Fix infinite chain on fleet ships, it is bullshit

[woodenfish]

I remember a battle on Global with a bunch of 1st-3rd rates where we pulled an AI snow in by accident and it ended up getting the kill on a Bellona because everyone was ignoring it. And everyone is scared of the mighty AI Pickle!

[victor]

3 hours ago, Palatinose said:

God, guys could you once stay on topic @victor and @Intrepido ? In every post, no matter the topic you spawn your opinion. EVERY-F***Ing-BODY on this forum knows it already.

Chill out man. Are you the only one here entitled to talk or write your opinions? 

BTW the reason you do not understand why my posts are on topic, it's the same reason why you - as well as some other players - do not see which are the actual problem of this game, which definitely is NOT infinite chain shots in fleet ships.

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by victor

[Percival Merewether]

15 minutes ago, victor said:

Chill out man. Are you the only one here entitled to talk or write your opinions?

And BTW the reason you do not understand why my posts are on topic, it's the same reason why you - as well as some other players - do not see which are the actual problem of this game, which definitely is NOT infinite chain shots in fleet ships.

@NethrosDefectus suggest something that at least on the surface appeared to be an easy tweak for the next patch, and you dismiss it saying the developers should add content instead.

Why don't you make a seperate new thread in which you suggest the 'new and improved' content that you have in mind? - and while you're here...: tell us why the developers should not limit chain for the AI.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Percival Merewether

[Palatinose]

18 minutes ago, victor said:

Chill out man. Are you the only one here entitled to talk or write your opinions? 

BTW the reason you do not understand why my posts are on topic, it's the same reason why you - as well as some other players - do not see which are the actual problem of this game, which definitely is NOT infinite chain shots in fleet ships.

ok.

[victor]

1 minute ago, Percival Merewether said:

@NethrosDefectus suggest something that at least on the surface appeared to be an easy tweak for the next patch, and you dismiss it saying the developers should add content instead.

Why don't you make a seperate new thread in which you suggest the 'new and improved' content that you have in mind? - and while you're here...: tell us why the developers should not limit chain for the AI.

Because fleet chaining is one of the few effective defensive mechanics left to traders when they are attacked, so nerfing it just means giving another advantage to attackers (which is not actually something that they really need).

Are you happy now?

[Percival Merewether]

12 minutes ago, victor said:

Because fleet chaining is one of the few effective defensive mechanics left to traders when they are attacked, so nerfing it just means giving another advantage to attackers (which is not actually something that they really need).

Most of this thread has been regarding using AI fleets with unlimited chain as an offensive weapon, thus making it harder for your precious traders to escape because the AI has unlimited chain. This is why I suggested the following:

1 hour ago, Percival Merewether said:

limiting AI chain as suggested by @NethrosDefectus would be the best approach, a more drastic step could be disabling AI fleets for attackers.

You could also disable the chain/demast button for the attacking party - or are you also in favour of using AI ships to help hunters slow-down and capture traders?

12 minutes ago, victor said:

Are you happy now?

Don't be a dick about it, that's not going to get us anywhere.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Percival Merewether

[victor]

Just now, Percival Merewether said:

 

Don't be a dick about it, that's not going to get us anywhere.

Instead calling names of other players does, of course.

[NethrosDefectus]

1 hour ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

What I"m not getting is when did this suddenly become a problem. Half the time I see AI in a battle it gets sunk cause it's a small ship in the middle of big ships.  Or it's so much in the way it's a pain.  Never seen folks chain some one to death with an AI, so this must be something new with some folks testing.  Personally I hate the demast option cause half the time my AI is shooting nothing but ball and missing almost all it's shots and not hitting mast (slight damage to sails).

The issue is when players go out hunting with THREE fleet ships, not defensively but actively targeting and tagging ships. I'm not complaining that I can't run away. My issue is that even with their terrible aim, 3 ai ships can still wreck sails very quickly which completely removes any mobility of your ship

[NethrosDefectus]

1 hour ago, Sea Fox said:

Ai fleets are strictly for for defense. They are too dumb to help in attacks

That's where you are wrong, I am not talking about a single fleet ship. I am talking about 2 or 3 which even if they miss 75% of the shots, can can still collectively do a lot of damage to sails quickly, damage that cannot be recovered from because they have an unlimited supply.

[NethrosDefectus]

51 minutes ago, victor said:

Because fleet chaining is one of the few effective defensive mechanics left to traders when they are attacked, so nerfing it just means giving another advantage to attackers (which is not actually something that they really need).

