Quaker Guns

[Galt]

I think a good way to maybe help traders who seem so insistent on not carrying guns on their ships would be to add in Quaker guns. They would make the ship look like it was fully armed but it wouldn't take away nearly as much weight as normal guns. This would mean more traders would likely survive hunters (since they look to be properly armed (serious, why would you ever not have guns on your ship‽)) but they also would't have the (x) tons removed from their hold space so they can still carry full load. (Seriously, why is this an issue? The amount of cargo space you lose is negligible...) 

Plus this is just a historic things that a lot of traders carried at this time and it actually helped traders intimidate man o wars from engaging. 

Edit: Basically you could buy three kinds of dummy cannons to mimic longs, mediums, or carros, and load them into any gun slot on any ship. It would be up to the attacker to know what the actual possible gun load out for each kind of ship is to know if they are feasible of not. They wouldn't require any crew and they would only take up maybe a half ton or so (they are just big logs painted black).

I don't feel that this should get in the way of any current content planned for upcoming patched, I also don't think this would take hardly any resources to implement. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaker_gun

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pulo_Aura

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bali_Strait_Incident

Edited August 8, 2018 by Galt

[Galt]

21 minutes ago, Coraline Vodka said:

No one is afraid of any trade ship withor without guns, indiaman is only 75 weight of longs

Reasonably, you are correct. but apparently there is an issue with traders not running guns and while I would feel comfortable in a quin taking on an indiaman, I know a few captains with much less confidence. Plus this is something that actual traders did making it more historically accurate and it doesn't really take anything away from the game. 

Edited August 8, 2018 by Galt

[Palatinose]

I like your idea as an addition to the idea of a sandbox. #choices

Nontheless I never understood players that would throw away their guns for some dozens of tons of weight. Same goes for repairs.

[Galt]

6 minutes ago, Otto Kohl said:

Indiaman without guns can carry 4 parisian furniture. Now you know the secret :p.

or carry three, some other product to fill the difference in tonnage, and you'll know that if you are tagged they are aren't virtually guaranteed to lose the ship and the cargo. 

Edited August 8, 2018 by Galt

[NethrosDefectus]

Let's be honest here, 99% of the time it makes no difference if a trader is carrying guns or not. The only true defence is not to sail without an escort.

[Kejsaren]

3 minutes ago, NethrosDefectus said:

Let's be honest here, 99% of the time it makes no difference if a trader is carrying guns or not. The only true defence is not to sail without an escort.

I do not agree, an armed in indiaman who carries repairs can be trouble (at least for me), maybe not if you are in a frigate but anything less you need to careful.

So, keeping it armed at least give you some fighting chance against smaller ships, even Requins.

 

If you are fighting far from land or reinforcement then probably any small ship will be able to take you, just takes some time. But carrying guns and repairs gives you a fighting chance, possibility to maybe get to a fort if there any nearby, or at least to keep afloat until reinforcement.

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by Po Tsai

[Batman]

Fake guns to avoid demoting after fake Port Battles. Sounds good.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Batman

[Kejsaren]

13 minutes ago, Otto Kohl said:

No it doesent.

A duth indiaman demasted my requin twice before i even get closed enough to do effect stern shots. He did it with his aft guns. An indiaman pretty fast unloaded i had to exit battle re-tag.

Like i said in the long run it will be difficult, but if yer close to forts or can expect reinforcement then they may safe your ship no matter what Otto says.

[Sir Texas Sir]

10 minutes ago, Otto Kohl said:

No it doesent.

Lets be real, no one runs a solo trade ships when they are making those runs.  They normally will have 2-4 Indiaman.  If you put those other 1-3 on sails your going to rip up any solo hunters ships to piece so they will most likely run.   If you actually don't make them all out of fir/fir and can stand up to some broad side you get those sails down you can than target the hull and put a hurt on that hunter.  Now I'll agree if there is multi hunters your pretty much screwed as long as there is one hunter per ship pretty much it's a lost from the start, but if you out number them you have a fighting chance. I sent folks running that have taged me with two fleet ships in tow cause I turned and fought them.  I also run myself board fit cause if they do pull one of my ships than I move right next to them and start to kill there crew and pull for a board.  380  crew and three board mods is enough to kill most folks solo hunting out there if you have half a clue what your doing.

As for Trader brigs they are pretty much fucked cause of crew against anything other than 7th rates they our going to be out gun and crewed either way so you just buy time as you retreat and run.   LGV's are a different story cause hardly any one uses them cause they are going for max cargo space.  It really needs some love.  

 

As for OP the only way this would matter is if the OW tag tells you something like, '5th rate 20 guns' a LGV normally but some one with false guns might have '5th Rate 38 guns' Belle Poule.   You will give it gun count of ships very simular to the trader ship.  NOt sure what ship the Indiaman would match with in game.    This would actually work great if we had paints and you could paint that trader ships to look very much like a war ship counter part or even have some paints that made warhsips look like trade ships since that is our only indicater in game is what the ship looks like in the OW.  This would be an interesting addition in the game along with false flags (maybe for pirates/privateers) that allow you to look as if you are a national ship of the false flag until you tag the other players ships.  Than upon battle start your true flag shows and battle begins.  But I can see that so being abused even if it's just a pirate only skill.

