Portuguese 88 Gun 3rd Rate (With Plans)

[Wind]

Name - No Name , Rate - 3rd/2nd , Date - 1811 , Country - Portugal , Guns - Up to 90

Edited July 2, 2018 by Wind

[Wind]

5 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Id say it is a third rate from late XVIII century.

88 guns, 4 decks(rows of guns) + 2 more in stern. That is more like a 2nd rate to me. 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Wind

[Fluffy Fishy]

33 minutes ago, Wind said:

88 guns, 4 decks(rows of guns) + 2 more in stern. That is more like a 2nd rate to me. 

As far as I can see it might not be noted as 88 guns, it could be an 80 gunner where the quarterdeck armament is an afterthought, the 182 is also significant and will likely help you find some form of measurement. Other gun combinations could be anything between about 80-92, also noting that in the top left corner it says Portuguese ships as you pointed out, I would say Nossa Senhora da Conceição/Principe Real of 1771 or Vasco de Gama of 1793

Edited June 30, 2018 by Fluffy Fishy

[Haratik]

Where'd you find her @Wind

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/81037.html lists her as a Portuguese third rate, date unknown but plan seems to have been made roughly 1811.  She appears to have been pierced for 76 guns, if I counted the gunports correctly.  Checking elsewhere now.

Edit: I miscounted, not counting the uppermost slots for carronades, she favors the Vasco da Gama, but aside from her, the only other heavy rates the Portuguese had at this time are the Principe Real and the Principe do Brazil, both listed in excess of 84 guns.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Haratik

[Haratik]

Principe Real is listed at roughly 200' in length

Principe do Brazil is listed at roughly 187' in length (per this site: http://3decks.pbworks.com/w/page/915356/HMFMS Principe do Brasil, though here she is listed as a 74 and not an 80+ gunner, perhaps she was rebuilt?).  She is also listed at roughly 191' in length (per this site: http://marinhadeguerraportuguesa.blogspot.com/2013/04/navios-da-real-marinha-de-guerra.html, which also mentions her as being an 80 gunner from the year 1802 til 1822).

Vasco da Gama is listed at 179' in length (per this site: http://3decks.pbworks.com/w/page/915367/HMFMS Vasco da Gama (1793))

She's not the Medusa, as the Medusa is mentioned as a 74 with the potential to carry 80, but her length is a good 10' less than the lower number of 182'.

However

Queen of Portugal is a 74 with the potential to carry 80, and her length is roughly 187' (http://marinhadeguerraportuguesa.blogspot.com/2013/04/navios-da-real-marinha-de-guerra.html).

Any other info would be welcome.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Haratik

[Wind]

22 hours ago, Haratik said:

Principe Real is listed at roughly 200' in length

Principe do Brazil is listed at roughly 187' in length (per this site: http://3decks.pbworks.com/w/page/915356/HMFMS Principe do Brasil, though here she is listed as a 74 and not an 80+ gunner, perhaps she was rebuilt?).  She is also listed at roughly 191' in length (per this site: http://marinhadeguerraportuguesa.blogspot.com/2013/04/navios-da-real-marinha-de-guerra.html, which also mentions her as being an 80 gunner from the year 1802 til 1822).

Vasco da Gama is listed at 179' in length (per this site: http://3decks.pbworks.com/w/page/915367/HMFMS Vasco da Gama (1793))

She's not the Medusa, as the Medusa is mentioned as a 74 with the potential to carry 80, but her length is a good 10' less than the lower number of 182'.

However

Queen of Portugal is a 74 with the potential to carry 80, and her length is roughly 187' (http://marinhadeguerraportuguesa.blogspot.com/2013/04/navios-da-real-marinha-de-guerra.html).

Any other info would be welcome.

Great info, Thanks. 

[Haratik]

I'm still trying to find out more detail about the plan.  The date 1811 is clearly marked, as is a name toward the bottom of the upper right corner paragraph: Lord Berkeley.  There's not much I can dig up on any Lord Berkeley that existed during the supposed date on the plan.  Of those with the title that existed, only one I can discover that served in the Royal Navy before and after the date, and he became a Sea Lord years later.

I'm afraid it's not much to go on right now, but there's clues to be explored.

Edit: I am mistaken, further research has revealed the service of a Sir George Cranfield Berkeley in the Royal Navy during this period, who happened to be stationed in Portugal during the years preceding the date marked on the plan up until the following year.  Wikipedia notes this:

Berkeley continued building his political status during the Peace of Amiens and by Berkeley had been appointed inspector of sea fencibles, a job he undertook with vigour, conducting a fourteen-month survey of Britain's coastal defences, which greatly improved the island's defences. In 1806, after a shift in political power, Berkeley fell out of favour somewhat and was dispatched to the North American Station. From there, Berkeley ordered the attack by HMS Leopard on the American frigate USS Chesapeake in retaliation for American recruitment of British deserters. This action, known as the Chesapeake-Leopard Affair, helped precipitate the War of 1812.^[2]

