New System for Balancing Upgrades

[William Death]

I've suggested this several times in other threads before, but it was recently suggested to me to make a topic for it. 

Wall of text incoming. If you're intent on skipping it, skip to the bold part for the mechanics suggestion.

I personally liked our old system of craftable upgrades better. You know the one, the old grey/green/blue/purple/gold system where you could craft most modules and upgrades using mid grade notes and some materials. But there were some very powerful, very rare modules (gold marines, carpenters, light carriages, etc.) that made that system no good. I understand the devs have worked hard on our current skillbook and permanent module system, and introduced new modules (however much I disagree with the need for them) so we probably won't return to that old system...so I'll propose a compromise in this topic.

 

Now after the big wipe, I was under the impression that we were trying to move away from a mod-dependent system. Instead modules and books are now more valuable and more important than ever. And the worst part is, the common ones are mostly garbage! Nobody who is competitive uses Gazelle for +1% speed, when Bovenwinds, Navy Hull (granted that ones not super difficult to get) and Copper Plating all offer significantly better performance. And why use Optimized Ballast when there is Art of Shiphandling? The list of crap mod vs good mod goes on.

Players who have played long enough, or are active enough, or are "good" enough will likely have access to these super rare modules. Heck I've got a full set on my main and almost a full set on one alt, and I'm well on my way to a decent set on a 3rd alt. But the casuals can't easily get them. This further widens the gap between 2000+ hours "I am pro--I sink players [noobs] 5 vs 1" and Mr. Casual over there who is playing an hour or two a week.

I'm 100% for high quality rewards for players who are active, skilled, and get out there and get the kills, but those same rewards should also be available (at a very high cost, and via RNG) to those who maybe aren't so skilled. 

But when the ship you are sailing costs less than 1Mil to make and the modules you need on it to make it relevant in PvP cost over 2Mil, something is wrong. Here is a quote from this post by admin regarding future goals in NA http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/19703-forthcoming-changes-in-the-next-testbed-patch/  I took the liberty of emphasizing the important part.

 

The goal of next couple patches is to bring more players to the open world. At least 2 will be deployed before wipe. The rest will follow after. 
We will be gradually changing features that hide players from the open world. Most game mechanics from now on will have to motivate players to sail out and do something on the Open world map. We also will change some areas that were causing pains for players (and potentially introduce new pain areas accidentally - but this will be fixed if we made a mistake). 

First test bed patch (estimated time to deliver end of next week)

• Removal of current upgrade system and ship quality level
  • We were not satisfied with the fact that upgrades were worth more than ships themselves.
  • Most upgrades will be removed from the game and transferred to individual ship knowledge, with bonuses that will depend on individual ships and/or class.
  • Sailing a ship and getting kills will add to XP on that ship that will unlock knowledge slots over time (currently all ships have 5 slots). 
  • All crafted ships will only have wood type and trim (designed by crafter). Every ship will have 3 permanent upgrades which will allow installation of bow figures and regional refits (crafteable permanent upgrade)

Granted that post is old, but I don't think the goal has changed? It shouldn't have changed. We should always strive to put people into the OW where they can willingly PvP without fear of losing a super-expensive ship. 

It has gotten to the point in the game now, that you pretty much need those good modules and books to be relevant in PvP. (I know someone is going to come along and say "I've gotten X amount of kills with a storebought ship and medium cannons. Hurr durr your point is irrelevant the system is fine!" blah blah blah.) Sure, you can get by without them, but you'll sink a lot, and most players get discouraged when their best 5th rate gets run down and wrecked by a 4th or 3rd rate because that big ship was running mods and books that they'll (seemingly) never have access to.

Important note: I am NOT against speed-fitted 4th and 3rd rates. They are lovely ships and can easily find a balance in NA. Read on to see how.

 

So here's the suggestion:  (credit where credit is due, I'm sure I'm the first to suggest this stuff)

• Remove the useless speed cap. It breaks more things than it helps.
• Nerf Pirate Rig and Spanish Rig some (don't ruin the mods, just nerf them bit by bit till we find a balance).
• Nerf speed bonuses/negatives provided by wood types: the difference in speed between fir/fir and LO/WO should be less than it is now.
• Make all modules available in 4 ways: RNG loot, Crafting with resources and books, PvP marks, or Combat Marks (enormous amounts of combat marks, obviously).
• Introduce diminishing returns for stacking all modules and books of the same category (reload, speed, turn, hp) (stacking 2 speed mods @ 2% speed each does not equal +4% speed, instead more like +3.2%, stacking another 2% mod will yield a net bonus of something like 4.5%, etc.). The more you stack, the less you benefit. Negatives still stack normally, obviously. If you have mods that give different amounts, the highest amount will apply first, then the stacked values will diminish in order of greatest to least.