[Palatinose]

45 minutes ago, Otto Kohl said:

Indiaman without guns can carry 4 parisian furniture. Now you know the secret :p.

indiaman with guns carrys 4 and still has 700k hold left. Let the big trader boiz talk Toto. Trader pleb.

[Galt]

8 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

As for OP the only way this would matter is if the OW tag tells you something like, '5th rate 20 guns' a LGV normally but some one with false guns might have '5th Rate 38 guns' Belle Poule.   You will give it gun count of ships very simular to the trader ship.  NOt sure what ship the Indiaman would match with in game.    This would actually work great if we had paints and you could paint that trader ships to look very much like a war ship counter part or even have some paints that made warhsips look like trade ships since that is our only indicater in game is what the ship looks like in the OW.  This would be an interesting addition in the game along with false flags (maybe for pirates/privateers) that allow you to look as if you are a national ship of the false flag until you tag the other players ships.  Than upon battle start your true flag shows and battle begins.  But I can see that so being abused even if it's just a pirate only skill.

I think the worst thing about the Indiaman is the very distinctive stern carvings. If you could remove those, paint it black with a white stripe then I think people would really thing twice tagging you. I also really love the idea of the tag just displaying the rate and what gunload you can expect. I think these dummy guns can go a long way to deter people with that kind of vague information. Really rewards you for knowing the subtle differences between some ships. (I still mix up connies and trincs) 

I usually like to run a really heavy trader: LO/WO, large caliber guns all around and two fir/fir fully fit indiamen in fleet. They run sails while you tank it out. I lasted a really long time until @Le Raf Boom came along.

 

[NethrosDefectus]

30 minutes ago, Palatinose said:

indiaman with guns carrys 4 and still has 700k hold left. Let the big trader boiz talk Toto. Trader pleb.

Only if you have "hold optimisation" and then you can only use 3 ships

[Sir Lancelot Holland]

"As for OP the only way this would matter is if the OW tag tells you something like, '5th rate 20 guns' a LGV normally but some one with false guns might have '5th Rate 38 guns' Belle Poule.   You will give it gun count of ships very simular to the trader ship.  NOt sure what ship the Indiaman would match with in game.    This would actually work great if we had paints and you could paint that trader ships to look very much like a war ship counter part or even have some paints that made warhsips look like trade ships since that is our only indicater in game is what the ship looks like in the OW.  This would be an interesting addition in the game along with false flags (maybe for pirates/privateers) that allow you to look as if you are a national ship of the false flag until you tag the other players ships.  Than upon battle start your true flag shows and battle begins.  But I can see that so being abused even if it's just a pirate only skill."

 

The British East India company routinely painted their ships hull's to look like warships, they also carried Company Soldiers (or mercenaries if you like) as well as ex navy gunners, those guys were real serious about keeping their cargo's! 

The use of national flags as a ruse de Guerre has always been legitimate as long as those colours were struck and the fight carried out under the ships real national colours, it was certainly true of 'Q' ships like Pinguin, but not of AMC's like Rawalpindi, even Graf Spee was known to have impersonated a U.S, cruiser and nominally flew the Stars and Stripes as a ruse de guerre, as well as using her sister ships names to confuse the enemy. Such measures date back to this period, and, that being said, Captain Haddock commanding RMS Lusitania (which was according to Janes Fighting Ships was an Armed Merchant Cruiser despite never having carried a gun) during WWI was censured for using Ammercan colours to avoid U-boat attack!

Even during WWII for the St. Nazaire raid several lend lease U.S. Destroyers were disguised as German DD's and flew German Naval ensigns until engaged when the White ensigns were broke out and German colours struck.

So yes such measures would be legitimate and would definitely add another level of immersion at a tactical level.  

•  

[Archaos]

57 minutes ago, Po Tsai said:

I do not agree, an armed in indiaman who carries repairs can be trouble (at least for me), maybe not if you are in a frigate but anything less you need to careful.

So, keeping it armed at least give you some fighting chance against smaller ships, even Requins.

For any player with a moderate amount of skill, they should have no trouble against an AI controlled Indiaman especially in a Le Requin. I would not class myself skilled in sailing the Le Requin, but earlier today I was able to take on a player in an Endy with two Indiamen in fleet and I had no problem sinking one Indiaman even with the Endy firing at me and both Indiamen were armed.

The only people who are really asking for traders to arm themselves is those who want the traders to fight back in some way. I dont know if it gives them some form of satisfaction that it is PvP if their prey shoots back even though there is little to no hope.

[Galt]

21 minutes ago, Archaos said:

For any player with a moderate amount of skill, they should have no trouble against an AI controlled Indiaman especially in a Le Requin. I would not class myself skilled in sailing the Le Requin, but earlier today I was able to take on a player in an Endy with two Indiamen in fleet and I had no problem sinking one Indiaman even with the Endy firing at me and both Indiamen were armed.