Having embarrassed the British government with this action, Berkeley was recalled home. However, public opinion supported his orders, so Berkeley was moved to command in Lisbon in the hope he could organise the chaotic supply system for Wellington's army in the Peninsula War.^[2] Berkeley recognised that only a dedicated and organised convoy system could keep the supply of men, food and material regular and consequently set one up. Simultaneously, he reequipped and galvanised the remnants of the Spanish Navy, rescuing several ships from capture by the French as well as used frigates to supply partisan units all along the coast of Portugal and Northern Spain.^[2]

By 1810, Wellington could truthfully say of Berkeley that "His activity is unbounded, the whole range of the business of the Country in which he is stationed, civil, military, political, commercial, even ecclesiastical I believe as well as naval are objects of his attention". He was promoted to full admiral and made Lord High Admiral of the Portuguese Navy by the Portuguese Regent in Brazil.^[2] By 1810 he had used sailors to man coastal defences all over Spain, freeing soldiers for Wellington and also formed a squadron of river gunboats to harry French units from major rivers like the Tagus.

I cannot say for certain whether it is this man who is mentioned on the plan, but his presence in Portugal and his work on the Iberian Peninsula could only promote my opinion that this is the "Berkeley" mentioned on the plan for this unknown Portuguese warship.

Further evidence (and close to home for me, I may have a look sometime if I can): https://legacy.lib.utexas.edu/taro/ricewrc/00005/rice-00005.html

Edited July 2, 2018 by Haratik

[Wind]

49 minutes ago, Haratik said:

I'm still trying to find out more detail about the plan.  The date 1811 is clearly marked, as is a name toward the bottom of the upper right corner paragraph: Lord Berkeley.  There's not much I can dig up on any Lord Berkeley that existed during the supposed date on the plan.  Of those with the title that existed, only one I can discover that served in the Royal Navy before and after the date, and he became a Sea Lord years later.

I'm afraid it's not much to go on right now, but there's clues to be explored.

Edit: I am mistaken, further research has revealed the service of a Sir George Cranfield Berkeley in the Royal Navy during this period, who happened to be stationed in Portugal during the years preceding the date marked on the plan up until the following year.  Wikipedia notes this:

Berkeley continued building his political status during the Peace of Amiens and by Berkeley had been appointed inspector of sea fencibles, a job he undertook with vigour, conducting a fourteen-month survey of Britain's coastal defences, which greatly improved the island's defences. In 1806, after a shift in political power, Berkeley fell out of favour somewhat and was dispatched to the North American Station. From there, Berkeley ordered the attack by HMS Leopard on the American frigate USS Chesapeake in retaliation for American recruitment of British deserters. This action, known as the Chesapeake-Leopard Affair, helped precipitate the War of 1812.^[2]

Having embarrassed the British government with this action, Berkeley was recalled home. However, public opinion supported his orders, so Berkeley was moved to command in Lisbon in the hope he could organise the chaotic supply system for Wellington's army in the Peninsula War.^[2] Berkeley recognised that only a dedicated and organised convoy system could keep the supply of men, food and material regular and consequently set one up. Simultaneously, he reequipped and galvanised the remnants of the Spanish Navy, rescuing several ships from capture by the French as well as used frigates to supply partisan units all along the coast of Portugal and Northern Spain.^[2]

By 1810, Wellington could truthfully say of Berkeley that "His activity is unbounded, the whole range of the business of the Country in which he is stationed, civil, military, political, commercial, even ecclesiastical I believe as well as naval are objects of his attention". He was promoted to full admiral and made Lord High Admiral of the Portuguese Navy by the Portuguese Regent in Brazil.^[2] By 1810 he had used sailors to man coastal defences all over Spain, freeing soldiers for Wellington and also formed a squadron of river gunboats to harry French units from major rivers like the Tagus.

I cannot say for certain whether it is this man who is mentioned on the plan, but his presence in Portugal and his work on the Iberian Peninsula could only promote my opinion that this is the "Berkeley" mentioned on the plan for this unknown Portuguese warship.

Further evidence (and close to home for me, I may have a look sometime if I can): https://legacy.lib.utexas.edu/taro/ricewrc/00005/rice-00005.html

Could it be his ship? Interesting read. 

[Wind]

Did little contrast work

[Haratik]

12 hours ago, Wind said:

Could it be his ship? Interesting read. 

From what I can find about him, my guess would be no, it is not a ship of his design, rather it is a plan drawn up of an existing Portuguese ship of the line at his insistence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships_of_the_Portuguese_Navy#1807_Fleet indicates (with a noted source):

These ships, in general, were said to be in good repair; and as to construction, equal, if not superior to the British.

So a further guess would be that he had orders to draw up plans of existing Portuguese warships to take back to the Admiralty to be studied.  With the level of good relations between the Portuguese monarchy and that of the British, I would assume he had little difficulty in executing this.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Haratik

[Wind]

4 hours ago, Haratik said:

From what I can find about him, my guess would be no, it is not a ship of his design, rather it is a plan drawn up of an existing Portuguese ship of the line at his insistence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships_of_the_Portuguese_Navy#1807_Fleet indicates (with a noted source):

These ships, in general, were said to be in good repair; and as to construction, equal, if not superior to the British.

So a further guess would be that he had orders to draw up plans of existing Portuguese warships to take back to the Admiralty to be studied.  With the level of good relations between the Portuguese monarchy and that of the British, I would assume he had little difficulty in executing this.

Prime research work. Thank you.