2 Ideas for Discussion

[Galt]

There have been a few things on my mind the last few days about how current mechanics are handled. I am not saying that they need to be done, just that I am curious what other people think about them. They are tying speed and crew as well as adjusting how repairs are done. 

1) Tying speed to crew. So I have seen people complain about how you shouldn't be able to repair at full sail, ships realistically weren't able to be at full sails constantly for physics reasons. My thought is a link between the crew designated to sailing and what percent you sail at. Theoretically, the more sail you want the more men it would take to reliably man them (which is why we see them move slower when you don't have the full amount of crew associated with them.) I am almost always at full sails and I just angle my sails to match the speed I want, which is pretty unrealistic (as I suspect, this game is the closest if come to ever sailing a ship.) So the mechanic would be to remove the sails button and just automatically designate crew to the sails based on the percentage you sail at. Battle sails would take less crew that can be used elsewhere on the ship, full stop would remove all crew from the sails, and full sails would require a large portion of your crew. No more going full sails then putting all your men on guns. The only way to get men on to other parts of the ships would be to reduce your sail. Again, not saying that this is a great idea, but I am interested to how feasible it is as a game mechanic instead of what we currently have. 

2) Managing how repairs work. I know people argue about how much you should or shouldn't be able to repair in a battle. So my thought is to do away completely with repairs and move to keeping things like rigging parts and planks on your ship. Instead of being able to repair a certain amount every 10 minutes or whatever, you would just turn on repair and if you have the proper type of repairs in your hold then they would slowly tick meaning you could always be under some sort of repair. It makes sense to me in a realistic way to always have men plugging holes as they appear instead of doing a lot of work really quickly and then taking a break. You would constantly have your hull/sails under repair (at a much slower rate) as long as you have men tasked to do it and the proper resources. It would also be nice to tie the same parts into crafting just for logistic purposes. (simplifies resources) I understand that this would be extremely hard to implement because the current mechanics/mods are obliviously designed to work on the current system. But it's just a thought. 

TL,DR: 1) The more sail you want to use the more crew it takes away from everything else and 2) You are always repairing very slowly if you have the resources on your ship. 

Please, tell me why I'm wrong. 

[Old Crusty]

While at fulls sails I agreed that more crew should be assigned to sails. Also more crew casualties when at full sail and sails are damaged.

As far as repairs I am finding it hard to balance realism with playability. In real life a ship vs ship battle could take all day and into the night. There are times when the ships are not firing but evading and repairing.

What really needs to be decided is if repairs in battle are adding to the game or taking away from the game. I believe that repairs and repair mods are to much a part of the game. I think they need to be toned down so that it is harder for a player to hit the repair button and slide away from the battle. Or worse be almost defeated, then be able to repair so much that they can fight all the way through until the next repair is available. 

My opinion, one repair per hull and rigging in a single battle.

[Jean Ribault]

48 minutes ago, Old Crusty said:

...

My opinion, one repair per hull and rigging in a single battle.

 

We had that.  Abandoned, but I don't know why.  I agree with you, too many repairs IMO.

[Hethwill]

Idea to test if it promotes more fighting ( by having more chances to repair over the course of battle even against the odds ) and less running away all the time.

[Old Crusty]

4 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

Idea to test if it promotes more fighting ( by having more chances to repair over the course of battle even against the odds ) and less running away all the time.

There is no shortage in people running away right now, just to many inconclusive, hour and a half chase scenes 

[Hethwill]

Yep. Same thing, at least that's my perception, lots of running. Maybe wrong, devs should have their data.

[Slim McSauce]

They should, it's been a while that repairs have been king at drawing out battles to inconclusivity. The intention or ships to be able to take on larger odds like samurai kind of took hold of every type of battle. How many repairs do you really need to use before you're just delaying the inevitable, and a better question, how many repairs are too many since we've established that 10 repairs a battle is too much.

[JoeFried]

@Galt It's not about being against it, but about the following thoughts.

