Should the admiralty allow SOL to roam freely?

[hoarmurath]

Ships of the line, especially third, second, and first rates, are very valuable assets, from a strategic point of view. Would the admiralty of any nation allow such ships to be used by captains as they wish without close scrutiny? Would the admiralty allow any captain or admiral to use such ships at the risk of them being lost in futile battles in the middle of nowhere?

 

I doubt it.

 

Well, with this in mind, i suggest  the following. Remove the ability for players to sail ships of third, second, and first rate in open world, or even own them. Instead, make them reserved for admiralty, with the ability for the admiralty to give such ships to player captains only during port battles. The number of each ship available could be fixed by the admiralty (for example, the admiralty would send for a given port battle 2 first rates, 3 second rates, 14 third rates, the fleet then being completed with whatever the players came in, fourth rates and below), and given to select captains according to their performance in this port battle preparation (leaderboard of hostility generated).

In order to encourage players to really make efforts to get those ships, they should only be unlocked after reaching a minimum hostility value.

 

What's the point of such restrictions? To make the higher rated ships more special, more rare, and to make it easier to balance open sea battles by reducing the number of rates that could be used in them. 

 

Yes, i know, everyone want to sail the death stars, but they weren't the workhorses of the various navies, and they are a pain to balance with the smallest ships without making either the bigger ships ridiculously vulnerable, or the smaller ships ridiculously useless...

 

Discuss...

Edited August 9, 2018 by hoarmurath

[hoarmurath]

6 minutes ago, dark lord rediii said:

increase mats needed to build them

include some kind of tax or something for owning them

 

 

profit

That's what potbs did, never solved the balance problem between high rate ships and low rate ships....

[Old Crusty]

How would a player unbox a SOL? 

   I agreed with you in theory but this is a game and we do enjoy sailing the biggest ships. 

   I would like to see restrictions on the amount of 1st rates allowed in a port battle for better realism.

[Guest]

Just No

 

[Batman]

Limiting access to ships in a game about ships won't make people happy. We had that try already in the past, certain ships like the Bellona were locked behind Conquest Marks.

Didn't turn out well, people want to sail their favourite ship and restricting access to their favourite ship will eventually lead to people leaving the game because they are not allowed to sail their favourite ship.

[hoarmurath]

Coming from here : 

Just to be clear, this is what made me start this topic. And i think that the simplest way to resolve the issue, is to make it so SOL never fight 5th rates... But if someone have a better proposal to do it...

[William Death]

Short answer:

No. 

 

Slight correction to your (mostly valid) point about SOLs being a rare sight IRL:

Third rates cruised sometimes with a small fleet (perhaps even alone, on occasion, IIRC). They made excellent frigate hunters. They were the big workhorses of the navies. Strong enough to withstand line battles, fast enough to cruise for the enemy. Big enough to deter smaller ships from attacking. Small enough to be outfitted and sailed regularly without enormous operating costs. 

 

Reasoning:

Anything that further limits what ships people can and can't sail is bad. More players will quit. Your rank is the Admiralty's evaluation of your ability to command one of their prized SOLs. Sometimes the Admiralty misjudges a Captain's ability (as evidenced by the amount of times you see noob Rear Admirals losing first and second rates to solo 3rd 4th and 5th rates). 

Remember fine woods and that super successful attempt to limit the use of big ships? Yeah, it worked: population plummeted and so did the amount of PvP happening. People were too afraid to leave the dock when a standard LO/Build Strength Victory cost 5-8 mil without upgrades. People didn't start using those ships again till they had 2-3 replacements sitting in docks, waiting to be used, or a clan that could provide that. Lets not try anything even remotely similar to that again. Driving away nearly half the playerbase isn't something we want to do again.  

 

Just because some people want to see 4th-7th rates dominate PvP, doesn't mean that everyone does. There are those (I have at least one foot in this camp) who only want to sail the big ships for RvR, PvP, and PvE. Making it overly difficult or nearly impossible for them to get those ships will cause them to quit. Can we afford to lose players who provide content (even if its not the content you like) when the game already has so few?