This will once again provide room for "average" 5th rates and 4th rates to spread their sails on OW. They'll still get run down by speed-fit Bellonas, Ingermanlands, Endymions, Wapens, etc. (as they should), but the difference in speed between a failfit speedboat and a teak/wo "jack of all trades build" with one or two speed upgrades will be much less than it is now.

Furthermore, the increased availability of books and modules means that everyone can be on a more-or-less equal playing field. There won't be room for people to say "I don't wanna go out and PvP because I don't have the right mods and I'll just get sunk," or "You only beat me because you have elite mods that I don't have."

 

There will still be plenty more to balance regarding the bonuses we can choose for our ships (looking at you, useless wood types and pointless modules that nobody uses). But I think that if the broken DLC boats have taught us anything, its that high availability and low operating cost does increase PvP. I see some people going out to hunt and forming up in the coastguards who before wouldn't willingly PvP. But now that they have a ship that can be replaced easily and doesn't *require* expensive modules to function (pirate rig refit is cheap enough), they go out and fight. Thats good. Those ships still need balancing though, but thats well covered in other threads.

 

TL/DR:

Good mods are more valuable than standard 3/5 ships and that discourages casuals from PvP. Make the good modules and books more available and maybe we'll start seeing people leave port and sail out of the safezones. Introduce diminishing returns to discourage stacking that leads to outrageous bonuses. 

 Thoughts? Is it a good idea, or crazy?

[Grundgemunkey]

disagree  completely   ..... theres nothing wrong with mods been more expensive than the ship ... if you have a 2 m ship with 3m mods on it you have a 5m ship ... so what  change it around reduce cost of mods by making them more available put up cost of materials to build a ship .. same ship costs 3m and same mods cost 2m .. you have a 5m ship

only two factors on the price of something in gsme .... how much does it cost to craft  how rare is it ... therefore a 3-5 ship is never going to be worth much more than it costs to craft,,

the fact that desireable mods are so expensive  shows the devs have got the balance just about right in this dept

there has to be a speed cap what negatives does it bring ?  its the age of sail .. there  has to be a maximum acheivable speed

make all modules available in 4 ways: RNG loot, Crafting with resources and books, PvP marks, or Combat Marks (enormous amounts of combat marks, obviously)

its already there in game ... but making  ALL mods available with pvp or combat marks is a step backwards ,, and benefits the  skilled ive got all day to play player rather than the casual player .... same as the ability to craft mods that are currently only available through RNG and purchase with PVP points ,,,,, if i can provide  my ship with say elite spanish.. copper plating and navy hull refit .... just by pve why wouldnt i ... currently to get that ,, i have to get lucky with rng and craft and also get pvp marks .. .or just have a lot of cash which will overide any system you bring in ..

I think overall the devs have got the balance of mod availability just about right ,,, you dont have to be a 8 hr a day super skilled player to get  raremods/books just lucky .... but you d have to pvp to get others ,,, your suggestion just makes pvp redundant again

This will once again provide room for "average" 5th rates and 4th rates to spread their sails on OW. They'll still get run down by speed-fit Bellonas, Ingermanlands, Endymions, Wapens,  i dont understand this .. as the ships you mention apart from the bellona are 4th and 5 th rates . 

the dlc ships have not taught us that availability and low cost increases PVP ... it has just reconfirmed what we already know that 1 broken OP ship will always become the meta and noobs will suffer from it

the le requin is now stopping meaningfull pvp ...noobs dont know how to counter it so they sink without a fight  .., theres no way of catching it unless your in a le req yourself  so  people dont even bother tagging it

imo opinion you seem to misunderstand balance ... if you want the same performance fron everynship but they just look different ,, why not just have i ship type in game and stop messing around .. if a mod doesnt give any tangible advantage whats the point of having it ... if nothing is rare whats the point of playing the game to get it ... i enjoyed the wait and earning the money or the hope of a rng and haggling on price to get the books for upgrades ..now i have the books i want its a bit dissapointing in a way 

 

Edited August 11, 2018 by Grundgemunkey

[Licinio Chiavari]

The difference between expert pvper and noobish pvper in a couple posts.

