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Le Requin Testing and Feedback


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Tested on pirate frigate (64% square sail area  and 23% jib sail area). Left vanilla ship on the right side with only spanish rig.

Source for sail area: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vpd0gIGgJNqaRYqAppB3IbX_TX8zNhx-nVY1jq72QFA/edit?usp=sharing

I hope force mods will be reviewed during general mod review! @admin

Edited by z4ys
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23 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

 

@z4ys How fast so you think I can make a normal rattlesnake sail at 90 degrees? 

Because jib sail area of rattle is only 21% but main sail area 70% you can pimp her to max speed without that you need a 5/5 ship.

Edited by z4ys
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On 6/8/2018 at 6:33 PM, z4ys said:
  1. I checked and yards are at max position. Testing now what will happen when i twist the yards to the other side resulted in a ship turning left and less speed. First conclusion is that yard position reduces speed when sail is pressed against the mast
  2. The main mast yard should be on the other side ( I dont think that sail press against the masts has any effect ingame but it would change the odd look when wind is coming from starboard.
  1. The speeds should be the same if the course is exactly the same. If you switch the yards manually the speed decreases and then you have to turn the ship with the rudder to keep it at the same approximate course. Better switch the yards in Auto Skipper, put the ship at the right course and then trigger the Manual Skipper. The sail power is symmetrical even if the yard is on the other side.
  2. Switching the main yard could require animation modifications though. Also some xebecs had all yards on the same side for long travels on a same tack.

 

  1. There is too much 'sensitivity' when it comes to yard angles. The difference between sailing forward at 4 knots and sailing backwards at 3 knots is about 2 degrees of yard angle. Actually stopping is very difficult because of this.See, I'm sailing along at over 3 kts with my sails almost completely depowered.
  2. Sailing in reverse so fast would not be possible because the foot of the sail would collapse and create a much less efficient shape. Sure is fun, though.
  3. I often find that the xebec turns in the opposite direction I expected, when using manual yards. Examples (xebec should probably be turning right, not left):
    1. Main and mizzen are trimmed more efficiently that the fore
    2. Ditto, more pronounced example
    3. Main/mizzen totally depowered, foresail 'by the lee' (but should still be pushing the bow to starboard IMO)
    4. Foresail totally depowered, main/mizzen trimmed properly
  1. The gap between forward and backward can be increased.
  2. Backward speed can be decreased.
  3. The system doesn't include the additional torque due to the yard extending to one side (for turning direction, lateens are seen as square sails). Some effects can't be removed but some could be reduced.
    1. Could be reduced by decreasing the sail power at the angle of the front yard
    2. Without the additional torque, the rear yard is too open to completely counter the front
    3. Can't be fixed without the additional torque
    4. In this one the front yard isn't exactly parallel to the wind - if it was the ship should turn right

Lateen curves will be tuned later. Maybe the system could also be updated for more realism.

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28 minutes ago, Barberouge said:
  1. The speeds should be the same if the course is exactly the same. If you switch the yards manually the speed decreases and then you have to turn the ship with the rudder to keep it at the same approximate course. Better switch the yards in Auto Skipper, put the ship at the right course and then trigger the Manual Skipper. The sail power is symmetrical even if the yard is on the other side.
  2. Switching the main yard could require animation modifications though. Also some xebecs had all yards on the same side for long travels on a same tack.

to 1.

Do front and mizzen equal out the main sail area? I dont have the numbers but front and main sail look almost the same. So with all 3 sails up the ship will always do this (see picture below). AT least thats what the ship currently does ingame.

Unbenannt.thumb.jpg.1f8e6eaa474544674827230939922d48.jpg

So kind of impossible to compare the speed because the ship will always turn and lose speed and rudder use will reduce speed even more (and its kind of hard because its impossible to set rudder to a certain degree) But thx for clarification :)) that force is equal regarding on which side the sail is and that a sail pressed against a mast has no - effect.

 

to 2:

I agree on and its only a matter of taste really, because like you said rl physics like slipstream doesnt exist in NA. In my opinion it would just make the ship look better. (not that she is ugly)

1920px-DonAntonioBarcel%C3%B3ConSuJabequ600_600______chebec-70cm-01_23.jpg

20180608174623_1.thumb.jpg.d1e5b1f8835c34054aea5666836ac834.jpg

Edited by z4ys
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33 minutes ago, Barberouge said:
  1.  
    1. Could be reduced by decreasing the sail power at the angle of the front yard
    2. Without the additional torque, the rear yard is too open to completely counter the front
    3. Can't be fixed without the additional torque
    4. In this one the front yard isn't exactly parallel to the wind - if it was the ship should turn right

Lateen curves will be tuned later. Maybe the system could also be updated for more realism.

There are two reasons the sails make the ship want to turn:

  1. Force vector from the angle of the sail (I think you're referring to this as torque)
  2. Greater windforce being exerted on the bow, relative to the stern (or vice verse)

We can argue over which effect is stronger in the case of the xebec, and probably you would need to do the math to find the right answer. That explains the discrepancies in points 1-3.