 

A better idea:

• Remove the useless speed cap. It breaks more things than it helps.
• Nerf Pirate Rig and Spanish Rig some (don't ruin the mods, just nerf them bit by bit till we find a balance).
• Nerf speed bonuses/negatives provided by wood types: the difference in speed between fir/fir and LO/WO should be less than it is now.
• Make all modules available in 4 ways: RNG loot, Crafting with resources and books, PvP marks, or Combat Marks (enormous amounts of combat marks, obviously).
• Introduce diminishing returns for stacking all modules of the same category (reload, speed, turn, hp) (stacking 2 speed mods @ 2% speed each does not equal +4% speed, instead more like +3.2%, stacking another 2% mod will yield a net bonus of something like 4.5%, etc.). The more you stack, the less you benefit. Negatives still stack normally, obviously. 

This will once again provide room for "average" 5th rates and 4th rates to spread their sails on OW. They'll still get run down by speed-fit Bellonas, Ingermanlands, Endymions, Wapens, etc. (as they should), but the difference in speed between a failfit speedboat and a teak/wo "jack of all trades build" with one or two speed upgrades will be much less than it is now.

 

Back to your suggestion: 

Once more...no. It sounds good to read, but it just doesn't work in NA. We tried something similar already, it didn't work. Players like their big ships. Its a game; we have to draw the line between historical simulator and fun game play. 

Futhermore, what you propose is basically a lobby-based PB system...which I don't think we'll see. It would be nice, to an extent, but there is no fair way to decide who gets to be in what ship. Lets face it: whatever random player that sinks the most AI while raising hostility is probably not the guy you want in one your two first rates in the PB. Heck, you may want the PB fleet to include players who weren't even there to grind the port. What if another clan has one or two players go do missions and that screws up your clan's fleet composition because they individually got more damage points than those in your group? Too many mechanics to work out. Too many people to get their feelings hurt. Too many cries in the battle results thread: "'So-and-so' wasn't supposed to get .3k more damage than me! I was supposed to be awarded the first rate! That guy is a PvE noob who doesn't understand how to sail and we'd have won if we had the right players in those ships!"

 

 

But first, lets worry about the two DLC bumper boats that have been ruining OW PvP (and RvR) for the past month. A patch has been deployed to make them (and other shallow boats) more balanced. Lets see if it works. Go from there.

Mods still need nerfing. The best system, even as broken as it was, was the old blue/purple/gold craftable mod system. At least then there were only a few of each type of mod.  Too bad that probably won't come back.

 

 

[Johnny Rotten]

Remove Pirate nation from being able to sail SOLs.

#MakePiratesGreatAgain

[Barbancourt]

37 minutes ago, Sir John said:

I like the idea of SoL's being harder to get and rarer, but I feel there is only so far this game can go in simulating real life

I don't want to "simulate real life" - I just want all ships to be able to have a proper role in the game, and to have a nice mix of ships in large battles. 

 

[Christendom]

I think the DLCs are enough proof that people just want cheap/easy access to ships that they can sail around and not worry about losing.  Every single time we increase ship costs or difficulty people either quit or stop sailing for fear of losing them.  

This game should strive to get as many persons out on the OW and out of the safe zones as possible.

[Lovec1990]

1 hour ago, Christendom said:

I think the DLCs are enough proof that people just want cheap/easy access to ships that they can sail around and not worry about losing.  Every single time we increase ship costs or difficulty people either quit or stop sailing for fear of losing them.  

This game should strive to get as many persons out on the OW and out of the safe zones as possible.

This issue can be solved if devs want it too be solved 

[Vernon Merrill]

Lol. The problem is that CERTAIN  people want it set up so that a bigger ship equals “ I always win”.  Theoretically, there should be a reputation system that determines what rate ship you can sail.  Not a useless rank that is gained by 75% of the pop by attacking AI in their live oak indefatigable.

Bur as stated above, the genie is out of the bottle and everyone thinks they should all “be able to sail the ship they want since they paid the same amount of money”. 

The fix is to make 1st and second rated PROHIBITIVELY expensive.  

And watch the tears flow.  

Launch is coming.  Best to rip the band-aids off now.  Along with a more austere economy.   

It should be HARD to survive as a captain in the Caribbean in this era.  

