a stern rake. In big ships a stern rake is not as deadly as in smaller ships. Multi reps and rum is not that bad in smaller ships. The timers just get worse because in bigger ships everything is slower. The timer system doesn't scale well. Besides that Rum and Determined defender just don't work. I like DD before rum and never understood why it was removed. Back then it made sense and was removed now it makes none and its here to stay. I get that you want gold sinks in late game but this is not the way.  

I do not know if Im right with my points here but what I do know is that we had more ship variety sailing around in 2016 and it was not because of rank in game. I think anyone that has been in naval action since then will agree. What has changed since then? Why is bigger and tankier so much more important now? Leeway could also be a reason. Line ships tend to turn far to good in reverse and even worse is that after reversing to block someone from getting to their badside or stern they accelerate way to fast. Its impossible to get stuck in irons in a bellona. An endymion is more likely to. 

 

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Personally, I´m fine with Bellona-third rates performance in OW battles, it is somewhat historical.

Although the main problem comes to port battles when santi, vic, pavel (maybe buc too?), all 4th rates, reno, hermione, surprise, frigate are underperforming so badly. I think you miss here the heeling of some ships. Pavel, belle poule, vic, renomee... are prone to geting leaked. That´s a weakness that sometimes requieres a change of perks or investing slots to compensate.

 

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15 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Personally, I´m fine with Bellona-third rates performance in OW battles, it is somewhat historical.

Although the main problem comes to port battles when santi, vic, pavel (maybe buc too?), all 4th rates, reno, hermione, surprise, frigate are underperforming so badly. I think you miss here the heeling of some ships. Pavel, belle poule, vic, renomee... are prone to geting leaked. That´s a weakness that sometimes requieres a change of perks or investing slots to compensate.

 

Pavels and Vics to a certain extent but leaks can be avoided and I have yet to sink a vic to them. Still, in battle vs an ocean I feel like I have no chance. 

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bouncing...angling...armour...words like this shouldn't have much importance in an Age of Sail game. Yet they do and that just feels wrong.

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4 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Pavels and Vics to a certain extent but leaks can be avoided and I have yet to sink a vic to them. Still, in battle vs an ocean I feel like I have no chance. 

Sure, they can be avoided but it requires an extra effort from the player. And in a big battle there are already so many things to pay attention to.

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2 minutes ago, Malachi said:

bouncing...angling...armour...words like this shouldn't have much importance in an Age of Sail game. Yet they do and that just feels wrong.

Wrong USS Constitution coused severe issues to British frigates becouse of her hull

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Uhm, yeah, her hull. Not her 24-pounders, not her very well drilled crews, not her experienced captains.

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Non penetrating hits should do more damage to side planking strength in my opinion, without damaging much crew or center hull. That's a compromise between old sea trials (angling didnt matter much) and new (thickness and angle > all) that would allow currently off meta ships to be effective while still making thick armor beneficial.

8 minutes ago, Lovec1990 said:

Wrong USS Constitution coused severe issues to British frigates becouse of her hull

Correct, this did give the guerriere (sorry spelling) grief but that was at an extreme angle while the two ships were locked together at the bow sprit (or stern, can't remember). Not "slightly imperfect" angles that are still close to 90°causing 24 and 32 pound longs to harmlessly bounce off like golfballs en mass.

Edited by Capt Aerobane

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19 minutes ago, Capt Aerobane said:

Correct, this did give the guerriere (sorry spelling) grief but that was at an extreme angle while the two ships were locked together at the bow sprit (or stern, can't remember). Not "slightly imperfect" angles that are still close to 90°causing 24 and 32 pound longs to harmlessly bounce off like golfballs en mass.

True but it cannot be denied that connies hull design was very strong compared too what others had in game that would mean at minimum LO/WO+copper Constitution doing 14kn witch would be game braking plus with proper hull angles we will get with new connie it would make her so OP but we will not get her real life Performance.

Edited by Lovec1990
correction it was 14kn

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37 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Sure, they can be avoided but it requires an extra effort from the player. And in a big battle there are already so many things to pay attention to.

There is one thing that is more important than everything else. Having the wind. If you have the wind you don't need to worry about leaks. Thats the thing. A VIC fleet will still lose. 

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1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

Lately people have been talking about why certain ships are just useless in game. We have ships of the line like the santi, vic, pavel, buc, bellona, wasa, aggy that just seem to be br fillers in port battles. There is no doubt in my mind that in 2016 we had a lot more variety sailing in open sea. Small ships, frigates. I cannot think of a ship that was never used. 