But for #4, there is absolutely zero reason the vessel should be turning to the right. The sails are not exerting any kind of force that would lead to this result.

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2 hours ago, maturin said:

But for #4, there is absolutely zero reason the vessel should be turning to the right. The sails are not exerting any kind of force that would lead to this result.

If by #4 your picture #4 is meant and if I see the image properly, there is a reason for the ship to turn to starboard in the picture, even if the wind would come directly from behind. The center of effort of the sails is well to port frome the centerline of the hull. So, propulsion and resistance aren't balanced and lead to a turn to starbboard. Same as pushing your shopping cart with the left hand only.

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2 hours ago, z4ys said:

Do front and mizzen equal out the main sail area? I dont have the numbers but front and main sail look almost the same. So with all 3 sails up the ship will always do this (see picture below). AT least thats what the ship currently does ingame.

So kind of impossible to compare the speed because the ship will always turn and lose speed and rudder use will reduce speed even more (and its kind of hard because its impossible to set rudder to a certain degree) But thx for clarification :)) that force is equal regarding on which side the sail is and that a sail pressed against a mast has no - effect.

Yes the rig is unbalanced with parallel yards in Manual Skipper (like other ships), with the front having a bit more turning power. But it's possible to test the speed with all yards on the same side, by letting the yards switch in Auto Skipper. The speeds with all yards on either side should be very close.

 

2 hours ago, maturin said:

There are two reasons the sails make the ship want to turn:

  1. Force vector from the angle of the sail (I think you're referring to this as torque)
  2. Greater windforce being exerted on the bow, relative to the stern (or vice verse)

We can argue over which effect is stronger in the case of the xebec, and probably you would need to do the math to find the right answer. That explains the discrepancies in points 1-3.

But for #4, there is absolutely zero reason the vessel should be turning to the right. The sails are not exerting any kind of force that would lead to this result.

Windforce should be the same since there's no blanketing. Though in any case, in #3 the rear is depowered (no greater windforce) but the ship turns to the left.

In #4 you mean "there's zero reason the vessel should be turning to the left" ? In the screenshot it's the front sail which isn't totally depowered (catching wind at small angle) that counters the rear and makes the ship turn to the left. With a front sail depowered the rear makes the ship turn to the right.

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1 hour ago, Suppenkelle said:

If by #4 your picture #4 is meant and if I see the image properly, there is a reason for the ship to turn to starboard in the picture, even if the wind would come directly from behind. The center of effort of the sails is well to port frome the centerline of the hull. So, propulsion and resistance aren't balanced and lead to a turn to starbboard. Same as pushing your shopping cart with the left hand only.

Yes. The ship is turning to the left in-game.

 

Quote

In the screenshot it's the front sail which isn't totally depowered (catching wind at small angle) that counters the rear and makes the ship turn to the left. With a front sail depowered the rear makes the ship turn to the right.

It should be turning to the right. The foresail would be almost entirely useless at that angle.

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33 minutes ago, maturin said:

It should be turning to the right. The foresail would be almost entirely useless at that angle.

Yes, this effect can be reduced by decreasing the sail power at the angle of the front yard (same as #1).

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The Le Requin is the ultimate troll ship due to her good speed at most points of sail and the strange hitboxes for her sails. 

In a battle last night I was jumped by a Surprise in the Belize green zone and with the aid of reinforcements defeated him easily, but before the battle ended a Trinc and Endy joined on his side and although more reinforcements joined on my side they were too far away and ineffective. But I was able to keep the 2 fifth rates in battle for as long as I liked by either chasing them when they tried to run and keeping my distance so their stern guns did little damage, or if the chased me I could run upwind at 15.5 kts and pace it so my stern chasers could keep them tagged. If I wanted I could have kept them in battle for the full time unless they had managed to get a lucky hit on my masts and even then I am sure the sail repair would still have let me get away. I noticed too that it is very difficult for them to take your sails out with chain, not sure if this is to do with the positioning of the sail hitboxes.

I know this has been possible with other ships but the Le Requin is master of doing this.

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43 minutes ago, Archaos said:

The Le Requin is the ultimate troll ship due to her good speed at most points of sail and the strange hitboxes for her sails. 

In a battle last night I was jumped by a Surprise in the Belize green zone and with the aid of reinforcements defeated him easily, but before the battle ended a Trinc and Endy joined on his side and although more reinforcements joined on my side they were too far away and ineffective. But I was able to keep the 2 fifth rates in battle for as long as I liked by either chasing them when they tried to run and keeping my distance so their stern guns did little damage, or if the chased me I could run upwind at 15.5 kts and pace it so my stern chasers could keep them tagged. If I wanted I could have kept them in battle for the full time unless they had managed to get a lucky hit on my masts and even then I am sure the sail repair would still have let me get away. I noticed too that it is very difficult for them to take your sails out with chain, not sure if this is to do with the positioning of the sail hitboxes.