Are you happy now?

The issue is not with defensive use, but offensive use. The "attackers" you mention are already getting an advantage by using it

[NethrosDefectus]

3 hours ago, admin said:

Ai cant aim shots well and cant decide when to do it. Thus if we spend a week adding ai chain shot limitation it will basically mean we removed it because i will just waste during those 2 attempts.
So the easy quick fix would be just to remove the demast button. 

I only have a very basic knowledge of programming, but what would be involved in implementing a system whereby if you are on the offensive side then the "demast" would be disabled? Perhaps this could be a compromise between the current system and removing the button outright.

[victor]

 

20 minutes ago, NethrosDefectus said:

The issue is not with defensive use, but offensive use. The "attackers" you mention are already getting an advantage by using it

Well, when I am being pursued in a trader in OS I almost always try to countertag first as soon the other ship enters in the circle.

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by victor

[MarkusBarak]

5 hours ago, Intrepido said:

Limiting grape could be also interesting to test. It may end some practices like infinite stern raking. Because it is absurd that we think that it is realistic that one ship with 15 small guns loaded with a short range ammo can kill 800 guys in a first rate.

If we did this it would eliminate the small ships from being able to bring down first rates. If we did this though determined defender would need a rework. 

[William Death]

Counter to AI chainshot spam: Chain or demast the AI (which cannot repair).

Remember too that if the player has more than 1 AI ship, he has sacrificed more perks than the standard fighting setup (1 fleet slot) to achieve that, so he may not have carpenter perks, double shot/charge, prepared, determined defender, etc.  

Instead of focusing only on the benefits of sailing with AI fleet, let’s not forget the drawbacks associated. And at the end of the day, it’s still just AI and not too hard to outsmart. 

 

 

Moving back to limiting ammunition and repairs. I agree with @Gregory Rainsborough either bring back unlimited chainshot or limit repairs and limit grape as well. 

[Sir Texas Sir]

3 minutes ago, William Death said:

Counter to AI chainshot spam: Chain or demast the AI (which cannot repair).

Remember too that if the player has more than 1 AI ship, he has sacrificed more perks than the standard fighting setup (1 fleet slot) to achieve that, so he may not have carpenter perks, double shot/charge, prepared, determined defender, etc.  

Instead of focusing only on the benefits of sailing with AI fleet, let’s not forget the drawbacks associated. And at the end of the day, it’s still just AI and not too hard to outsmart. 

 

 

Moving back to limiting ammunition and repairs. I agree with @Gregory Rainsborough either bring back unlimited chainshot or limit repairs and limit grape as well. 

Are for repairs and which would be anther thing to make Battle sails more used....YOU CAN ONLY REPAIR WHILE AT BATTLE SAILS OR LOWER.  It's stupid some one can be full sails and repair sails back to 100% while being chased.  

[NethrosDefectus]

3 hours ago, victor said:

 

Well, when I am being pursued in a trader in OS I almost always try to countertag first as soon the other ship enters in the circle.

 

What part of HUNTERS using fleet ships are you not understanding? I get why a fleet of TRADERS could need it but that is not the issue I have brought up is it?

[NethrosDefectus]

1 hour ago, William Death said:

Counter to AI chainshot spam: Chain or demast the AI (which cannot repair).

Remember too that if the player has more than 1 AI ship, he has sacrificed more perks than the standard fighting setup (1 fleet slot) to achieve that, so he may not have carpenter perks, double shot/charge, prepared, determined defender, etc.  

Instead of focusing only on the benefits of sailing with AI fleet, let’s not forget the drawbacks associated. And at the end of the day, it’s still just AI and not too hard to outsmart. 

 

 

Moving back to limiting ammunition and repairs. I agree with @Gregory Rainsborough either bring back unlimited chainshot or limit repairs and limit grape as well. 

All very well in principle but if you are unable to manoeuvre your ships because your sails are down below 50% then you are never going to be able turn efficiently enough to demast 3 AI and defend yourself against the player at the same time.

It also looks like people think I am talking exclusively about people bring a couple of princes into battle, I am not. I am referring to to players that have 2 or 3 3rd or 4th rates if not higher in their ATTACKING fleet

[NethrosDefectus]

1 hour ago, Rickard said:

dont be so salty!!...

Nice and constructive as ever

[Farrago]

Game play has a lot of problems right now. The biggest problem is not lack of a polished Port UI and the amount fleet ships can chain isn’t even in the top 10.

