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John Sheppard

Hugging "Tactics" and Hercs

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Hi

So i was sailing my Teak/Wo Bellona around Key West (while it was still spanish) when i was attacked by 3 Hercs 

The Requin that was escorting me managed to keep them occupied long enough for me to escape after which the chased me all the way till 30k from tumbado when they finally cought up with me (i did a defence tag on first one he stopped to let the second one catch up) and there we go in combat

So they were quite close able to close the distance very fast and slightly downwind of me (my best point of escape) . What surprised me was that most shots were bouncing off at bad angles .. shots that would destroy a snow or requin that tried to do the same to me before.. One of them tried to stern-camp me but each time he turned he was taking the full broadside from my 2x longs and carronades on top deck , bellona .. what really surprised me was that the hercules DIDN"T go in reload shock and suffered only minor damage after taking 23 shots ?? All while being over 13.5 knots in OW and at least that much in battle

So after few broadsides like this i finally managed to (almost) strip down the armor on that herc and put 8 leaks on him which only served to slow him down slightly Meanwhile the others were working on my sails and crew .. i was down to 65% sails and 400 crew

at which point the fully healthy herc stick on my side slightly in front of me angle towards me and start shooting.. doing quite a bit of damage to me but i could only bring 4 guns on him ..

My attempts to shake him off were not very succesffull ... The guy was obviusly not a bad player as he was able to use the sails to prevent me from shaking him off .. I managed to get him off twice by pretending to turn into the wind only to turn back down again flip him around and give him the other broadside which again didn't do very much even tho i scored 7 hits (Herc too low in the water?) anyways i died in the end 

Ok i know 3 herc is death sentance for any lone ship but that being able to sit on my side and do sooo much damage to me while i did so little is BS .. that was before the HP nerf but i don't know how significant was that

I feel that full broadside from bellona at this range (100m) should be able to blow a ship like this to bits .. i've sunk or crippled snows and requins that tried to stern-camp me before with a broadside like that but the herc hadly seemed to notice 

 

II know i could play better and probably there are people here who would be able to sink 1 of them but before you say something like  "You should just stop and board him" pls keep in mind that they would 1. hear the whistle .. able to speed away and even if they didn't and i succesfully board the one guy on my side , the other 2 guys would be able to park behind me and put me in crew shock with grape.. and the damaged herc can always pull away and repair leaving the other 2 on the bellona

I like the suggestion that some ppl have posted about musket fire and i do believe that 50 muskets shooting on the deck of that herc from 5-7 meters away would be quite a problem..

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As Gregory said hide the whistle or activitly use to stop the hugging.

Turning it on, when then move away turn it off and fire.

Repeat and they won't know whether it's on or off.

Edited by Crow

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When I had a bunch of them jump into a hostility mission me and anouther 1st rate was doing a while back I had him go to battle sails and we just zig zags beside each other.  That way when the hercs tried to stern rack us they took a broad side from one of us.  The four of them decided we where not easy pickings and ran.  Just as I hit one and demasted him.  He got stuck behind and I ran him down and sunk him.  So going slow and not running can some times be better.  That and not enough folks use battle sales.  

Back on global me and Jean Paul did the same thing against US when it was something like 15 vs 2.  Over half their ships got sunk before the battle was over and we both had decent sails and crew still left.  Fight smarter not harder.  They sink just like any other ship.

Edited by Sir Texas Sir
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1 hour ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

Thatch weave works in NA. GJ Texas.

I just need to stop posting on my phone auto spell gives wrong words half the time lol

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On 8/11/2018 at 6:17 PM, Gregory Rainsborough said:

Reverse, hide boarding whistle either by doing it at start or pressing 9 then 8 quickly :D

 

This is an effective way to combat it for sure....

Granted I think if you're alone against a herc or group of hercs, the battle has already decidely been determined as a herc win.

They are incredibly small ships with small mast hitboxes and their agile nature of being able to turn on a dime I think is their greatest aspect to the disadvantage of all other vessels.