3rd rate so much of a BR filler you even forgot to write it in a thread about ships not being used

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I think that every ship type is unique, they all have their strengths and weaknesses and like beauty, is very much in the eye of the beholder.  The first rates, I think, are very much stereotyped. The L'Ocean for her defensive hull strength, the Santi for her firepower, and the Victory for her agility, there does appear to me, a tendency for using a single class, rather than a variety of classes, to me that feels counter productive. That does not make such usage wrong, but, in some circumstances it can be the difference between winning, ships escaping, or, losing a battle due to lack of flexibility,  in the same way that a lack of 2nd and 3rd rates can, they are more than capable of administering a coup de grace to a damaged 1st rate, freeing up 1st rates to concentrate on more capable 1st rates. 

Equally, a lack of frigates can have the same effect, a well handled Frigate squadron can keep line-ships in battle without serious losses until ships of the line can dispatch them. There are those who dismiss the Trincomalee as useless due to her heel, you, yourself have demonstrated that the Trinc is far from useless, handled well, she is as effective as any other ship despite her lack of chasers, which makes her of little use in a stern chase, unless a ship of comparable speed with chasers co-operates.

In essence, it is not just the ships, but, the perception of those ships, the ability of their Captains, and indeed Fleet Commanders, that often win battles.

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In my clan we used to have victories for PBs because of the BR difference with a Santi and an Ocean depending of the size of the battle we could add one more ship... but when they started leaking like crazy we switched to Oceans.

And when thinking about it, ship diversity or lake of it is more a symptom of laziness... You learn one ship (get the 5 knowledge unlocked)  and then kind of stay with it.

I try to use more than one ship in OW battle. Sometimes I have the choice to bring whatever I want and others I have to do with what I have in that particular port. 

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1 hour ago, Sir Lancelot Holland said:

I think that every ship type is unique, they all have their strengths and weaknesses and like beauty, is very much in the eye of the beholder.  The first rates, I think, are very much stereotyped. The L'Ocean for her defensive hull strength, the Santi for her firepower, and the Victory for her agility, there does appear to me, a tendency for using a single class, rather than a variety of classes, to me that feels counter productive. That does not make such usage wrong, but, in some circumstances it can be the difference between winning, ships escaping, or, losing a battle due to lack of flexibility,  in the same way that a lack of 2nd and 3rd rates can, they are more than capable of administering a coup de grace to a damaged 1st rate, freeing up 1st rates to concentrate on more capable 1st rates. 

Equally, a lack of frigates can have the same effect, a well handled Frigate squadron can keep line-ships in battle without serious losses until ships of the line can dispatch them. There are those who dismiss the Trincomalee as useless due to her heel, you, yourself have demonstrated that the Trinc is far from useless, handled well, she is as effective as any other ship despite her lack of chasers, which makes her of little use in a stern chase, unless a ship of comparable speed with chasers co-operates.

In essence, it is not just the ships, but, the perception of those ships, the ability of their Captains, and indeed Fleet Commanders, that often win battles.

short: you are wrong. ships are picked by numbers. portbattles are very competitive and OW is too. 2nds ? vanished.  3rd rate? nope.  4th rates? hahaha hell no. Only the 15.5kn OW ships but else, nope.

 

Atm I have 2 ships in every outpost I have:   A ocean (and some santis due to wrong order) and bellonas. All other ships are basicly useless except DLC ships ofc

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4 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

- snap -

L'Oceans hull angle is about 25°, effectively giving it an 8% thickness buff (which, of course, is applied after all other bonuses). It should be the thickness king, with Santi being the HP king. Buff Santi to 12k (from 11.5k) and nerf L'Ocean to 11k (from 12k). The thickness meta has to do with the last Live Oak buff. It went from 10% to 15% thickness and from 0,5% to 7,5% HP. Before this change we would use T/WO, giving only 5% less thickness than LO/WO was not worth the drawbacks in speed and agility. We need a serious wood rebalance, Teak frames have always been way too good, and most woods are not used.

I dont see the problem with Rum though tbh. 25% in 25 mins is really not that much. Maybe we need to reduce repair time even more, from 5 to 10 mins. The only real problem is DD here which i agree is too strong. Theres almost no boarding happening anymore (which is not that bad, i hope we get a good boarding system one day).