 

[GhastlyGhost]

 remove all mods 

easy and all problems solved

[Grundgemunkey]

4 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

The difference between expert pvper and noobish pvper in a couple posts.

 

you troll in game and on forum .. guess that confirms your status

[Licinio Chiavari]

3 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

you troll in game and on forum .. guess that confirms your status

I really rarely troll in forums.

I rarely troll in Battle... If not provoked first.

I felt a bit guilty after posting in this case. Thanks for cancelling that feeling.

That said: if you do not see that balance issues are 90% a mod/book problem and less than 10% ship problem, you confirm your status.

[Liq]

Mods are getting reworked anyway

Will be able to choose 1 upgrade from a pool

E.g. gunnery: choose better accuracy, reload, penetration , ... - but can only have one

[Jean Ribault]

7 hours ago, William Death said:

...

So here's the suggestion:  (credit where credit is due, I'm sure I'm the first to suggest this stuff)

• Remove the useless speed cap. It breaks more things than it helps.
• Nerf Pirate Rig and Spanish Rig some (don't ruin the mods, just nerf them bit by bit till we find a balance).
• Nerf speed bonuses/negatives provided by wood types: the difference in speed between fir/fir and LO/WO should be less than it is now.
• Make all modules available in 4 ways: RNG loot, Crafting with resources and books, PvP marks, or Combat Marks (enormous amounts of combat marks, obviously).
• Introduce diminishing returns for stacking all modules and books of the same category (reload, speed, turn, hp) (stacking 2 speed mods @ 2% speed each does not equal +4% speed, instead more like +3.2%, stacking another 2% mod will yield a net bonus of something like 4.5%, etc.). The more you stack, the less you benefit. Negatives still stack normally, obviously. If you have mods that give different amounts, the highest amount will apply first, then the stacked values will diminish in order of greatest to least.

... Thoughts? Is it a good idea, or crazy?

 

I do like where you're going with it, but OP DLC ships completely stomps on your idea here.  Shame really, not the fault of your suggestion, but look at the other thousands of post now on how DLC ships have ruined this.

 

2 hours ago, GhastlyGhost said:

 remove all mods 

easy and all problems solved

 

Actually I'm more in this camp.  Seems extreme, but this would purify the game more and make it much more fun, or actually just more about the battle than the other crap like mods and upgrades....IMHO.  (...Again, OP DLC ships ruins it here too, so hand in hand just get rid of that garbage.)

[Cmdr RideZ]

Mods should stay but those should be balanced. Much more interesting game when you can slightly tune your ship, make builds and have chats with you friends how to build your next ship.

The game changed at some point completely to progress oriented game.

We had ship knowledge tree, which was a mad grind. In a tree form it made much more sense to have Renommee as you first ship and as you progress you later get an Endymion.

The same thing happened with mods, progress, you find all 5 books and you get a far superior book.

They can leave the game as it is but then it is from "Best In Slot" gear which is, imho, inferior vs 20 good ships + 20 good builds per ship, 400 different options you can take. Sure they wont be able to balance it for 400 but still better than BIS, 1 build to rule them all.

Probably they should have upgrade size as well, big ships need more expensive upgrades than small.

Yes, the game has changed a lot and it did not get better. Now we just wait that admin figures this out.

[GhastlyGhost]

2 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

(...)

I fully understand your point of view. I also like a variety. Unfortunately in current state of mods we have too many of them and we can stack them (that made a lot of problems like speed meta). And some of them have just too much impact on the gameplay. Players should win by SKILL not better upgrades that can be stacked.