[Christendom]

Lol everytime we try and make this game hardcore mode people quit.  Everyone remembers how quickly the pop died 2-3 weeks after the wipe when the player base was fed up with mission payouts and ship knowledge trees.  Just stop already. 

People want to sail big ships.  Restricting their access to them will just cause more folks to quit   Make them slow and dangerous to sail alone.  Limit them in PBs if we must to help ship diversity.  

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by Christendom

[Fluffy Fishy]

6 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

But then we get tears, lots of tears from casual players that want to use 1st rates for fun (PvE server *cough* )

I don't know anyone who was particularly upset on the PVE server by the more restrictive change, people just adjusted to the new mechanics and explored other ships while they built up resources to get SoLs. I saw far more frustration from the PVP playerbase concerned about death spirals and having strong enough ships for port battles anyway.

Please have a bit more respect, we all want a good game here, Insulting the PVE players doesn't achieve anything and especially when its not even true, scapegoating the more casual playerbase and making them feel unwanted only hurts the game in the long run, especially when the accusations aren't justified. Please can we stop this now, its been a continuous damaging aspect pushing people away for years.

[Bluetooth]

No let people sail what they like. 

Except pirates.

No SOL for pirates.

#sillypiratenation 

[HopMaH]

11 minutes ago, Crow said:

No SOL for pirates.

#sillypiratenation 

Well then erase pirate nation at all

[Sven Silberbart]

It must be a pain too loose a 1st rate, then every captain can sail such a ship but much of them dont want to, because of the risk.

At the moment sadly this game is "World of SOLs" again. Bring as much L'Oceans as you can for a Screening operation, as much as you can for hostility.

That problem is only solved inside the PBs, because there are some fast ships useful, to cap oder prevent the enemy to get points. This is because there are strategical goals: the circles. And there are a BR limit.

 

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by Sven Silberbart

[admin]

10 hours ago, hoarmurath said:

 

I doubt it.

 

Costs of ships and ships of the line is not final. It is lower for testing. Ships of the line buffs planned and being queens of the sea they will be high maintenance.
 

[hoarmurath]

2 minutes ago, admin said:

Costs of ships and ships of the line is not final. It is lower for testing. Ships of the line buffs planned and being queens of the sea they will be high maintenance.
 

So you're going the potbs way...

[Sir Texas Sir]

9 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

Such things didn't happen when 1st rates were very expensive. Players were very careful about them and it was a big loss for the nation when one got sank (yes, conquest marks & fine woods). 

But then we get tears, lots of tears from casual players that want to use 1st rates for fun (PvE server *cough* )

I kinda like it when the 1St rates where more restricted behind RvR but I agree it wasn’t fair for smaller nations and clans at that time, but now we have low BR ports so therI is no excuse.  If a casual none cleaner wants one they could always buy one off a RvR clan for a price.

though I think limiting port battler would be the best way to restrict the use of 1st rates and some SOL.  1st rates should only be used in regional capital PB not all deep water.  Make some ports only 4th rate and below or 3rd rates.  That would give some of the br ports more variety and allow more ships in the smaller br ports than what we get now.

 Also have 1st rates only able in deep water habors which would be most of your regional capitals.  That way they can’t be all over the map at any time. We need to give more reason to use the mid tier ships more and more.

7 hours ago, Johnny Rotten said:

Remove Pirate nation from being able to sail SOLs.

#MakePiratesGreatAgain

That fine but pirates ar the only ones that can capture SOL ships.  Anything above a 4th rate a national captures is sent back to the Admirality and not keep.  4th rates and below any one can capture though.

2 hours ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

I don't know anyone who was particularly upset on the PVE server by the more restrictive change, people just adjusted to the new mechanics and explored other ships while they built up resources to get SoLs. I saw far more frustration from the PVP playerbase concerned about death spirals and having strong enough ships for port battles anyway.

Please have a bit more respect, we all want a good game here, Insulting the PVE players doesn't achieve anything and especially when its not even true, scapegoating the more casual playerbase and making them feel unwanted only hurts the game in the long run, especially when the accusations aren't justified. Please can we stop this now, its been a continuous damaging aspect pushing people away for years.