Sure, repairing 5 times effectively double your HP (even more if you use mods). But you also have to eat the damage, split it between your sides, get out of focus again, spend crew activity on repairing... its not that easy! Also Hachi, do the math... HP mods increase your repairs too since theyre percent based. A 10% HP mod increases your base repair by 2%... if you have carpenter perk 2,5%... and so on. It does not make sense to nerf repair mods even more, but i have two suggestions: split mods, some only for hull repair, some only for sails repair. Other option is to change the battle repair cooldown: It starts when your repair went through. This would also make repair time mods more meaningful again but slow down overall repair, especially on big ships.

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On 8/22/2018 at 7:33 PM, Batman said:

@Fluffy Fishy do you know whats the effective armour thickness of L'Ocean compared to Victory and Santi?

I can't say for certain about effective armour because I haven't got great information on the actual hull angles given but the standard hull thickness was something I had collected for the 3 ships over time.

Rough Thickness at waterline without angling is:

  • Victory: 2'1"
  • L'Ocean: 1'10"
  • Santissima 1'6"

Most of them have fairly similar angling to be fair, there isn't a huge amount in it.

Here are the plans for comparison:


Commerce de Marseille:
large.jpg

 

Santissima Trinidad:
post-24216-0-71660000-1476008208.jpg

 

Victory:
large.jpg

Realistically speaking and looking at these hulls, Victory is not only the most angled, but also the thickest of the bunch, with the added benefit of easily being the best sailor of the group too. Victory being followed by Commerce de Marsaille, followed by Santissima, when it comes to angling. When looking at sailing characteristics Santissima is also the slowest and poorest sailor, being designed to carry 116 guns, but upgraded to carry 140, with the quite dramatic affect this had on the ship. When it comes to size, Ocean is clearly the largest, followed by Santissima followed by Victory.

Something else to compare these ships with are their repsective firepower when compared to each other properly with calculations to convert local poundage to kg with broadside weight. Again you have to take a little bit of historical pinch of salt here, as British cannon were notably best, with french cannon being 2nd best and spanish worst, with regards to technological and productive ability.

Weight of broadside (highest used)

  • Ocean: 1500 livvre or 733.5 kg
  • Victory: 1328 pounds or 601.58 kg
  • Santissima: 1472 libre or 675.65 kg

Its probably also worth mentioning on the side that I sincerely doubt Santissima could carry the in game 42 pound guns,  and should probably be limited to 36s, Ocean is somewhat dubious too, but she could probably get away with it with a massive hit to performance, while Victory could carry 42 pounders but found it had a severe effect on her handling and she performed much better in combat and sailing with 32 pounders.

The other things to consider when looking at the historical ships are the wood types, Ocean was built from a bit of a mix of European Oak and Holly Oak due to the short supply of timber in France during the period, the majority of her is European oak though because its the better shipbuilding wood for heavy ships. Santissima was built mainly from mahoganny, which is also a slightly weaker wood than European oak. Victory was made from carefully selected Weald English oak, although her rebuild timbers from her repairs and rebuilds in 1787, 1800 and 1814 were slightly less high quality each time compared to her original wood from 1765 also due to timber shortages.

If you are to use these historical references to balance the ships you will get the following:

  • Ocean: Highest HP, middle sailor, middle thickness, middle angle, highest broadside weight, middle guns, middle crew.
  • Santissima: Middle HP, worst sailor, worst thickness, lowest angle, middle broadside weight, highest guns, most crew.
  • Victory: lowest hp, best thickness, highest angle, best sailor, lowest broadside weight, lowest guns, least crew.

Hope this helps. If you wish to take a protractor to the actual angles of the hulls be my guest, I don't have one to hand though, I'd really enjoy seeing the results though. :)

Edited by Fluffy Fishy
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Ship structures under sail and under gunfire

By Prof. Francisco Fernández-González

http://oa.upm.es/1520/1/PONEN_FRANCISCO_FERNANDEZ_GONZALEZ_01.pdf

 

If you want to deep dive the 74-gun Bellona, Victory or Santisima and the Constitution. This is it. Models at the end and different construct methods of the French to Spanish and English and why.

Might be more @Fluffy Fishy area of expertise.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloped_armour

 

 

NnC

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Well you already tackled 1st rates so i will look how too make Constitution useful lets use current model her speed is 11,69kn i would buff it to around 12.35kn

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10 hours ago, Havelock said:

L'Oceans hull angle is about 25°, effectively giving it an 8% thickness buff (which, of course, is applied after all other bonuses). It should be the thickness king, with Santi being the HP king. Buff Santi to 12k (from 11.5k) and nerf L'Ocean to 11k (from 12k). The thickness meta has to do with the last Live Oak buff. It went from 10% to 15% thickness and from 0,5% to 7,5% HP. Before this change we would use T/WO, giving only 5% less thickness than LO/WO was not worth the drawbacks in speed and agility. We need a serious wood rebalance, Teak frames have always been way too good, and most woods are not used.