Safety on board during combat is extremely relative. A bullet hitting the hull can injure and kill a lot of crew below deck. The wood splinters are distributed and fly around the room. Above all, if the crew had sought protection below deck, such a hit would have serious consequences. In such a case, the crew on the deck and in the rigging would be safer again.
Also on the rigging there are safe places as on or below deck. Often only the sails are hit, shoot through and that's it. Probably no man was hit. From close proximity, the main targets will always be the enemy cannons. Most of them go out of danger.

In this game NA it will always be hard to complete a complete battle in a short time. The current mechanisms are in my opinion a good average.

And if a sailor is fast and efficient, then this should also be given the opportunity to escape. The right first decision in a fight, should also be fruitful. Immediately repairing his sails and putting everything on the run is part of the tactics of experienced captains. Losing ship and crew is a shame. Priority is given to the orders of the Admiralty or the Principal. And every captain in NA knows his orders or the commands of his clan.

You just can not muster any opponent with a heavy pot. One should also be able to miss his "wish goal". Only victories, victories, victories, does not always work. Sometimes special tactics and "luck" help to make the impossible come true. That's why I find the repair kits useful.

 

(German texts are always translated with the help of Google.)

 

 

@Galt Es geht nicht darum dagegen zu sein, sondern um folgenden Gedanken dazu.

Sicherheit an Bord während des Kampfes ist äußerst relativ. Eine Kugel, die den Rumpf durchschlägt, kann unter Deck viel Mannschaft verletzen und töten. Die Holzsplitter verteilen sich und fliegen im ganzen Raum herum. Vor allen Dingen wenn die Mannschaft unter Deck Schutz gesucht hatte, hätte ein solcher Treffer schwerwiegende Folgen. In einem solchen Falle wäre die Mannschaft auf Deck und in der Takelage wieder sicherer.
Auch auf der Takelage gibt es sichere Orte als auf oder unter Deck. Häufig werden nur die Segel getroffen, schießen durch und das wars. Es wurde vermutlich kein Mann getroffen. Ab entsprechender Nähe werden die Hauptziele immer die feindlichen Kanonen sein. Von denen geht die meiste Gefahr aus.

In diesem Spiel NA wird es immer schwer sein eine komplette Schlacht in einer kurzen Zeit komplett darzustellen. Die jetzigen Mechanismen stellen in meinen Augen einen guten Durchschnittswert dar.

Und wenn ein Segler schnell und tüchtig ist, dann sollte dieser auch die Möglichkeit erhalten entfliehen zu können. Die richtige erste Entscheidung bei einem Kampf, sollte auch Früchte tragen können. Sofort seine Segel zu reparieren und alles auf Flucht zu setzen gehört zur Taktik erfahrener Kapitäne. Schiff und Mannschaft zu verlieren ist eine Schmach. Priorität haben die Befehle der Admiralität oder die des Auftraggebers. Und jeder Kapitän in NA kennt seine Befehle oder die Befehle seines Klans.

Man kann halt nicht mit einem schweren Pott jeden Gegner aufbringen. Man sollte halt auch mal sein "Wunschziel" verfehlen können. Immer nur Siegen, Siegen, Siegen, geht halt nicht immer. Manchmal helfen besondere Taktiken und "Glück" um das Unmögliche wahr zu machen. Darum finde ich auch die Reparatursätze sinnvoll.

[Norfolk nChance]

@Galt

Makes some very good points here. For NA-OW it’s about Gameplay ability offset against a more historical realistic procedure. The tightrope balancing act...

Questions: -

what repairs where achievable at sea?

[an awful lot]

What repairs where achievable at sea under battle conditions?

[not so many, and most were quick fixes that then needed additional work later]

A heavily damaged ship in NA-OW can still remain 100% lethal. This needs changing.

[these need balancing out, crew is a possible way or crew morale as an overlay dampener]

 

Norfolk.

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by Norfolk nChance

[Hethwill]

4 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

They should, it's been a while that repairs have been king at drawing out battles to inconclusivity. The intention or ships to be able to take on larger odds like samurai kind of took hold of every type of battle. How many repairs do you really need to use before you're just delaying the inevitable, and a better question, how many repairs are too many since we've established that 10 repairs a battle is too much.

The angle of view must be aimed at the "average" in all things. and in that regard I am sure both options work perfectly.

