DLC ships

[vazco]

10 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Why he can not? I thought that franz is willing to face the odds means joe will notice his chance and fight.

My experience so far is that Hercules trumps almost everything. In teak/teak Herc I out-DPS'd a WO/WO Consti by gluing to it's side. So far I also killed a Wappen, Bellona, PFrig. I lost a Trinc to one.

1st and 2nd rates would stand no chance due to low maneuverability. 4-5th rates have some chance to demast it, but it's not trivial. 6th rates stand no chance. The only thing that trumps Herc is more Herc, or more ships on enemy side.

It's simply an OP ship, it shouldn't be so good that it's meta. It's as if OP Wasa returned, in a miniature form now.

Yesterday Brits sailed into a 5k BR port (Nippes) only on Herculi. I wonder how this battle ended up  

It's bad to have any OP ship. It's even worse if this ship is a DLC ship.

[z4ys]

2 minutes ago, vazco said:

My experience so far is that Hercules trumps almost everything. In teak/teak Herc I out-DPS'd a WO/WO Consti by gluing to it's side. So far I also killed a Wappen, Bellona, PFrig. I lost a Trinc to one.

 

You can do that in a prince, privateer as well. Are the ships broken too?

Edited July 16, 2018 by z4ys

[vazco]

14 minutes ago, z4ys said:

You can do that in a prince, privateer as well. Are the ships broken too?

no, you can't  They have way too low firepower. Enemy can just out-repair you.  Even a Niagara can't compete - firepower of Hercules is 150% of Niagara's. In case of Prince, its 240%. I won't even mention a Privateer.

Edited July 16, 2018 by vazco

[Lovec1990]

we need proper 5th rate DLC frigate like diana or santa so they will be less OP 

[Sir Loorkon]

My experiance with the Herc is that this ship can beat nearly every other ship in the game. It is hopelessly OP. After testing I dismanteled mine and will not sail one of those ships until it gets nerved.

It is to fast, can outturn every frigate and outgun — as Vazco mentioned above— even a Constitution. This is just boring. I see no point in crafting Endymions or Trincos when those ships can be sunk easyly by an average player in his Herc. I recently lost a good Trinc against a Herc and I had no chance at all in this duel.

I saw a ocen full of Wasas month ago and it took month to get them nerved. I hope it will not take month to nerv this Hercules—thing. 

It will take only a litle time and the most common ship we will see — if any — will be a Hercules. This is boring. When this OP Hercules will stay as it is, the game will turn to p2w. Admin mentioned that other ships might get buffed to be a craftable counterpart, but this will not work because ALL ships can be beaten by a Herc with an average captain. It is simply hoplessly OP. 

I would like to support the development of this good game and I bought the DLC „asmirality connections“ and I am willing to buy other DLC but I will not buy a DLC to get a ship with an instant win button. The Snow was and is a OP ship. The Herc is much better than a Snow. I can not understand why such an unbalaced ship was implemented.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Sir Loorkon said:

I can not understand why such an unbalaced ship was implemented.

From an economic (developer's) point of view: OP ship = Many people will buy the DLC. Average ship = Not so many will buy the DLC.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Guest

[Corona Lisa]

21 hours ago, z4ys said:

The only thing about those ships is that with very little modification effort they get into the high end class while ships like renomee, bellona etc need way more love (aka gear) to reach that lvl. Suddenly average Joe can compete with elite Franz.

So they are balanced if you use less upgrades and skill knowledges on them  

[Sir Loorkon]

Joernsson, you are right, but on the long run it will turn to the oposite and that is what I fear because this game has a unique high potential.

When the Wasa was OP, I decided not to use it and used Bellonas. With this decision I still had a chance in a fight Wasa against Bellona.

Now the problem is even bigger. I like Endymions and Trinkos but I learned yesterday that I do not have a chance against a Herc sailed by an average captain. So what should I do? It is pointless to go out hunting alone in a Trinko or Endymion when it can be wracked by a ship that is faster, more turnable and has more firepower and can — when beeing sunk — spawn every day. 