I dont see the problem with Rum though tbh. 25% in 25 mins is really not that much. Maybe we need to reduce repair time even more, from 5 to 10 mins. The only real problem is DD here which i agree is too strong. Theres almost no boarding happening anymore (which is not that bad, i hope we get a good boarding system one day).

Sure, repairing 5 times effectively double your HP (even more if you use mods). But you also have to eat the damage, split it between your sides, get out of focus again, spend crew activity on repairing... its not that easy! Also Hachi, do the math... HP mods increase your repairs too since theyre percent based. A 10% HP mod increases your base repair by 2%... if you have carpenter perk 2,5%... and so on. It does not make sense to nerf repair mods even more, but i have two suggestions: split mods, some only for hull repair, some only for sails repair. Other option is to change the battle repair cooldown: It starts when your repair went through. This would also make repair time mods more meaningful again but slow down overall repair, especially on big ships.

Splitting mods will cause more issues than not. 

 

10 hours ago, Havelock said:

L'Oceans hull angle is about 25°, effectively giving it an 8% thickness buff (which, of course, is applied after all other bonuses). It should be the thickness king, with Santi being the HP king. Buff Santi to 12k (from 11.5k) and nerf L'Ocean to 11k (from 12k). The thickness meta has to do with the last Live Oak buff. It went from 10% to 15% thickness and from 0,5% to 7,5% HP. Before this change we would use T/WO, giving only 5% less thickness than LO/WO was not worth the drawbacks in speed and agility. We need a serious wood rebalance, Teak frames have always been way too good, and most woods are not used.

I dont see the problem with Rum though tbh. 25% in 25 mins is really not that much. Maybe we need to reduce repair time even more, from 5 to 10 mins. The only real problem is DD here which i agree is too strong. Theres almost no boarding happening anymore (which is not that bad, i hope we get a good boarding system one day).

Sure, repairing 5 times effectively double your HP (even more if you use mods). But you also have to eat the damage, split it between your sides, get out of focus again, spend crew activity on repairing... its not that easy! Also Hachi, do the math... HP mods increase your repairs too since theyre percent based. A 10% HP mod increases your base repair by 2%... if you have carpenter perk 2,5%... and so on. It does not make sense to nerf repair mods even more, but i have two suggestions: split mods, some only for hull repair, some only for sails repair. Other option is to change the battle repair cooldown: It starts when your repair went through. This would also make repair time mods more meaningful again but slow down overall repair, especially on big ships.

You right and your wrong. There are multiple ways to fix this issue. Either you rebalance all hp mods, limit the repair mods you can use and then wait for more issues to come up. Or you can limit repairs. I know you like multiple reps but they make every meta worse. Why don't we just test the sea trials repair system with the new structure system. The fact that a ship in a port battle that is almost sinking can get away and return to the battle in 30 min after 3 reps is just a joke. I don't care how hard it is to survive. 

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9 hours ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

I can't say for certain about effective armour because I haven't got great information on the actual hull angles given but the standard hull thickness was something I had collected for the 3 ships over time.

Rough Thickness at waterline without angling is:

  • Victory: 2'1"
  • L'Ocean: 1'9"
  • Santissima 1'6"

Most of them have fairly similar angling to be fair, there isn't a huge amount in it.

Here are the plans for comparison:


Commerce de Marseille:
large.jpg

 

Santissima Trinidad:
post-24216-0-71660000-1476008208.jpg

 

Victory:
large.jpg

Realistically speaking and looking at these hulls, Victory is not only the most angled, but also the thickest of the bunch, with the added benefit of easily being the best sailor of the group too. Victory being followed by Commerce de Marsaille, followed by Santissima, when it comes to angling. When looking at sailing characteristics Santissima is also the slowest and poorest sailor, being designed to carry 116 guns, but upgraded to carry 140, with the quite dramatic affect this had on the ship. When it comes to size, Ocean is clearly the largest, followed by Santissima followed by Victory.

Something else to compare these ships with are their repsective firepower when compared to each other properly with calculations to convert local poundage to kg with broadside weight. Again you have to take a little bit of historical pinch of salt here, as British cannon were notably best, with french cannon being 2nd best and spanish worst, with regards to technological and productive ability.