A herc can angle exactly when they need to and stern camp for days however they want to...that said you were in a bellona which is not the ship i'd choose to fight hercs in.

Still - my opinion - a herc can beat any 5th rate 1v1 and the player can be confident that they will never be in true danger. 

I would love to hear from others on what ships they think are best suited to fight a herc, or what tactics (like what greg said) are good ways to fight back with.

Edited by Teutonic

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1 hour ago, Teutonic said:

Still - my opinion - a herc can beat any 5th rate 1v1 and the player can be confident that they will never be in true danger. 

 

This is a misconception propagated by people who do not know how to fight light ships or by those who just dont like hercules or dlc in general..  And veterans like you are just fueling this fake fire.

If you think you are absolutely right..

@Captain Reverse will take a bet (pvp marks) to fight your herc in his favorite 5th rate. Maybe you can prove your statements by actions not just by words, live on stream? Otherwise stop sharing ridiculous claims - there are kids here.

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On 8/11/2018 at 10:48 PM, John Sheppard said:

Hi

So i was sailing my Teak/Wo Bellona around Key West (while it was still spanish) when i was attacked by 3 Hercs 

 

Hello Dear John. Think about ships as gun platforms. And just count guns, with equal skill your chances depend on gun number. Ship does not matter. 

3 hercules frigates - 120 guns 
Bellona is 74 guns (has les maneuver and has less HP than 3 frigates combined)


Why do you think you only would have problems against only 120 guns on 3 hercs? The reality is that you would have problems against ANY 120 guns on any ships. Any combination of these is stronger than a bellona
60 Gunboats, to 10 cutters, 3 hercs, 5 snows

Captain can panic or just make mistakes. It all comes with experience. Its hard to sink a 120 gun ship in a 74. 3 hercs is a 120 gun enemy.

We do not see a problem.

On 8/11/2018 at 10:48 PM, John Sheppard said:

 

Ok i know 3 herc is death sentance for any lone ship but that being able to sit on my side and do sooo much damage to me while i did so little is BS .

Here is the problem. You now see more hercs because they are convenient. Previously lineships sank to renommees, snows and other ships that were doing the same (stern camp and hug) before hercules appeared (some ships could hug without getting any damage).

Thats not the hercules issue. The first post - Lynx sank my victory - plz nerf - appeared in the end of 2014 when there were only 6 ships in the game and there were no open world. We believe (currently) that unescorted ships of the line should have problems against nimble maneuverable ships. Thats why frigate/ destroyer escorts were invented. 


To be fair. We do agree that there is a potential problem (but dont have time to focus on it YET) that ships of the lines have limited tools against stern camping and hugging in light vessels. All light vessels (not only hercules).

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22 minutes ago, admin said:

Here is the problem. You now see more hercs because they are convenient. Previously lineships sank to renommees, snows and other ships that were doing the same (stern camp and hug) before hercules appeared (some ships could hug without getting any damage).

Thats not the hercules issue. The first post - Lynx sank my victory - plz nerf - appeared in the end of 2014 when there were only 6 ships in the game and there were no open world. We believe (currently) that unescorted ships of the line should problems against nimble maneuverable ships. Thats why frigate/ destroyer escorts were invented. 

Shall we post the video of rediii again? sinking a Pavel with 2 basic cutter 101?

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1 hour ago, admin said:

This is a misconception propagated by people who do not know how to fight light ships or by those who just dont like hercules or dlc in general..  And veterans like you are just fueling this fake fire.

If you think you are absolutely right..

@Captain Reverse will take a bet (pvp marks) to fight your herc in his favorite 5th rate. Maybe you can prove your statements by actions not just by words, live on stream? Otherwise stop sharing ridiculous claims - there are kids here.

Hercules still feels strange to fight against, especially  in large ships. I had a long fight against one where I was in a Bellona, and he was in a Hercules with Carronades + a Hercules in his fleet. 