The only people who are really asking for traders to arm themselves is those who want the traders to fight back in some way. I dont know if it gives them some form of satisfaction that it is PvP if their prey shoots back even though there is little to no hope.

To be fair, if you lose those odds you deserve to lose everything. 

I wasn't bitter when I lost all my books and paints a few months ago. I sail with the captain that did it now and I don't expect anything back. He won it fair and square. Losing a battle honorably, especially in a trader, isn't something to be ashamed or scared of. Yeah it can suck having to recover (I took a couple months off the game and now I am back on the blue) but in the end that is part of the game's experience for traders. You are going to lose, but I prefer it not to be every time so I always run as heavy as possible. A LO/WO indy is no joke. Put some carta, basic hull, and pino masts and you're pretty much set for life. If the ship sinks, it sinks. You recover, move on, and go make more of that sweet, sweet gold. 

But I would definitely think twice about facing down three indiamen, with a captain I have experienced before and I know to be even a decent player. Even if the player is the only one using guns, the AI would appear to have guns with the dummies and I'd peace out. No use risking a valuable quin just for some PvP marks that I stand a better chance to get on a less lucky player. Hell, you can just load Quakers on your fleet ships to make it look like they are packing but don't have to worry about them keeping themselves tagged into the battle. 

TL,DR: Don't use it if you can't afford to lose it 

[Galt]

6 minutes ago, Sir John said:

Quaker guns are only really effective at extreme ranges... In reality, fleets caught first sight of one another at ranges far greater than those in naval action.  You cannot see guns in the OW anyway

No, and they should fix that. But this also plays into the previous conversation of giving some sort of gun load out information when you start the tag. It should be easy to make people think you are a heavy frigate even though you aren't. 

[Tiedemann]

Why not just close the cannon hatches on all ships in OW?  

[Archaos]

2 hours ago, Galt said:

I think the worst thing about the Indiaman is the very distinctive stern carvings. If you could remove those, paint it black with a white stripe then I think people would really thing twice tagging you. I also really love the idea of the tag just displaying the rate and what gunload you can expect. I think these dummy guns can go a long way to deter people with that kind of vague information. Really rewards you for knowing the subtle differences between some ships. (I still mix up connies and trincs) 

My ship recognition is lousy too, I twice in the same session tagged a Bellona which had Indiamen in fleet, I guess it was the fact that he had medium fleet ships that made me think he was an Indiaman too. Anyway even though it was a Bellona I still had a go in a Le Requin and almost sank one of his fleet Indiamen, but was taking too much damage from the Bellona so I disengaged.

For me personally whether the trader is armed or not I would still give it a go especially if it is just traders. This of course is mainly due to the OP nature of the Le Requin and the fact that I know I am still likely to be able to escape if things start going wrong. This also appears to be the same for a lot of other people judging by the new names popping up regularly in the KPR green zone all sailing Le Requins.

[Farrago]

I always arm my traders.

Even if I ultimately die, I can cause the raider some damage, probably causing him to have to use some repairs that then won't be available to him if my brothers or I can catch him in warships before he is able to restock. That sort of effort is important to me from a roleplaying aspect. 

[Thonys]

4 hours ago, Coraline Vodka said:

No one is afraid of any trade ship withor without guns, indiaman is only 75 weight of longs

what about this Indiaman 

better than a tree.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by Thonys

[Powderhorn]

I personally have always been a fan of Quaker Guns.  It doesn't have to confuse or slow down the best players in the game.  There are other players out there.

[Kejsaren]

3 hours ago, Archaos said:

For any player with a moderate amount of skill, they should have no trouble against an AI controlled Indiaman especially in a Le Requin. I would not class myself skilled in sailing the Le Requin, but earlier today I was able to take on a player in an Endy with two Indiamen in fleet and I had no problem sinking one Indiaman even with the Endy firing at me and both Indiamen were armed.

The only people who are really asking for traders to arm themselves is those who want the traders to fight back in some way. I dont know if it gives them some form of satisfaction that it is PvP if their prey shoots back even though there is little to no hope.

Not talking about AI controlled indiaman. But yes they should also be armed. I just attacked a Bellona with 2 indiaman. I went for bellona and one of the indiaman messed up my broadside pretty bad during the short time I raked the bellona. I had to turn to indiaman and board it. So Bellona got away.

Now if indiamans would have been unarmed that Bellona could be in trouble.

 

But by all means, go unarmed just makes life easier for those who hunt them.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Po Tsai

[Bluetooth]

The OP suggestion is a good one. It may help with the new rule proposal of fleets not being able to escape but most real Hunters don't fear any armed trader.

(4 fully armed Indiamans maybe).

But let's be honest how many 4 indiaman fleets do you come across?

Normal traders are screwed with this new rule change which makes their fleet drop anchor until the player has been sunk so the hunter can repair and take the next one.

It's silly and does not make any sense.

The fleet would be long gone.

 

Edited August 9, 2018 by Crow