[William Death]

5 hours ago, NethrosDefectus said:

All very well in principle but if you are unable to manoeuvre your ships because your sails are down below 50% then you are never going to be able turn efficiently enough to demast 3 AI and defend yourself against the player at the same time.

It also looks like people think I am talking exclusively about people bring a couple of princes into battle, I am not. I am referring to to players that have 2 or 3 3rd or 4th rates if not higher in their ATTACKING fleet

Are you arguing that a lone player should be able to win in such a situation? And if the "ATTACKING fleet" is running such large, heavy, slow ships, how did you, the "DEFENDING fleet" get tagged into battle by that unless you are of a similar speed? I'll assume that a similar speed "fleet" (whether thats one ship or a legitimate fleet) would be of similar size and able to fight it without needing to run away.

I just don't see what the problem is if someone sails with some 3rd or 4th rates or 5th or 6th rates in fleet: they'll be slower in OW since speed books and sail force modules don't apply, so really any reasonable speed ship should be able to outrun it at some angle (unless we're talking about an Xebec with 3 fir/fir Xebecs in fleet, but thats more an issue of Xebec's current overly-good sailing profile). And in battle, they will be captained by rather incompetent AI. IMO, if you let the AI do significant damage to you before you can significantly damage it or outsmart it...well...thats on you/your positioning/your ship (or your enemy's superior abilities in the same areas). 

Perhaps you don't like the fleetships because it makes solo hunting more challenging when a player sails with some AI fleetships and uses them competently to either deny you a target or force an engagement where you otherwise would have escaped? As someone who also solo-PvP hunts...sail a bigger ship or fight smaller targets/targets without fleet. Or bring a fleet with you to counter theirs. 

[Sea Fox]

8 hours ago, William Death said:

Counter to AI chainshot spam: Chain or demast the AI (which cannot repair).

Remember too that if the player has more than 1 AI ship, he has sacrificed more perks than the standard fighting setup (1 fleet slot) to achieve that, so he may not have carpenter perks, double shot/charge, prepared, determined defender, etc.  

Instead of focusing only on the benefits of sailing with AI fleet, let’s not forget the drawbacks associated. And at the end of the day, it’s still just AI and not too hard to outsmart. 

 

 

Moving back to limiting ammunition and repairs. I agree with @Gregory Rainsborough either bring back unlimited chainshot or limit repairs and limit grape as well. 

Well said Mr Death! (I'm still not over you sinking me though)😕

[NethrosDefectus]

9 hours ago, William Death said:

Are you arguing that a lone player should be able to win in such a situation? And if the "ATTACKING fleet" is running such large, heavy, slow ships, how did you, the "DEFENDING fleet" get tagged into battle by that unless you are of a similar speed? I'll assume that a similar speed "fleet" (whether thats one ship or a legitimate fleet) would be of similar size and able to fight it without needing to run away.

I just don't see what the problem is if someone sails with some 3rd or 4th rates or 5th or 6th rates in fleet: they'll be slower in OW since speed books and sail force modules don't apply, so really any reasonable speed ship should be able to outrun it at some angle (unless we're talking about an Xebec with 3 fir/fir Xebecs in fleet, but thats more an issue of Xebec's current overly-good sailing profile). And in battle, they will be captained by rather incompetent AI. IMO, if you let the AI do significant damage to you before you can significantly damage it or outsmart it...well...thats on you/your positioning/your ship (or your enemy's superior abilities in the same areas). 

Perhaps you don't like the fleetships because it makes solo hunting more challenging when a player sails with some AI fleetships and uses them competently to either deny you a target or force an engagement where you otherwise would have escaped? As someone who also solo-PvP hunts...sail a bigger ship or fight smaller targets/targets without fleet. Or bring a fleet with you to counter theirs. 

Where in the original post does it say I have an issue with people using fleet ships? My issue is WHY they are using them, they are using them because they have unlimited chain and for no their reason. And again my issue is not with any "significant damage" they can do to my hull, that's not the issue, the issue is with the CHAIN. 

This is NOT about not being able to run away as you seem to think, it's about the manoeuvrability side of it.