The main issue is the average seldom encounter each other. The aces were average once. 

[Bluetooth]

Be very careful about asking for this to change.

Its so easy to make it so the better quality ships/mods/captain will win very easily if repairs are reduced.

Repairs can help keep an excellent player in combat for an age and may seem OP at first look,

BUT

Repairs also allow a newer player or average player the chance of escape or redemption for a mistake he makes.

The system as is works well enough. Maybe increase the weight of repairs if you want to add further limitations but 10 min cool down works well and I seldom use or see more than one  or two repairs popped during an average battle.

Sailors in the 17th century could perform marvels at sea, under all conditions and I don't have any problem at all with a ship repairing its sails while at full sail.

If the need arose they would do it.

Life and death situations call for life and death decisions and there was no Health and safety officer with a hard hat shaking his head and tutting at the captains decisions.

The world was a different place back then and what you may see as unrealistic with 21st century glasses, they may have seen as perfectly normal.

This kind of change is so low down on the list of game play priorities at the moment.

 

إذا اجتمعنا في البحر ، فربما تمتلئ سفينتك بالثقوب وتحول طاقمك إلى قرصنة.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by Crow
spell checker

[Tiedemann]

13 hours ago, Galt said:

TL,DR: 1) The more sail you want to use the more crew it takes away from everything else and 2) You are always repairing very slowly if you have the resources on your ship. 

Great ideas!  

1. This is logical and would make battle sails more used and ships running less able to put up heavy resistance while running away in full sails.

2. I like it a lot and I'm not sure why we did not go this way with repairs. If it is a locked rate of repair that repairs a lot slower than what we currently have now it would be brilliant! It could work just like the [Survival] does. So crew are moved here automatically when the ship is damaged and repairs are needed. But it would consume repairs while ongoing and you can disable it if you want. I believe this would boost the effect of focusing fire and prevent sinking ships from being magically resurrected by insane repair mods. Repair mods could still be used to buff the repair rate, but if the rate is like 1/10 of what we have now it would remove the "New ship" in 5 minutes repair we have now.

NB! I do not see the need to replace the current hull and rig repairs with oak planks and canvas, because this is what we use to craft the repairs. Look at the repairs as crates full of planks, canvas, iron inguts etc.

[Angus MacDuff]

There is a misconception in this game (or in the forums) that full sail requires a large amount of sailors.  Not true.  While at full sails or at the so called battle sails (also a misnomer) NO crew is needed.  Once sails are set, everything is tied off and the sailors move on to other tasks (fighting and stuff).  Where the manpower drain takes place is when you are changing state.  Changing speed (plus or minus) and manual sails (swinging your yards) would use an enormous amount of crew and the way that we use it in combat would realistically have a very negative impact on gunnery rate of fire.  There was a very excellent suggestion on another thread that crew fatigue would set in and reduce the ability to manual sail/change speed. 

Indiamen of the period got away with a tiny percentage of the crew that a Man o War with essentially the same sail plan used.  Why?  Because they would set sails and leave them alone. 

Tying the speed of the ship to the amount of sailing crew assigned is very unrealistic, but tying the ability to change speed or manual sail would be good.  We already have a slow down in gunnery if we are using a lot of sailing crew and this could be tweaked to add fatigue if we are working the crew too hard.

There is also a misconception when it comes to repair in battle.  Sails were rarely (never?) repaired in battle.  It takes a long time to change sails and no captian is going to dig out his good replacement set of sails during a battle so that they can get ventilated.  Masts and spars were not repaired during battle because its an all hands operation also.  However, the Topmen were always aloft in battle doing rigging repairs.  This was ongoing.  Hull repairs were also minimal during battle.  Leaks were plugged by the carpenters crew on an ongoing basis but most actual repairing was simply cutting away the wreckage.  Yes in some battles where there was a hiatus, more major repairs could be accomplished, but that's not really our thing in NA.