I know that I am a tester in this game that will release some day and as a tester I have to say that the way the game took with this OP DLC—ship is dangerous. Just think about the past. It was so boring when 50% of all ships in OW where Wasas.

I will think it over. Maybe I will buy the Herc—DLC To prove this but I fear this will boar me to much.

[Sir Texas Sir]

18 hours ago, Lovec1990 said:

we need proper 5th rate DLC frigate like diana or santa so they will be less OP 

The PAndora should be a 6th rate so a 5th rate would make since.  I still think both ships should be 5th rates and keeped out of shallow PB.

[GhastlyGhost]

18 hours ago, Lovec1990 said:

we need proper 5th rate DLC frigate like diana or santa so they will be less OP 

Is it sarcasm ?

Everyone who asked for DLC now "have blood on  hands". It`s alpha and some players want change it to P2W. Everyone who defend ship and outpost DLC are blind and need glasses.

[Slim McSauce]

37 minutes ago, GhastlyGhost said:

Is it sarcasm ?

Everyone who asked for DLC now "have blood on  hands". It`s alpha and some players want change it to P2W. Everyone who defend ship and outpost DLC are blind and need glasses.

The worse part is it's not P2W in the traditional sense. No, it's pay to win that dissolves the meta and creates a system of non-economy on a game that needs a functioning economy to justify everything in it. Like what's the point of fighting a 4th rate PB if by then we have a 4th rate DLC ship that is good like the ones now, and people use the ship that costs nothing? You've turned RVR into an unserious scrimmage.

This isn't exclusive to RVR, I'm on the OW looking to cut down your shipping, or just cause you grief because you attacked my nation/clan the night before. Now I attack you but low and behold you're sailing your free redeemable and you're not taking the battle seriously because you don't care about the ship and why should you. At the point we have 5 of these DLC ships why should anyone care about the economy focused side of the game anymore? Everyone is running around in free redeemable ships.

If things did turn out that way it'd be RIP for NA in my eyes. I play for the realistically set open world, economy, crafting, player driven game. I don't play NA to have repeat battles over and over again. What's at stake in the battle? What is there to gain? It's the motive of the economy and getting rich and powerful that drive the game. Now I can buy economic and logistic invincibility? No thanks.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Hethwill]

On 7/9/2018 at 11:57 AM, victor said:

the comparison is clear, the fact that you have decided once for good which is the funding model of NA does not convince me, since - as I said - if devs, during these two years - have changed the game from arena to open world and, then, from simple MMO to hardcore sandbox, they can also change the way to fund the game.

I have the impression that since YOU personally like the actual model of game/funding, you use the argument of what the game "IS" as if it was a good argument in discussions about what the game "should be" to make it appealing to more potential players. But it is not.

You confuse analysis of "what is" with preference of "what if".

I like a good old Sheldon approach to these matters. No sarcasm.

[Palatinose]

Vazco did I ever tell you I love you? 

Imo it's pretty easy: OP imported ship gets in the game, some buy it some don't. The "elite Franz" complains a little, but as no reaction is in sight they will just also buy the DLC. Why? Well 10€ isn't too much, for the chance of getting back cool ow fights they can always choose. Now the casuals and  non gear-peeps who at first sight were so happily sailing boats on which they could take a fight against an "uber-elite full uber-modded" player, suddenly realise it's all the same as before. You can still mod this ship, experienced players are still better than casuals and nothing changed but you spend some money and enjoyed two weeks of having the feeling to be good in a game. 

I totally like the idea of DLC ships, people who don't want to craft and have no ingame money have the simple opportunity to bypass this and get into pvp. Cool thing, which in itself is already an advantage compared to those who must gather all the mats and (rare) woods, craft and, sail or tow the ship to the place to be. 

Now the Requin for example  has better base stats than every 6th rate. HP, thickness, speed, mast thickness and hp, turning is okaish, heaviest broadside weight, most overall guns and more than 30% more crew as the next samller 6th. And that's without the meta like the hull shape, the bowsprit, the incredible sailing profile allowing this ship to escape every other ship (even another requin), no matter how many mistakes the captain makes (metaphorically speaking, lets just say the point of no return is from a different galaxy than what we had before in the game). 

