Imported vessels - limited capture; safe teleport using fleets fix

[z4ys]

3 hours ago, Macjimm said:

I can only speak for myself but:

1) I'm not wanting a free trip home.  I chose to play on the PvP rather than the PvE.  I'm okay with the risk.  BUT it really seems weird if I have to be  attacked 4 times, by the same hunter, at the same spawn point.  

2) I don't carry cannons.  I enjoy trading and fleeing.  I keep the hold at 50% for more speed.  Cannons won't help much, if I'm stupid enough to get in an instance and allow my sails to be damaged, the battle is over.  The choice to sail without cannons had nothing to do with cargo space. Paying attention and avoiding the attack is key.  But if I screw up and allow an attack to happen does it not seem reasonable that one ship is caught while the others scatter and run away.

3) As a merchant I am occasionally lucky enough to get some fighters to escort me.  Most of the time no-one is available.  But I'm a merchant, not a warship with cargo.  I use very small trade ships.  Attempts to fight back would be futile and pathetic.  Seems sad that I will be forced to watch my whole fleet be picked off one at a time.  I would rather have a chance for some ships to escape.

Wonder if trade ships could be exempt from the one-at-a-time slaughter.

You know that a Grp of attackers would get all the ships right?

So let's focus on 1 attacker and 4 defender because that's the only case when scatter works.

It's still possible to scatter. Just surrender at distance and get a headstart while attacker is sailing and securing the prize. If done right it's over 1 min advantage to get away. Then we have the invisibility time that can make it impossible to predict where you will come out of warp. I wrote can because some player like to chose the obvious route.....

There are so many mechanics to protect players but giving free rides to safety is the ultimate safety a merchant can have. Let's be honest I bet there are some merchants out that did not put any goods on their ship and divided all the goodies between the AI ships because they know when attacked the attacker will focus on them while fleet can escape and will be teleported to safety.

And last but not least. Canons do the difference in a 1 attacker vs 4 defender.

When staying together with the AI and actively controlling them it's possible to repel the enemy by focusing the hull. Furthermore AI has unlimited chain.....

Then it's possible to switch ships at the battle start. Take warship into your fleet. And switch to it during the fight against 1 attacker. You don't need to sail it in the first hand when you need to smuggle. But just have it in fleet. 

How to switch? Just order AI to stop sail close and transfer crew during battle.

There are many tools to defend the merchant fleet. But most of merchant that I encounter choose to be prey...

No guns WTF......

Edited August 7, 2018 by z4ys

[Eyesore]

On 8/6/2018 at 10:53 AM, admin said:

If you have a fleet ship you will not be sent to port, but will be assigned to your fleet vessel. 

I geuss the sucker that gets hit, has to pay out more pvp-marks? One for each fleetship?

Why? Because the big groups have to divide them when they only get them for the playership?

If you could not get the fleetships in the instance, then they got away? No need to spawn next to that same attacker again, just to get retagged and sunk (again) and give more marks.

[Archaos]

14 minutes ago, z4ys said:

You know that a Grp of attackers would get all the ships right?

So let's focus on 1 attacker and 4 defender because that's the only case when scatter works.

It's still possible to scatter. Just surrender at distance and get a headstart while attacker is sailing and securing the prize. If done right it's over 1 min advantage to get away. Then we have the invisibility time that can make it impossible to predict where you will come out of warp. I wrote can because some player like to chose the obvious route.....

There are so many mechanics to protect players but giving free rides to safety is the ultimate safety a merchant can have. Let's be honest I bet there are some merchants out that did not put any goods on their ship and divided all the goodies between the AI ships because they know when attacked the attacker will focus on them while fleet can escape and will be teleported to safety.

And last but not least. Canons do the difference in a 1 attacker vs 4 defender.

When staying together with the AI and actively controlling them it's possible to repel the enemy by focusing the hull. Furthermore AI has unlimited chain.....

Then it's possible to switch ships at the battle start. Take warship into your fleet. And switch to it during the fight against 1 attacker. You don't need to sail it in the first hand when you need to smuggle. But just have it in fleet. 

How to switch? Just order AI to stop sail close and transfer crew during battle.

There are many tools to defend the merchant fleet. But most of merchant that I encounter choose to be prey...

No guns WTF......

