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L'Ocean: Same problems with the staysails between the mast: Here is a sail plan as a guideline: Nole the lowest staysail between the masts would only be used in storms as otherwise it would foul the waist.

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Overall, the biggest overall issue is that the staysails as they are on many ships in the game would foul with other rigging if they were fitted that way in real life. Please consult Harlands Seamanship In the Age of Sail: To see which rigs would and would not foul.

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20 hours ago, Olikigotho said:

The Lynx in the game is almost exactly the 2001 Lynx, just with deck fittings to resemble a ship of 1812. There are plans of the 1812 Lynx (later HMS Mosquidobit) in Howard I Chapelle's books The Baltimore Clipper and The Search for Speed under Sail. Is this intentional?

It is also noteworthy that the Baltimore clippers were not faster than British Frigates in terms of speed but instead were considerably more Weatherly. This meant that they could beat to windward faster than Frigates but never outsail them downwind. In fact, (because the drag coefficient of in fluids, which is multiplied by the crossectional area of the body, is a function of the length of the object) Lynx, being a small privateer would easily be outpaced by British frigates on most points of sail (that's how she was captured). Only the longest and largest purpose-built privateers ever caught a prize during the war of 1812. Famous examples being, General Armstrong, Prince de Neufchatel, and Chasseur. The statics show that most(slightly more than half) privateers in the war of 1812 were captured and of those that weren't captured, most never took a prize. Nevertheless, the few that were successful probably about 10% of all privateers (around 50 in total), captured over 1000 ships (some were recaptured). 

The British were well aware of the Baltimore clipper design as they conducted experiments with ships like the HMS Flying Fish ex-Baltimore clipper Revenge. They proved unstable and poor gun platforms, hence they were never adopted, the British preferring their local equivalent, the cutter (French equivalent was the lugger). In fact, they were so unstable that many capsized, some even while docked with the sails taken down. The most recent example is the sinking of the Pride of Baltimore in 1986. 

Baltimore clippers were the fastest ships of their size, but not overall, nor were they effective as men-o-war. 

First I would say kudos for your research and posts! 

Regarding the Lynx and other ships in the game that currently still exist or have a modern replica, I believe that the modeling was taken, at least in part, from the actual ships. @admin can confirm but someone I recall reading that. As to the Lynx the shipbuilder acknowledged that she was based on the original but is not an exact replica.  If you are in the US you can sail on her too! I can tell you she is fast in light air.

Second I think that there are more points to add about Baltimore clippers and in particular the tops'l schooner. A lot of what you said about schooners is dependent on the weather conditions. The schooner rig was suited for the weather conditions on the US eastern seaboard, and so was adopted much more readily than in England. I would note that in NA for gameplay purposes square rigged ships can sail much closer to the wind than they were capable of doing IRL (still making headway at 30 degrees, etc.).  So fore and aft rigged ships are made much faster close hauled to account for the loss of that advantage. Also wind is always steady so there is not a situation where the small privateer is overhauled in heavy air by the larger ship or conversely escaping in light air. So a 5th rate or even a large merchant ship may have a higher top speed the question is are the conditions right to hit that speed, or in this case to overhaul the schooner at a given point of sail. 

The fact that the British choose not to adopt the design does not mean that the design was a failure. To the British the Americans were notorious for over canvassing their ships anyway! I would argue that the continued use of the design speaks not of instability but of success. Considering that speed was necessary to run the blockade in the first place.  Consider also that the Baltimore clipper continued into the ACW as blockade runners. Prior to that square rigged ships looking for speed over cargo adopted the clipper hull form. As to the Pride she was hit by a "white" squall an event that could knock down most ships regardless of rig. I know there are issues noted in "Tall Ships Down" but not about the rig in general. Of course they went ahead and built another one with the same hull form and rig. The schooner rig is also easier for a small crew to handle than a square rig. 