I ended up sinking him, but the extremely high turning, acceleration, and annoyingly small hull make it a nightmare to handle. I am a very experienced Bellona captain, and it took me over an hour to finish him off. This was partly due to the fact that he ran out of rig repairs. I kept his sails low with a mix of chain and mast shooting, although I couldn't get a mast to drop until the end. 

I think Hercules still needs a bit of a Nerf to it's turning and or acceleration. It feels like a snow, but it punches like a large 5th rate. 

Edited by EliteDelta
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Large ships have almost none of the advantages they should have over smaller ships in open water and especially when at close range. Musket fire being just one of those advantages that doesn't exist. Not only is the Herc unbelievably good you don't have to spend time crafting and can redeem a new one from anywhere on the map in 24 hours no shipyard required.

Herc and Requin ruined the Bahamas,  expected they will do the same for deep water.  I've always crafted and used a wide range of ships, but now why bother unless you need something specific for RVR.

 

Edited by William Wade
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3 hours ago, admin said:

Hello Dear John. Think about ships as gun platforms. And just count guns, with equal skill your chances depend on gun number. Ship does not matter. 

3 hercules frigates - 120 guns 
Bellona is 74 guns (has les maneuver and has less HP than 3 frigates combined)


Why do you think you only would have problems against only 120 guns on 3 hercs? The reality is that you would have problems against ANY 120 guns on any ships. Any combination of these is stronger than a bellona
60 Gunboats, to 10 cutters, 3 hercs, 5 snows

Captain can panic or just make mistakes. It all comes with experience. Its hard to sink a 120 gun ship in a 74. 3 hercs is a 120 gun enemy.

We do not see a problem.

I understand, however:

On 8/11/2018 at 8:48 PM, John Sheppard said:

One of them tried to stern-camp me but each time he turned he was taking the full broadside from my 2x longs and carronades on top deck , bellona .. what really surprised me was that the hercules DIDN"T go in reload shock and suffered only minor damage after taking 23 shots ??

Now frigate captain foolish or not skilled enough that position himself the way he is open for a full lineship broadside should be punished properly for his mistake.

 

The third British ship into action was HMS Orion under Captain Sir James Saumarez, which rounded the engagement at the head of the battle line and passed between the French main line and the frigates that lay closer inshore.[87] As he did so, the frigate Sérieuse opened fire on Orion, wounding two men. The convention in naval warfare of the time was that ships of the line did not attack frigates when there were ships of equal size to engage, but in firing first French Captain Claude-Jean Martin had negated the rule. Saumarez waited until the frigate was at close range before replying.[88]Orion needed just one broadside to reduce the frigate to a wreck, and Martin's disabled ship drifted away over the shoal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Nile

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Orion_(1787)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_frigate_Sérieuse_(1779)

Now I'm not saying that the frigate should be wrecked completely by one broadside, but at least in a deep shock, potentially allowing lineship another clear shot at it. This should be a mechanic giving a lineship a bit of a chance in encounters with smaller vessels and is a lot more reasonable than magic musket fire which doesnt require any kind of a skill. 

PS. All rates of lineships should have their thickness brought closer with each other in terms of balance.

Edited by Borch
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See, this is exactly why swivels need to be employed on ALL ships, not just one or two. The advantage of a larger ship in this scenario is the ability to rain fire down on the exposed decks of the smaller ship. Hugging is a gamey imbalance. The solution is there, it's just waiting to be implemented.

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7 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

See, this is exactly why swivels need to be employed on ALL ships, not just one or two. The advantage of a larger ship in this scenario is the ability to rain fire down on the exposed decks of the smaller ship. Hugging is a gamey imbalance. The solution is there, it's just waiting to be implemented.

If im correct it is already in game just turned off

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15 minutes ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

During boarding the height advantage is there.

Boarding is one thing huging enemy ship during combat is another.Hercules should go into crew shock if he hugged enemy ship like he does now and suffer crew losses, but requin should suffer severe crew loss if he comes too close too bigger ship 

Edited by Lovec1990

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1 hour ago, Hethwill the Harmless said:

Correct. I'm not making an argument against, i'm just stating the obvious.