So that's three advantages over every other ship in this class - to me that is just too much. Herc is same same but different. Hard to say which one is worse. 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Palatinose

[z4ys]

1 hour ago, Palatinose said:

Vazco did I ever tell you I love you? 

Imo it's pretty easy: OP imported ship gets in the game, some buy it some don't. The "elite Franz" complains a little, but as no reaction is in sight they will just also buy the DLC. Why? Well 10€ isn't too much, for the chance of getting back cool ow fights they can always choose. Now the casuals and  non gear-peeps who at first sight were so happily sailing boats on which they could take a fight against an "uber-elite full uber-modded" player, suddenly realise it's all the same as before. You can still mod this ship, experienced players are still better than casuals and nothing changed but you spend some money and enjoyed two weeks of having the feeling to be good in a game. 

I totally like the idea of DLC ships, people who don't want to craft and have no ingame money have the simple opportunity to bypass this and get into pvp. Cool thing, which in itself is already an advantage compared to those who must gather all the mats and (rare) woods, craft and, sail or tow the ship to the place to be. 

Now the Requin for example  has better base stats than every 6th rate. HP, thickness, speed, mast thickness and hp, turning is okaish, heaviest broadside weight, most overall guns and more than 30% more crew as the next samller 6th. And that's without the meta like the hull shape, the bowsprit, the incredible sailing profile allowing this ship to escape every other ship (even another requin), no matter how many mistakes the captain makes (metaphorically speaking, lets just say the point of no return is from a different galaxy than what we had before in the game). 

So that's three advantages over every other ship in this class - to me that is just too much. Herc is same same but different. Hard to say which one is worse. 

Let us go back in time as there were no dlc ships.

Any uber-elite prince captain could run away from an other prince  like the xebec can now run away from a xebec.

Even during an exact mirror match between 2 princes it's easy to run away. Why nobody complained like now?

Going back even further. A surprise could run away from any square rigger and was more maneuverable than most ships. Why nobody complained as hard as now?

Regarding herc before it got dlc ship the exact same players were saying its fine but should not do portbattles. Now even OW is broken? Why it wasn't before?

Edited July 17, 2018 by z4ys

[vazco]

Ok, an update regarding my experience with a Herc. I went to Mortimer, jumped into mission where 3 pirates - Inger, Consti and Belle Poule were fighting some 5th rates. In 7 minutes I sank a Consti (92% damage), in 20 an Inger (75% damage), BellePoule unfortunately escaped. It's impossible to do this for me even on a Trinc. 

I lost only 3 bars of armor in the process. 

The best part was when I sailed head on inbetween Consti and Inger. I shot both of them. They tried to shoot me, but just like in Captain Blood book, their balls went over my hull and they ended up shooting each other. 

On my way back I made a mistake fighting good player in a Bellona. I lost a ship, but who cares? It wasn't even modded, and I have a new one right away. Let this Bellona have his 6PvP marks. Probably 5 out of 6 times I would sink his modded Bellona in a ship with basic upgrades and get 14+marks. 

This ship is way OP. 

 

[Palatinose]

3 hours ago, z4ys said:

Let us go back in time as there were no dlc ships.

Any uber-elite prince captain could run away from an other prince  like the xebec can now run away from a xebec.

Even during an exact mirror match between 2 princes it's easy to run away. Why nobody complained like now?

Going back even further. A surprise could run away from any square rigger and was more maneuverable than most ships. Why nobody complained as hard as now?

Regarding herc before it got dlc ship the exact same players were saying its fine but should not do portbattles. Now even OW is broken? Why it wasn't before?