You didn’t read what he put like typical y’all jump to something thinking it’s something else.  What he was meaning if you didn’t like the 1st rate restrictions on PVP server you can go to PVE server where there is no RvR or Clan restrictions on SOL at that time.  In fact y’all can even capture them so don’t even have to craft them over there.  He wasn’t trying to insult any one on the PVE serve so calm your titts  man.

Edited August 10, 2018 by Sir Texas Sir

[Tiedemann]

8 hours ago, William Death said:

A better idea:

• Remove the useless speed cap. It breaks more things than it helps.
• Nerf Pirate Rig and Spanish Rig some (don't ruin the mods, just nerf them bit by bit till we find a balance).
• Nerf speed bonuses/negatives provided by wood types: the difference in speed between fir/fir and LO/WO should be less than it is now.
• Make all modules available in 4 ways: RNG loot, Crafting with resources and books, PvP marks, or Combat Marks (enormous amounts of combat marks, obviously).
• Introduce diminishing returns for stacking all modules of the same category (reload, speed, turn, hp) (stacking 2 speed mods @ 2% speed each does not equal +4% speed, instead more like +3.2%, stacking another 2% mod will yield a net bonus of something like 4.5%, etc.). The more you stack, the less you benefit. Negatives still stack normally, obviously. 

This will once again provide room for "average" 5th rates and 4th rates to spread their sails on OW. They'll still get run down by speed-fit Bellonas, Ingermanlands, Endymions, Wapens, etc. (as they should), but the difference in speed between a failfit speedboat and a teak/wo "jack of all trades build" with one or two speed upgrades will be much less than it is now.

Could you please consider posting this  as a suggestion for game development? I think it is a very good idea for balancing upgrades and thereby help balancing game play.  

[AeRoTR]

Yes they should roam freely, but ...

I think it is still too easy to become Commodore,Rear Admiral etc. and command SOLs. I hope progression changes in the future, some more difficult progression / exams / some tasks to fulfill

* Above some rate requiring pvp victories (fuck alt farming) and may be some rvr progression

* After some rank (flag captain?), earnt pve xp amount is greatly reduced for leveling up ranks

* Some kind of SOL exam, requiring the player to maneuvering a SOL in a course within an acceptable time, including several turns into wind and tacking. And final stage fighting against difficult AI which consists of 1 SOL + 2 5th rate or similiar. AI which can shoot chain (like they are shooting the traders), stern camp, go for weak side etc.

* As an officer of a clan which supplies ships to members, I feel it, painful to tell them they will lose their first 1st rates (2-3) even to ai, may be spend more time on a bit smaller ships, yet we can not tell them cause they will not understand and it happens :). In reality most of the rear admirals are not ready for 1st rates.

* Players losing their big ships to other players in small ships and even AI, and developers creating magic stupid perks like DETERMINED DEFENDER to prevent this  (bad connection players, I do understand the boarding should change but I am super against DD at it's current state of being magic perk)

[qw569😳]

3 hours ago, admin said:

Costs of ships and ships of the line is not final. It is lower for testing. Ships of the line buffs planned and being queens of the sea they will be high maintenance.
 

I think the problem has grown out of this

[Njord]

3 hours ago, admin said:

Ships of the line buffs planned and being queens of the sea they will be high maintenance.

You can't imagine how glad I am to read this. I always thought SOLs should be much stronger and especially expensive compared to frigates... In an ideal game ( for me ) the standard PvP ships are schooners and small frigates.

[Vernon Merrill]

8 hours ago, Christendom said:

Lol everytime we try and make this game hardcore mode people quit.  Everyone remembers how quickly the pop died 2-3 weeks after the wipe when the player base was fed up with mission payouts and ship knowledge trees.  Just stop already. 

People want to sail big ships.  Restricting their access to them will just cause more folks to quit   Make them slow and dangerous to sail alone.  Limit them in PBs if we must to help ship diversity.  

 

Yes.  Yes...  ok...   I agree now.  We should just dumb down the game until "I" quit...  like many of the players that "I" played with.  

 

Got it.

 

At this point the devs should just build the game they want and let the tears flow.....

Edited August 10, 2018 by Vernon Merrill