On the topic of privateers I am sure you have a source you can share?  I would recommend "A History of American Privateers and Letters of Marque" by George Coggeshall. (1856). It is open source on Google book search. The author was a privateer captain so I know bias, but he uses primary sources for his accounting in general.  Another good one is from the British side and contains the court marshal records and letter regarding a battle between RN mail packets Pelham & Monteque and the American Privateer [schooner] Globe. In the end the privateer did fail to capture either ship, but after closely engaging and boarding one she was able to get away even with damaged rigging, from the fresh second one due to "superior sailing". This was after overhauling them quite easily in the first place. 

Wait, but what does all this have to do with the Endymion ? The Prince beat off a boat attack by the Endymion outnumbered over 2-1 !  I know she was eventually captured a year later but the Navy Board ordered a copy built (according to the wiki anyway). All in good fun for us fans of schooners and shallow water vessels 😉

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10 minutes ago, DeRuyter said:

@admin

 

Wait, but what does all this have to do with the Endymion ? The Prince beat off a boat attack by the Endymion outnumbered over 2-1 !  I know she was eventually captured a year later but the Navy Board ordered a copy built (according to the wiki anyway). All in good fun for us fans of schooners and shallow water vessels 😉

IMAG0306.jpg

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Fixed the windows on the beautiful Endymion to a more british style
2y4hGM1.png

will get to live in september

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On 8/23/2018 at 5:44 PM, Olikigotho said:

Only the longest and largest purpose-built privateers ever caught a prize during the war of 1812. Famous examples being, General Armstrong, Prince de Neufchatel, and Chasseur.

Err, you definitely misspoke there. Privateers had a low success rate, but this was mostly down to luck and skill. No privateer was too slow to catch any prizes, or it wouldn't have been fitted out in the first place.

If Fame of Salem (neither large nor purpose built) could do it, anyone can: https://schoonerfame.com/fame-the-war-of-1812/

Lynx is definitely too small to be particularly fast.

Quote

The British were well aware of the Baltimore clipper design as they conducted experiments with ships like the HMS Flying Fish ex-Baltimore clipper Revenge. They proved unstable and poor gun platforms, hence they were never adopted, the British preferring their local equivalent, the cutter (French equivalent was the lugger). In fact, they were so unstable that many capsized, some even while docked with the sails taken down. The most recent example is the sinking of the Pride of Baltimore in 1986. 

Baltimore clippers were the fastest ships of their size, but not overall, nor were they effective as men-o-war. 

Now that is all highly tendentious. The British and French bought dozens of American schooners into service over several decades. You didn't often see cutters and luggers being tapped for Transatlantic or global service, either.

For what it's worth, Pride of Baltimore II has reached higher speeds than virtually every Napoleonic frigate ever launched, and on a broad reach where a topsail schooner is fastest.

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On 8/24/2018 at 3:52 PM, DeRuyter said:

Regarding the Lynx and other ships in the game that currently still exist or have a modern replica, I believe that the modeling was taken, at least in part, from the actual ships. @admin can confirm but someone I recall reading that. As to the Lynx the shipbuilder acknowledged that she was based on the original but is not an exact replica.  If you are in the US you can sail on her too! I can tell you she is fast in light air.

The Lynx model is definitely the reproduction ship, which differs wildly from the historical vessel. There is essentially no relation.

Quote

As to the Pride she was hit by a "white" squall an event that could knock down most ships regardless of rig. I know there are issues noted in "Tall Ships Down" but not about the rig in general. Of course they went ahead and built another one with the same hull form and rig. The schooner rig is also easier for a small crew to handle than a square rig.😉

Well, let's call a spade a spade here. Pride's stability was deficient. Yes, there was possibly a microburst, but it does not take an extraordinary event to capsize an overcanvased vessel with loads of tophamper and low freeboard. She could have been knocked over by less. She also could have easily survived the squall that claimed her, had the sailplan and response been different. Just as she had faced bad weather on countless other passages.