Weight of broadside (highest used)

  • Ocean: 1500 livvre or 733.5 kg
  • Victory: 1328 pounds or 601.58 kg
  • Santissima: 1472 libre or 675.65 kg

Its probably also worth mentioning on the side that I sincerely doubt Santissima could carry the in game 42 pound guns,  and should probably be limited to 36s, Ocean is somewhat dubious too, but she could probably get away with it with a massive hit to performance, while Victory could carry 42 pounders but found it had a severe effect on her handling and she performed much better in combat and sailing with 32 pounders.

The other things to consider when looking at the historical ships are the wood types, Ocean was built from a bit of a mix of European Oak and Holly Oak due to the short supply of timber in France during the period, the majority of her is European oak though because its the better shipbuilding wood for heavy ships. Santissima was built mainly from mahoganny, which is also a slightly weaker wood than European oak. Victory was made from carefully selected Weald English oak, although her rebuild timbers from her repairs and rebuilds in 1787, 1800 and 1814 were slightly less high quality each time compared to her original wood from 1765 also due to timber shortages.

If you are to use these historical facts to balance the ships you will get the following:

  • Ocean: Highest HP, middle sailor, middle thickness, middle angle, highest broadside, middle guns, middle crew.
  • Santissima: Middle HP, worst sailor, worst thickness, lowest angle, middle firepower, highest guns, most crew.
  • Victory: lowest hp, best thickness, highest angle, best sailor, lowest firepower, lowest guns, least crew.

Hope this helps. If you wish to take a protractor to the actual angles of the hulls be my guest, I don't have one to hand though, I'd really enjoy seeing the results though. :)

Yes in real life but angles are calculated based of in game 3d model. The Santis model is not as good as the vic or ocean imo. The Santi in game is almost flat. I am not even confident the Santi model in game would float in real life. Way to much mass on the top end. I'm not a ship designer tho. 

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7 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Yes in real life but angles are calculated based of in game 3d model. The Santis model is not as good as the vic or ocean imo. The Santi in game is almost flat. I am not even confident the Santi model in game would float in real life. Way to much mass on the top end. I'm not a ship designer tho. 

we should avoid real life talks becouse game balance would be somewere in bar drinking bear

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10 hours ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

I can't say for certain about effective armour because I haven't got great information on the actual hull angles given but the standard hull thickness was something I had collected for the 3 ships over time.

Rough Thickness at waterline without angling is:

  • Victory: 2'1"
  • L'Ocean: 1'9"
  • Santissima 1'6"

 

Historically, was there much difference in thickness between 1st and 3rd rate?

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Apologies, I misread my notes, Ocean is about 22 inches, more realistically to 1'10, not 1'9" I have edited the original post. Sorry for the misinformation guys.

28 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Yes in real life but angles are calculated based of in game 3d model. The Santis model is not as good as the vic or ocean imo. The Santi in game is almost flat. I am not even confident the Santi model in game would float in real life. Way to much mass on the top end. I'm not a ship designer tho. 

She would probably just about get away with it but suffer from pretty horrific similar stability issues. She has a massive draught and displacement, which means you can ballast her fairly well, but as she is in game she would probably capsize in moderately rough weather if she mounted her heaviest armament.

7 minutes ago, Borch said:

Historically, was there much difference in thickness between 1st and 3rd rate?

In terms of physical thickness, not a great deal no, typical British third to 1st rates would be around 2ft thick, their third rates would usually be around the 1'7"-1'8" mark. France was the same, although tended to be a little bit lighter by maybe an inch off their British equivalent. Spain would typically be a bit lighter built, with their first rates around 1'6"'1'7" and their thirds around 1'5"-1'6". I'm not too sure about other nations, on a guestimate I would make an informed guess at Russians sticking to similar thickness as Brits, while Denmark and Sweden were more similar to French, Portugal somewhere between French and Spanish, while the Ottomans and Italian states similarly thick to Spanish. Americans liked their ships thick, as is well known, with Constitution being 1'8" thick favouring and expanding on heavy construction used by the Brits.

The main difference in thickness comes from the angling between ratings as has been discussed on this thread a bit, with the larger construction of heavier ships and needing to balance and stabilise them out properly, meaning first rates having to have a much larger difference between their waterline footprint and their weatherdeck footprint, and thus having much stronger angles, although this isn't always the case, it is the general trend as the angular effect on armour was known by designers, although naval gunnery and fighting styles of the period being at the ranges they were at made the different thicknesses much less pronounced than they are in game, something which is clear from the various times Santissima fought multiple opponents, most notably at St VIncent and Trafalgar, her somewhat thinner planking wasn't much of an issue.

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