[Galt]

In addition, ideally masts would not repair with your sails. you carry rigging parks/canvas rolls (which are used in crafting and I would assume only include ropes and canvas) So as you demast a ship they wouldn't be able to replace it in the middle of battle (as it was in reality) (This would also make it more interesting for ships that have been in battle for a while but didn't carry enough repairs, as they would need to get their ships back to a harbor to repair (as was also the case historically))

[Galt]

4 hours ago, Oberon74 said:

There is a misconception in this game (or in the forums) that full sail requires a large amount of sailors.  Not true.  While at full sails or at the so called battle sails (also a misnomer) NO crew is needed.  Once sails are set, everything is tied off and the sailors move on to other tasks (fighting and stuff).  Where the manpower drain takes place is when you are changing state.  Changing speed (plus or minus) and manual sails (swinging your yards) would use an enormous amount of crew and the way that we use it in combat would realistically have a very negative impact on gunnery rate of fire.  There was a very excellent suggestion on another thread that crew fatigue would set in and reduce the ability to manual sail/change speed. 

Indiamen of the period got away with a tiny percentage of the crew that a Man o War with essentially the same sail plan used.  Why?  Because they would set sails and leave them alone. 

Tying the speed of the ship to the amount of sailing crew assigned is very unrealistic, but tying the ability to change speed or manual sail would be good.  We already have a slow down in gunnery if we are using a lot of sailing crew and this could be tweaked to add fatigue if we are working the crew too hard.

There is also a misconception when it comes to repair in battle.  Sails were rarely (never?) repaired in battle.  It takes a long time to change sails and no captian is going to dig out his good replacement set of sails during a battle so that they can get ventilated.  Masts and spars were not repaired during battle because its an all hands operation also.  However, the Topmen were always aloft in battle doing rigging repairs.  This was ongoing.  Hull repairs were also minimal during battle.  Leaks were plugged by the carpenters crew on an ongoing basis but most actual repairing was simply cutting away the wreckage.  Yes in some battles where there was a hiatus, more major repairs could be accomplished, but that's not really our thing in NA.

I would agree except for in game your sails are almost always moving... Be it auto skipper or manual sailing, they are rarely still (in which cases you are correct) and of course it would be complicated to mirror that accurately, having crew determining the speed you move your yards, raise/lower sails, etc.

Maybe there would be more merit in a temporary demand for crew while you raise or lower sails and then it returns to a regular toggle default while you remain at the same percentage (to mirror men always being needed to move the yards.) thoughts? 

And even then maybe it would really only effect your weather deck and quarter deck guns (if applicable) as I wouldn't imagine someone would run to the bottom deck to pull men off guns. So maybe not effect all of them, just the reload rate of your top most decks. 

Edited August 22, 2018 by Galt

[Licinio Chiavari]

On 8/22/2018 at 11:15 AM, Crow said:

Be very careful about asking for this to change.

Its so easy to make it so the better quality ships/mods/captain will win very easily if repairs are reduced.

Repairs can help keep an excellent player in combat for an age and may seem OP at first look,

BUT

Repairs also allow a newer player or average player the chance of escape or redemption for a mistake he makes.

The system as is works well enough. Maybe increase the weight of repairs if you want to add further limitations but 10 min cool down works well and I seldom use or see more than one  or two repairs popped during an average battle.

...

إذا اجتمعنا في البحر ، فربما تمتلئ سفينتك بالثقوب وتحول طاقمك إلى قرصنة.

Assalum aleikum wa Rahmatullah.

 

I sincerely have the opposite opinion of reducing combat repairs to 1 per kind per battle.

Yes. Super modded ships could look even stronger. But... They are really expensive ships, and/or very rare (purple/gold). Losing them is not pleasant.

So I am on the way to overpower the inferior enemy... And I get a very bad hit in hull («the damn "noob" got a perfect side of double balls!»).

What would do the veteran on a 20 mil. ship? Will repair. And then? Will he push the fight? Or not?

No next repair after 10 minutes. No second chance if "shit happens" again (and it could).

Other example the lone raider.

Often better geared and more expert can push a 1v3 to the limit, looking for opportunities to kill the isolated weak.

But one single rig shock, repairs... And then? Would he keep pushing to the limit knowing that the next well placed chain will cripple him for the rest of battle?

I bet that he will disengage immediately to not risk his precious super ship.

And this could lead to less super ships around, more mid ones... And so more chances for casuals on normal ships but in group