 

Edited August 11, 2018 by GhastlyGhost

[Captiva]

5 hours ago, Liq said:

Mods are getting reworked anyway

Will be able to choose 1 upgrade from a pool

E.g. gunnery: choose better accuracy, reload, penetration , ... - but can only have one

^ this ^ 

I don't believe mods are ever going away, so this would seem to be the best compromise.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Captiva

[William Death]

11 hours ago, Grundgemunkey said:

disagree  completely   ..... theres nothing wrong with mods been more expensive than the ship ... if you have a 2 m ship with 3m mods on it you have a 5m ship ... so what  change it around reduce cost of mods by making them more available put up cost of materials to build a ship .. same ship costs 3m and same mods cost 2m .. you have a 5m ship

If we want the average guys to go out and PvP (I assume we do) ships and mods shouldn't be prohibitively expensive for them to do so. "Reduce cost of mods by making them more available put up cost of materials to build a ship" I suggested nothing of the sort. Don't touch the cost of ships. Simply give people more than two ways (RNG or mass quantities of gold) to get the best books and mods.

11 hours ago, Grundgemunkey said:

its already there in game ... but making  ALL mods available with pvp or combat marks is a step backwards ,, and benefits the  skilled ive got all day to play player rather than the casual player .... same as the ability to craft mods that are currently only available through RNG and purchase with PVP points ,,,,, if i can provide  my ship with say elite spanish.. copper plating and navy hull refit .... just by pve why wouldnt i ... currently to get that ,, i have to get lucky with rng and craft and also get pvp marks .. .or just have a lot of cash which will overide any system you bring in ..

I think overall the devs have got the balance of mod availability just about right ,,, you dont have to be a 8 hr a day super skilled player to get  raremods/books just lucky .... but you d have to pvp to get others ,,, your suggestion just makes pvp redundant again

Actually making them available with PvP or Combat Marks caters more to the casual player, since he won't have to play all day to afford these things. He can go out, spend some CM or PvP marks and have the best mods available. Took him a few hours of hunting to get the PvP marks to buy a Cartagena Caulking refit and an Elite French Rig. The people who are skilled and play all day probably already have the mods and books, or enough PvP marks to buy them. I think you missed the part about the combat marks taking "enormous amounts." I'm with you, I don't want to see a version of NA where the PvE crowd can hit two AI frigates and go buy Elite Spanish Rig. Lets throw some arbitrary numbers around: if that Elite Spanish Rig costs maybe, 15-30 PvP Marks, vs 250-350 Combat Marks.... wouldn't that be some incentive to go PvP instead of PvE? Again, I just threw out some random numbers, but hopefully that conveys the idea.

I really don't think the devs have the balance of mod availability just right. I've got 2-3 of every type of good elite mod laying around, waiting to be used. RNG, gold, and PvP marks ensure that I keep a good supply. These good mods ensure that I'll almost never be caught by an average player. Never be demasted by an average player. Never be in trouble of having an average player land shots on my ship that actually do damage that I can't run away from. Back when we had fewer mods of each type, and wider availability, the playing field was much closer to even. 

11 hours ago, Grundgemunkey said:

imo opinion you seem to misunderstand balance ... if you want the same performance fron everynship but they just look different ,, why not just have i ship type in game and stop messing around .. if a mod doesnt give any tangible advantage whats the point of having it ... if nothing is rare whats the point of playing the game to get it ... i enjoyed the wait and earning the money or the hope of a rng and haggling on price to get the books for upgrades ..now i have the books i want its a bit dissapointing in a way 

I can see how you would maybe misconstrue this. But thats not what I want. Each ship should have a place in the game. I don't want the ships to all be equal. They shouldn't all perform the same: some need to be upwind boats, some for downwind, some for brawling and some for running away. I just want the availability of modules and books to be equal, instead of heavily slanted in favor of the "hardcore" crowd.

If you enjoyed the wait and haggling and all that, good for you, but most players I've seen chatting about it are the complete opposite. Constantly complaining that the elite PvPers have the good stuff and they barely have access to it. So let the roleplaying crowd earn their money, stroll through the merchant's shops, hunting for a bargain on their Book of the Void. Meanwhile the rest of the population will happily go to PvP for marks, or unload vast amounts of CMs to get their mods and go PvP some more.

11 hours ago, Grundgemunkey said:

there has to be a speed cap what negatives does it bring ?  its the age of sail .. there  has to be a maximum acheivable speed

Here are the main negatives of the speed cap, given in example form:

• My Fir/Fir Ingermanland does 15.5kn. My Teak/Teak Ingermanland is also capable of those speeds. 
• I have no reason to sail a speed modded Renommee when L'Hermione has a better profile, bigger guns, and can also reach the same 15.5kn speed, but be faster upwind.