You have obviously not done a lot of serious trading. On one hand you say that the traders are stupid for not having guns just so they can get the extra 50t of cargo then on the other hand you say that they are sailing a whole ship empty so the attacker gets nothing.

What you also seem to forget is that very seldom does the attacker keep the cargo ship or the goods as usually the value of PvP marks is worth more than the risk of trying to get the trader back to port. With these new mechanics there is even less incentive to attempt to get the trader back to port. Make it so that when traders are capped that the attacker gets no reward, PvP marks or cargo, if the trader is not taken back to port and then you would see a major change in how raiders deal with traders, or alternatively traders should not award PvP marks at all as the cargo should compensate enough. I bet raiders would not like that.

In the 1v4 scenario you keep mentioning having guns is only ever possibly effective on traders of the size LGV and above, lower level traders just do not have the firepower even combined to pose a serious threat to an attacker unless they are attacking in a very small ship. Working closely with 3 other players you may stand a chance but AI are more likely to hinder you by ramming into you, firing broadsides into you, taking out your bow spirit or chaining your sails.

You also seem to miss the point that on the more profitable cargo runs if you are intercepted in enemy territory the chances are more likely that your escaped ships will end up back close to where you started from rather than to your destination.

With regards to your suggestion of having a warship in fleet which you switch to when you are in the instance, well this clearly shows that you have not sailed traders very much and that due to their slow speed and the now smaller tag circle any reasonable capable attacker will be entering the battle very close to you, meaning they are likely to be almost ontop of you and are likely to be in a boarding position before you have changed ships.

I have taken on 4 armed Indiamen in a Le Requin and the only thing that stopped me getting them all was the fact that they were able to escape and in another battle where they remained and fought the only reason I had to let some go because I was damaged was because I was leaving myself exposed by trying to keep them all tagged rather than concentrating on one at a time. With this new system I will be able to concentrate on the player alone while the AI run around ramming into each other, because now I know I will get a second bite at the player once the first battle is completed.

[Hethwill]

We had a patch where the cargo was the most important. Even if it was only for resource wars and denial. And capturing ships from the enemy to replace losses was a victory.

Guess what. Was too harsh taking by the opinions of many fine folk.

Now we have to deal with "ego coins" and damn the Madeira Wine, just sink the poor fellow.

All good, all good.

 

[Eyesore]

13 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

We had a patch where the cargo was the most important. Even if it was only for resource wars and denial. And capturing ships from the enemy to replace losses was a victory.

Guess what. Was too harsh taking by the opinions of many fine folk.

Yes, and now we have dlc and noteships, and more dlc coming and no more economy. Still people find it too difficult, all they want is to win without any effort or logistics or planning. Make the game more shallow seems to be what they want? Good luck with that I'd say.

[Angus MacDuff]

You folks who are suggesting that Traders with guns are more survivable are just making noise.  They are still sheep.  It just makes it more fun for the attacker.  Big fleets of armed traders are just as easy as the unarmed variety.  I have met one player who was good with his Indiaman guns and that's the last time I sailed a fir/fir PFrig.   I don't see any reason to make traders more vulnerable than they are now and this issue would hurt them.  Throughout the history of Naval warfare, traders have scattered to escape the hunters and we should keep this in the game. 

If anything, make the AI in our fleets smarter.  I was escorting two of my traders (with a warship) this weekend and got tagged.  While I engaged the attacker, I ordered my bots to retreat.  Both of these idiot AIs ran to the shore (instead of away from ALL threats) and were engaged by the fort!!! One eventually got away but the other was sunk.  I then exited and carried on with my (smaller) group.  Both of my Bots should have easily escaped the instance.  Trading is a big part of the game and if we make it too difficult for them, there will be less to hunt. Cull the herd...don't wipe it out. 

On the point of attaining escorts from other players, that's just not workable for many people.  Lots of players don't have a close network of friends in the game and most players have no interest in sailing for a long trip doing nothing but following a trader.  If I have the time to do that, then I have the time to hunt Traders!  Far more fun.

[NethrosDefectus]

On 8/6/2018 at 9:53 AM, admin said:

 

• If you have no fleet after battle you will be sent to port. If you have a fleet after battle (for example your previous ship) you will be assigned to the ship in your fleet.

 

So that means if Player A attacks Player B and Player B has say an Endymion and two LGVs in fleet for example:

Player A sinks the Endymion but the Indiamans have managed to escape, Player B will then spawn on the battle position now in an indiaman?