Likewise, historical Baltimore clippers relied on good seamanship and conservative sailtrim to keep them safe.

Also, Pride II is a very different ship, much heavier with a lower sail area:displacement ratio. AFAIK she is actually faster, though, because she was built for voyages and not as a dockside attraction with saggy rigging.

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5 hours ago, maturin said:

The Lynx model is definitely the reproduction ship, which differs wildly from the historical vessel. There is essentially no relation.

Well, let's call a spade a spade here. Pride's stability was deficient. Yes, there was possibly a microburst, but it does not take an extraordinary event to capsize an overcanvased vessel with loads of tophamper and low freeboard. She could have been knocked over by less. She also could have easily survived the squall that claimed her, had the sailplan and response been different. Just as she had faced bad weather on countless other passages.

Likewise, historical Baltimore clippers relied on good seamanship and conservative sailtrim to keep them safe.

Also, Pride II is a very different ship, much heavier with a lower sail area:displacement ratio. AFAIK she is actually faster, though, because she was built for voyages and not as a dockside attraction with saggy rigging.

Agreed. I went and re-read the chapter on Pride in "Tall Ships Down" which as you probably know was written one of Pride II's captains. There were multiple factors including hatches, bearing off vs. luffing up and the stays'l sheet unable to be loosed, lack of bulkheads, etc. Interesting you mention rigging because she also had numerous failure of chainplates among other issues. Ultimately the USCG report the proximate cause was the sudden gust of wind but there were a number of issues. Many of which were rectified in Pride II. (same designer as well.). 

BTW - I have seen Pride II at dock next to Lnyx and the size difference is obvious. The comparison could be between a small pilot schooner  versus a purpose built privateer . 

 

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@Olikigotho Not to belabor the point about the Baltimore clipper or perhaps schooners in general, but here are some quick references that seem to contradict your assertions about this type of ship. First I would note that most of my secondary sources here all mention the speed as a sought after quality of schooners. 

I agree that initially the British did not like the schooner, as you noted. Experimental models aside the RN did come to rely on schooners more often after 1800, in particular in the West Indies. The RN contracted a Bermuda yard to build schooners and 29 were built. The were used more as advice and dispatch boats where speed was essential. Also for inshore work where a cutter's deeper draft was a liability. Of course perhaps the most famous British schooner we have in game. 

"Nelson's Navy" Brian Lavery p. 55. Also Lavery notes that 515 Letters of Marque were issued to US privateers and at least 1345 enemy vessels were captured. p. 259

Also ref to The Chatham series book "The Naval War of 1812". There is a discussion of schooners on pp. 78-79.

That brings me to Chapelle who I think you referenced earlier. I also have a copy of "The American Sailing Navy". I can cite a number of references here to the speed of the clipper schooner. Pre-war the navy re-rigged a number of them to brigs spoiling their speed. Vixen , Enterprise and Nautilus were three of these types. (pp. 187-189, 234.). Merchants were continuing to build sharp schooners and improved the pilot boat rig during this time (p234.).  Chapelle writes that the first privateers that got to sea in the beginning of the war were the small pilot boats or hastily fitted merchants with 1 gun, however they did have success until the British took countermeasures such as sending escorts and arming merchants. (p.255). At that point the US began building the larger vessels such as the Prince

Chapelle also mentioned that the reputation of the American sharp schooners made them sought after by the French and British in the Caribbean as privateers and also light naval ships. (pp 150-151). 

Lastly here is a photo of page 292 which I think is directly on point, starting with "It is worthy of comment...":

1177199797_Chapellep292.jpg.02d3fd057be276aad4dbd449b129a97f.jpg

I think this speaks to the success of the design as a privateer and even as naval vessels. Sure they were caught in the right conditions or unlucky as @z4ys posted above, but the clipper schooner was certainly not slow or a failure by any means. 

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