You tend to pick out what you like about my comment. There were counters for surprises. Surprise had to be crafted etc. A prince could not easily defeat a mercury. Personally I was fine with the Herc when we had only one for each player. This thing was totally OP, but it was limited. Now there is swarms of Herc's crossing the OW, one alone can defeat two heavy/heavier frigs. If it's two, single captains won't stand a chance in a up to a fourth rate (always saying both parties are on the same/comparable skill level). In my first engagement on a Herc i killed a Trinc with no problems at all. The captain was mediocre skilled, the ship Teak/White Oak. I had killed two thirds of his hull, before he had even really scrtached me. Back to your comparison with the Surprise: it was more manouverable, but it lacked the firepower to kill the hull. It was mainly used in boarding (4pd machine guns and golden marines /o\). Sorry imo you just cannot compare these two.

[Gregory Rainsborough]

We should stop viewing the Herc as a 6th rate, that's the problem, it's a 5th rate and a powerful one but that doesn't mean it does not have weaknesses. It's turn rate is atrocious without mods and can be sterncamped by the snow for instance. It has less crew and loses its bowsprit ridiculously easily. It's not as invincible as people make out because in most cases a quick ram and board puts them out of action. People just don't do it because pew pew.

[Gregory Rainsborough]

Personally I think the DLC should only give one Herc permit per day, as opposed to a Herc note, so that it still has to be crafted from materials in-game. That would at least alleviate the suicidal tendencies of some Herc captains and reduce the quantity of them in OW. It's a treat, not a staple.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Gregory Rainsborough

[HachiRoku]

7 minutes ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

Personally I think the DLC should only give one Herc permit per day as opposed to a Herc note so that it still has to be crafted from materials in-game.

Notes would solve many issues. As I pointed out before. The lack of logistics breaks rvr a a good bit. Banning those ships from pbs is BS because simply balancing them would be enough. This and making the ships capable until battle over would make me happy. Balance is not what this topic is about and others know the shop better than I 

[Gregory Rainsborough]

The problem for PBs is the BR of the ship, it's clearly too low. It shouldn't be 80BR, the same as a snow. The same applies to the Req.

[Lovec1990]

 

Just now, Gregory Rainsborough said:

The problem for PBs is the BR of the ship, it's clearly too low. It shouldn't be 80BR, the same as a snow. The same applies to the Req.

then why this was not done?

[z4ys]

12 minutes ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

Personally I think the DLC should only give one Herc permit per day as opposed to a Herc note so that it still has to be crafted from materials in-game. That would at least alleviate the suicidal tendencies of some Herc captains and reduce the quantity of them in OW. It's a treat, not a staple.

the problem here might be that dlc content has to be available for players. Hiding them behind ingame walls might be against steam dlc rules. but found no source so far.

[Lovec1990]

7 minutes ago, z4ys said:

the problem here might be that dlc content has to be available for players. Hiding them behind ingame walls might be against steam dlc rules. but found no source so far.

not forget they cannot change it now unless they are willing to refound it

[HachiRoku]

8 minutes ago, z4ys said:

the problem here might be that dlc content has to be available for players. Hiding them behind ingame walls might be against steam dlc rules. but found no source so far.

No its not. That's like complaining that you cannot access the last mission of gta if you have not completed the first. You own it true but games do not work like that. Many games require you to "work" for the content and there is definitely not an issue with ship notes. 

[z4ys]

54 minutes ago, Palatinose said:

...fine with the Herc when we had only one for each player. This thing was totally OP, but it was limited. Now there is swarms of Herc's crossing the OW, one alone can defeat two heavy/heavier frigs..

that makes no sense. Nothing changed to the ship just limitation. Thats hypocrisy

Quote

Sorry imo you just cannot compare these two.

both have one thing in common. they exploit game meta at their time. But the reasons most players mentioned here why the ship is op are just wrong.

 

Its op because xebec still has no fixed sail dmg only center shots dmg the rigging

Its op because crew dmg is not working correct (graping the side) - beside the fact some players just dont know how to rake a xebec. Most just shoot like in the picture below only guns have a crew hitbox.

Its op because 1 mod change the ship without effort to this sailing profil

Its op because the side thickness is way to thick for its bouncy hull shape which let it look like a tank of the sea

 

But its not broken because it can hug ships. Every schooner could/can hug. If someone wants to claim that pls mention prince, privateer niagara there as well and dont start to blame herc and xebec alone.

etc

Edited July 17, 2018 by z4ys