As you can see, the speed cap makes certain ships nearly useless. Renommee without the speed cap could escape almost anything downwind when equipped with Elite Spanish Rig. But then you have her hitting insane speeds of 17-18-19kn and that, I assume, is what you're worried about. Solution:

Perhaps you think about the implications of the other points in my suggestion before writing that. There will be a "speed cap" of sorts with my proposed system: it'll be the fastest ship (Renommee, for the fastest frigate) + all the speed mods that can be equipped (remember diminishing returns apply). And I bet that speed won't be much above 15.5kn

When upgrades are properly balanced, with diminishing returns applied, super stacking won't see much benefit: a Copper + Navy Hull + Bovenwinds + Art of Shiphandling + Speed Trim    Trincomalee won't be much faster than a Trinco with Copper + Navy Hull + Art of Shiphandling, but the first ship will experience all of the negatives associated with those speed mods.

14 hours ago, Grundgemunkey said:

This will once again provide room for "average" 5th rates and 4th rates to spread their sails on OW. They'll still get run down by speed-fit Bellonas, Ingermanlands, Endymions, Wapens,  i dont understand this .. as the ships you mention apart from the bellona are 4th and 5 th rates . 

Yes, the ships I mentioned (as examples) are 5th and 4th rates (besides Bellona). But the operative words are "'average' 5th and 4th rates" vs "speed-fit" 4th and 5th rates. Right now, you shouldn't take a ship out to go solo PvP unless you're 13kn+, and you'll need some of those super mods to get to that speed unless you plan on sailing fir/fir. The goal of implementing the diminishing returns for stacking mods of the same type is to narrow the gap between what the average player sails, and what the "elite PvPers" sail (super modded ships). There will still be room for--and a purpose for--ships with stacked upgrades, but they won't be as common as they are now.

A fight between two comparable ships (Agamemnon vs Ingermanland, for example) should hinge mainly on player skill (not ignoring the fact that proper outfitting [modding] of the ship is a skill), not on who has access to the best mods and books. 

14 hours ago, Grundgemunkey said:

the dlc ships have not taught us that availability and low cost increases PVP ... it has just reconfirmed what we already know that 1 broken OP ship will always become the meta and noobs will suffer from it

the le requin is now stopping meaningfull pvp ...noobs dont know how to counter it so they sink without a fight  .., theres no way of catching it unless your in a le req yourself  so  people dont even bother tagging it

100% agree that the two broken DLC ships have nearly ruined PvP. I won't sail my fancy 4/5s or 5/5 ships right now, or at least rarely do so. I sail basic 3/5 with some cheap (to me) mods and just leave the area if the le broken and hercudumbs come out in force. Or I get sunk by them and lament the road NA has gone down as I click the button on a new ship.

But what I've seen, and others I've spoken with agree, is that people who have the DLC enjoy the low-risk aspect that it brings their PvP. They lose a ship? No worries, new one tomorrow! Just have to buy some guns a cheap mod or two for it. Imagine how many 5th and 4th rates we'd see roaming around if all a player had to do to get a good one is craft it (or buy one at a freeport, prices are becoming competitive) and throw a few PvP marks at the shop to get the good mods for it.

 

[William Death]

13 hours ago, Liq said:

Mods are getting reworked anyway

Will be able to choose 1 upgrade from a pool

E.g. gunnery: choose better accuracy, reload, penetration , ... - but can only have one

Sounds good, and could replace my suggestion for diminishing returns, but I think we still need wider availability of books and mods, not just RNG or relying on player-driven economy to supply the good stuff.

 

Also, like other things "under construction" in NA, it is:

 

Coming Soon™ 

 

[John Page]

Great suggestions @William Death, hear him!

[Teutonic]

Agree with everything that William points out.

As liq states, admin plans to change mods....i suppose we will find out, but consistant balance changes will insure us un finding the right balance.

[Sparkydog]

On 8/10/2018 at 10:36 PM, William Death said:

 

• Make all modules available in 4 ways: RNG loot, Crafting with resources and books, PvP marks, or Combat Marks (enormous amounts of combat marks, obvious
•  

I appreciate this part of you suggestion the most.  It gives all players in the game a chance at the elite mods regardless of their play style.  If it encourages them to sail around more and play the game more frequently- that would be a big win for the game. I've said it many times before that there are many different ways to enjoy the game and we should encourage them all.