Also, you can stop and force enemy to extend or else get boarded... ? Just an idea.

Still defender got huge advantage in boarding at the moment, and a good chunk of captains has zero clue on handling the melee.

I do not see any chances to beat an Hercules with boarding defense (barricades+axes) in a not boarding fitted bellona (going for it as last ditch effort to get rid of hugging ship) that already lost a good chunk of crew.

Personally I disengaged safely from a boarding Requin (who had a clue) in my Hercules even not boarding fitted and not fully prepared. While I still remember being hit by attack while on brace or using Fire deck guns was a death sentence one year ago.

Boarding has been deeply nerfed as option, still viable but only for purposely fitted ships used with grain of salt.

Hugging and sterncamping are on the contrary still big issue for big ships vs nimble one (even 1v1).

Swivel for all and/or muskets defensive fire could help a lot (and I say this being a sterncamper and boarder but I feel weird camping a Bucetaure on Requin and then boarding to death him). Obviously also determined defender crap has to be likewise solved: being able to avoid the most normal outcome of 1800 ship combat (the boarding - and still, even if to be revamped - the most real part of this simulation; that's a crew better geared and trained beats an inferior one) by magical "Force of Will" is plain stupid.

 

Edited by Licinio Chiavari

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Lost 1 Bucc vs 3 Hercules.

Lost 3 Indiamans (2 IA won't ever leave battle) and my Sabicu India cause of 1 Hercules that never ever took any damage (hello medium cause India cant fit carro) and wipe my side + structure under 5 caronnades volleys ...

 

BUT NO, isnt P2W.

Edited by Scrouch

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1 hour ago, Scrouch said:

Lost 1 Bucc vs 3 Hercules.

Lost 3 Indiamans (2 IA won't ever leave battle) and my Sabicu India cause of 1 Hercules that never ever took any damage (hello medium cause India cant fit carro) and wipe my side + structure under 5 caronnades volleys ...

1st. well shit happens, nothing you can really do.

2nd. use your fleet ships. Hunters are usually not interested in your fleet ships, but your ship (=pvp marks). Use 12pd and 9pd long guns (better reload than 18pd) and 68pd carros in the      back. Shoot his rigging a bit, stick with your fleet ships. Fill up your crew from the fleet ships when necessary. Wait till he repairs rig, get rigging down gain to about 75%, switch to hull damage (fleet ships aswell). tack through the wind to prevent beeing damaged on one side only, Don't be afraid of boarding (put marines on the indiman), the Herc usually is more afraid of it.

   try to put yourself in the hunters head and think about what he would do, what his intentions are.

   Use basic hull, basic carpenters, basic strong sail. Cheap and very effective.

 

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13 hours ago, admin said:

This is a misconception propagated by people who do not know how to fight light ships or by those who just dont like hercules or dlc in general..  And veterans like you are just fueling this fake fire.

If you think you are absolutely right..

@Captain Reverse will take a bet (pvp marks) to fight your herc in his favorite 5th rate. Maybe you can prove your statements by actions not just by words, live on stream? Otherwise stop sharing ridiculous claims - there are kids here.

I had a chance to fight against captains with similar skills in hercs while being on a 5th rates, now 5th rate indeed has the advantage. I confirm.

I think people still comment their fights from before last nerf when they claim herc will always win. 

Still, as Elite mentioned, some fights with hercs indeed fell odd. Hercs still have a large number of guns per length of the hull and can angle quite well. They're also hard to hit. There was certainly no such strong stern camping ship before, as rattles and snows required more skill and were more vulnerable to errors. 

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@Scrouch 

1HtC9fE.jpg

Perform like told above. This one is "brand new".

Edit: Teak Teak Indiaman. 12pd and 9pd Long Guns, 68pd Carronades in the rear. Setup: Marines, Old Flag Officer, Steel Tool Box. Perma: Basic Hull, Stronk Sail and Carpentry Tools

Edited by Palatinose
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