So then Player A just picks those two Indiamans off one battle at a time because Player B is going to just keep spawning on the same spot until he/she is out of ships?

Seems like all that is gonna do it cost the game more players.

[Hethwill]

You have a point - In theory seems bleak. In practice you will want to fight harder... maybe. Just maybe.

[RaimundoJoe]

Its a lot easier, to write a few code lines and create some real content. Insted u chase away even more players. Great stuff!

If there is such a big need to make traders a target, why not involve them in the conquest game? Have them transport diffrent materials to places that are under attack. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by RaimundoJoe

[AeRoTR]

Who are giving these great ideas to Developers while devs super busy with the upcoming patches. Yet they find the urgency to put these so great ideas into next patches? 

I am sure the developers do not understand their own game or the player base. 

Omg the feature I always had dreams about. Keep killing trader ships in the fleet one by one or keep fighting the hunter over and over again. Such a needed mechanic, was our biggest problem in game and it will be solved! 

Why not increase the stupid 1minutes 30 seconds timer? Why not put control for all ships? 

There will be a huge reaction from traders and casuals, this is such a wrong decision. Btw I trade minimal, sometimes carry resources once in a while, I am not a trader. 

Do not fix something which is not broken, but please fix the broken things, Dear @admin.

Once broken things are fixed, you can play around, salute o7

[Macjimm]

1 hour ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

. In practice you will want to fight harder... maybe. Just maybe.

This sums up the change.  Some small traders rely on avoidance and speed.  Their entire defense is to flee.

Create a mechanic that forces them into pathetic little fights.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Macjimm

[Hethwill]

hmmm, maybe everyday sugar trade might use the schooners and the big operations use the indiamans along with other players protecting them ?

I mean, i don't know. One of the things that will happen is the non-stop tags, but that already happens.

[RaimundoJoe]

Or maybe, 500 are way to manny players. Lets try 'less is more'!

Maybe ...

[Hethwill]

What's your solution ?

Just pure combat ?

By the seven hells sir, you are right !

Devs, no eco upgrade needed. Stop development at once !

 

 

[Macjimm]

4 hours ago, z4ys said:

You know that a Grp of attackers would get all the ships right? ....

No guns WTF......

Yes, I always have understood that if a fleet of 4 traders is pulled into an instance with 4 or more well armed and skilled raiders, then all of the traders will likely be captured and/or sunk.

It seems that the teleporting fleet ships to the nearest port is considered a bug that must be squashed.  Too bad fleet ships can not teleport at distance away from the instance spawn point.  This would simulate the situation of 1 raider verses 4 traders without the raider magically being teleported along side each trader.

Thanks for the surrender tip,  I'll test it out.

A forced mechanic that teleports traders back into the grip of the raider, and eliminates the possibility to scatter and flee, might still work out okay.  I'm ready to try it.  I'm not prepared to start shooting.  

In an age of sail game there should be some unarmed merchants in trader lynx and trader cutters.  

[RaimundoJoe]

34 minutes ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

Devs, no eco upgrade needed. Stop development at once !

 

 

Man, u are strange!

Tell me sir, how is killing taders helping the game economy?

Or, in what way forcing a trader to put up a weak fight, with each one of its fleet ships, helps the game economy?

How does trading with one ship, instead of tree or four, is going to improve the game economy?

Inserting grief, then make small and slow improvments, that's what is all about this game!

[jodgi]

3 hours ago, NethrosDefectus said:

So that means if Player A attacks Player B and Player B has say an Endymion and two LGVs in fleet for example:

Player A sinks the Endymion but the Indiamans have managed to escape, Player B will then spawn on the battle position now in an indiaman?

So then Player A just picks those two Indiamans off one battle at a time because Player B is going to just keep spawning on the same spot until he/she is out of ships?

Seems like all that is gonna do it cost the game more players.

Then on the flipside; Why should traders have so much safety?

Is it bad for the game that people rolling around in big personal trader fleets stand to lose all their shit when they don't have sufficient protection?

The obvious solution is to stop dragging bots around and limit your exposure to loss and re-tagging by sailing one ship. Why is that so bad?

I don't believe in the concept of pve grinding in all it's forms and in (total) safety is a long term health factor for the game.