For example, Dave is tagged on the way into port by Bruce with his fleets ships (lets just say Endymions for this example) and Bruce starts the battle by ordering his fleet ships to "demast". He then fires his own chain at Dave but he manages to angle his sails to avoid a good portion of it but still loses maybe 5% but then you have 3 other ships all fire their chain and they're firing 24s so even each of them only manage to connect with 2 or 3 shots each, well that's 6-9 24 pounders passing through Dave's sails. So that could easily be another 5-10 percent. So Dave is already down to maybe 85% sails at which point most ships have noticeably reduced manoeuvrability. But he battles on, by this point Bruce is firing ball so Dave is now focusing on angling those shots while also trying to position himself to effectively return fire. BUT the whole time the AI is shooting their unlimited chain taking off 5-10% sails every minute or so, and before Dave knows it, he is down below 60% sails and decides he better repair sails now because he is doing 8knts and can barely turn his ship to angle shots or get off his own. Problem is that the AI still has chain and is still firing it and still only needing 2 or 3 shots each to connect and Dave will be extremely lucky if his sails ever get repaired above 70% and is never going to match Bruce's manoeuvrability or even the fleet ships for that matter. And there's very little point in Dave targeting Bruce's sails because he only has 4 broadsides of chain and Bruce can just retreat and repair them.

And this is assuming Bruce doesn't have other players inside the ports waiting to join the battle.

This is ONLY possible because those fleets ships are not subject to the same restrictions as the players and that's why players have started using them.

THAT'S my issue. 

[Angus MacDuff]

Well, NOW that you've explained it...I see your point.  Solutions?

1. Remove Demast function on attacking fleet.

2. As per Patrol Zone mechanic, attacking fleet ships do not enter battle instance.

3. Limit chain on bots to same as Player ship.

Any others?  I would suggest that defensive fleet ships be left alone.

[William Death]

Solution: Dave shouldn't have gotten tagged by Bruce if he didn't want to face 3 Endymions shooting chain at him. Outmaneuver him in OW and avoid the chainshot rain. Its pretty easy since a fleet Endymion is pretty slow, even fir/fir since the AI won't use your ship-knowledge books to make it faster. I know thats not what you want to do (you want to fight and get some PvP marks, or make an escape from the battle and make it into port)....but whats the issue again? You got tagged by 4 ships (assume all Endymions), chained, and ultimately sunk by them. Would 4 players tagged within chaining range yield a different outcome when they have 16 volleys of chainshot vs your 4? I rather doubt it. The key word in that scenario being "within chaining range at the tag."

Yeah they can spam chain but limiting AI's chainshot will see them waste it, doing little to no damage (pretty sure I've seen my AI chain the hull before). The best/easiest solution is to just bring back unlimited chainshot for all. Or go the full way and limit all types of ammunition, except round ball.

Now let me give you different outcome of a similar scenario:

Dave is sailing an Endymion alone. He wins a few fights and the counter-gank squad shows up in a mix of ships & fleetships to chase him. He outruns them in OW with smart maneuvering and a proper ship build. Also it helps that all of their ships are sailing 1-5knots slower in OW because their fleet ships are slower than their main ships. Thus, he avoids their fleet's chainshot spam and lives to emerge in a slightly different location half an hour later and collect more PvP marks.

[NethrosDefectus]

4 minutes ago, William Death said:

Solution: Dave shouldn't have gotten tagged by Bruce if he didn't want to face 3 Endymions shooting chain at him. Outmaneuver him in OW and avoid the chainshot rain. Its pretty easy since a fleet Endymion is pretty slow, even fir/fir since the AI won't use your ship-knowledge books to make it faster. I know thats not what you want to do (you want to fight and get some PvP marks, or make an escape from the battle and make it into port)....but whats the issue again? You got tagged by 4 ships (assume all Endymions), chained, and ultimately sunk by them. Would 4 players tagged within chaining range yield a different outcome when they have 16 volleys of chainshot vs your 4? I rather doubt it. The key word in that scenario being "within chaining range at the tag."

Yeah they can spam chain but limiting AI's chainshot will see them waste it, doing little to no damage (pretty sure I've seen my AI chain the hull before). The best/easiest solution is to just bring back unlimited chainshot for all. Or go the full way and limit all types of ammunition, except round ball.

Now let me give you different outcome of a similar scenario:

Dave is sailing an Endymion alone. He wins a few fights and the counter-gank squad shows up in a mix of ships & fleetships to chase him. He outruns them in OW with smart maneuvering and a proper ship build. Also it helps that all of their ships are sailing 1-5knots slower in OW because their fleet ships are slower than their main ships. Thus, he avoids their fleet's chainshot spam and lives to emerge in a slightly different location half an hour later and collect more PvP marks.

I don't know about you but my ships are built to fight, NOT to run from battle.