[Hethwill]

Must admit I am very confused regarding this.

I like the opportunity to capture ANY ship within the instance if my ship is sinking.

The transfer of the captain to the fleet ship is a block for "catapults" by using fake attacks and sacrificing a minor ship.

But all the noise regarding loss or no loss, retags and what not is really confusing me.

[jodgi]

1 minute ago, Sir Hethwill the RedDuke said:

But all the noise regarding loss or no loss, retags and what not is really confusing me.

Hehe, I look at it this way; They don't know what they want or are conflicted.

When presented with the IDEA of loss: "This is great! It gives meaning and depth to the game."

When presented with in-game loss: "This is terrible! This will drive me and everyone else away from the game!"

[HMS Victory]

On 8/6/2018 at 1:30 PM, dark lord rediii said:

Will le broken and hercules be rebalanced in next patch?

Nice feature btw.

Please don't touch ma Trollcules *_*

[Aquillas]

2 hours ago, Macjimm said:

This sums up the change.  Some small traders rely on avoidance and speed.  Their entire defense is to flee.

Create a mechanic that forces them into pathetic little fights.

This is done. No trader with hold 50% filled can outrun or resist to a xebec.

I agree: pathetic no-fights (PVzero)

Edited August 7, 2018 by Eleazar de Damas

[RaimundoJoe]

1 hour ago, jodgi said:

Hehe, I look at it this way; They don't know what they want or are conflicted.

When presented with the IDEA of loss: "This is great! It gives meaning and depth to the game."

When presented with in-game loss: "This is terrible! This will drive me and everyone else away from the game!"

I dont give a shit about pixel loss, i dont even trade so much, i dislike the ideea of picking on the weak one all the time. Last time was carebears, removed all safety and left them with a trapp called 'safe zone'. Now let's destroy traders life!

@jointventure what do you think about this planned change? It's about trading more or less...

[z4ys]

@admin while those changes look like to purge the surrender/ easy safety exploit will we see the idea of physical rewards ( rewards that have to be transported in hold rather captains chest) withthin the next patches?

Edited August 7, 2018 by z4ys

[Archaos]

2 hours ago, jodgi said:

Then on the flipside; Why should traders have so much safety?

Is it bad for the game that people rolling around in big personal trader fleets stand to lose all their shit when they don't have sufficient protection?

The obvious solution is to stop dragging bots around and limit your exposure to loss and re-tagging by sailing one ship. Why is that so bad?

I don't believe in the concept of pve grinding in all it's forms and in (total) safety is a long term health factor for the game.

You say that traders want more safety and that they roll around in big personal trader fleets, but the fact is that traders run the greatest risk because the more cargo they have the slower they become, their ships are limited to 3 knowledge slots, they have less crew than a same class warship and where before you could relatively safely transport small amounts of goods around on trader lynxes, the introduction of Le Requin has killed that.

If a single raider comes upon a fleet of 4 ships why should he automatically be able to kill them off one at a time? If the trader is caught by multiple ships then he is likely to lose all his ships. So why dont the raiders have to hunt in packs to stop trader fleets? Maybe the raiders should have fleet raiders with them so they could assign individual AI raiders to individual AI traders? I remember once I commented how I was caught on a trade run and I got my fleet to escape my having the raider follow me in one direction while my fleet escaped in the other direction and the comment someone made on this forum was that I was lucky as if it had been them that caught me they would have sunk my AI traders first then come for me. So why are people asking for it to be made easier for raiders, why should they have it so easy?

The reason you need to drag bots around is otherwise many trade runs are not worth the time it takes, currently with the overload bug many ports are making huge sums of money due to the amount of goods being traded. Once this overload bug is fixed the money will drop drastically as there will not be as much cargo traded.

[Tom Farseer]

While I too am sceptical about the changes disceussed here, I don't think that a lot of this retagging will happen because after the first battle the trader will have the "Recently Killed" status [X] unless that gets changed. Hunters in hostile waters might think twice on wether it's worth sinking the rest of the fleet for close to no reward or take on the ships and sail them home, which could take quite a while.
I would however suggest extending the [X] timer for a lot longer or at least until the recently killed player reaches a home port. Otherwise people can exploit this by retagging and kiting the killed trader for an hour getting another round of at this point basically free PvP-Marks once the timer runs out.