I know this has been possible with other ships but the Le Requin is master of doing this.

For me this is a big problem.  A piece of crap Xebec (all Xebecs are crap and don't belong in the Caribbean) shouldn't be capable of defeating a 5th rate

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Noticed today, since the update, that the Le Requin has 50/50 boarding prep without boarding activated and the value is higher if you have unused crew. Is this a change or a bug as I have not noticed it before. It means the Le Requin can initiate boarding without having to activate prep.

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Just now, Banished Privateer said:

Crew that stays on "boarding" station should be ready for boarding always. I like this change.

I agree with that but I was showing 50/50 on Le Requin when I had no spare crew, with spare crew it was greater. So basically I could fully man guns and sails and instantly board without hitting prep button.

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6 hours ago, Archaos said:

The Le Requin is the ultimate troll ship due to her good speed at most points of sail and the strange hitboxes for her sails. 

In a battle last night I was jumped by a Surprise in the Belize green zone and with the aid of reinforcements defeated him easily, but before the battle ended a Trinc and Endy joined on his side and although more reinforcements joined on my side they were too far away and ineffective. But I was able to keep the 2 fifth rates in battle for as long as I liked by either chasing them when they tried to run and keeping my distance so their stern guns did little damage, or if the chased me I could run upwind at 15.5 kts and pace it so my stern chasers could keep them tagged. If I wanted I could have kept them in battle for the full time unless they had managed to get a lucky hit on my masts and even then I am sure the sail repair would still have let me get away. I noticed too that it is very difficult for them to take your sails out with chain, not sure if this is to do with the positioning of the sail hitboxes.

I know this has been possible with other ships but the Le Requin is master of doing this.

 

2 hours ago, Oberon74 said:

I f you want this to be a super boarding ship, it should be made of glass...pros and cons.  Its crazy to have all pros.

I wouldn't  think that the xebec wouldn't be able to out run those ships going down wind. Maybe at 180 going wing on wing but any other angle greater than 90 xebec should be slower.

Other cons: should have high crew damage due to low bulwarks and large crew on deck. Even Le Requin as a French design (vs. Algerian etc) should have less strength (side HP) than a comparable sized square rigged ship.  Also removing ability to mount poods would be helpful.

 

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6 minutes ago, DeRuyter said:

I wouldn't  think that the xebec wouldn't be able to out run those ships going down wind. Maybe at 180 going wing on wing but any other angle greater than 90 xebec should be slower.

Well I was able to keep up with them and had to actually slow down so i did not get too close running with the wind and if they turned to chase me I just ran close to the wind and was doing 15.5kn and that is in a Teak?white oak build.

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9 hours ago, Archaos said:

a Trinc and Endy joined on his side and although more reinforcements joined on my side they were too far away and ineffective. But I was able to keep the 2 fifth rates in battle for as long as I liked by either chasing them when they tried to run and keeping my distance so their stern guns did little damage, or if the chased me I could run upwind at 15.5 kts and pace it so my stern chasers could keep them tagged. If I wanted I could have kept them in battle for the full time unless they had managed to get a lucky hit on my masts and even then I am sure the sail repair would still have let me get away.

Must have been some slow frigates or else they weren't trying to run away from you. They should have easily outran you downwind if they wanted to. I don't think any semi-reasonable Xebec build can hit 13km-14kn+ running broad reach or running before the wind. If it can...well that would need to be changed I'd think. Trinc and Endy can both reach those speeds at downwind angles without sail force modifiers.

But I do tend to agree with you about it being a good troll ship. Tiny upwind boats (Lynx, Privateer, Gunboat, Prince, and Xebec) make great trolling boats...they seem to be frequently used for that purpose too. "Just keep them tagged in battle while we assemble the fleet outside," situations are common uses for them. They'll be fast enough even at their worst point of sail to keep many slower square-rigged ships tagged long enough to serve that purpose. 

Thats not to say that this is all they are good for: there are plenty of examples where 6th rates beat other 5th rates or larger in PvP, but their trolling/griefing ability seems to be used frequently as well.

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3 hours ago, William Death said:

Must have been some slow frigates or else they weren't trying to run away from you. They should have easily outran you downwind if they wanted to. I don't think any semi-reasonable Xebec build can hit 13km-14kn+ running broad reach or running before the wind. If it can...well that would need to be changed I'd think. Trinc and Endy can both reach those speeds at downwind angles without sail force modifiers.

But I do tend to agree with you about it being a good troll ship. Tiny upwind boats (Lynx, Privateer, Gunboat, Prince, and Xebec) make great trolling boats...they seem to be frequently used for that purpose too. "Just keep them tagged in battle while we assemble the fleet outside," situations are common uses for them. They'll be fast enough even at their worst point of sail to keep many slower square-rigged ships tagged long enough to serve that purpose. 

Thats not to say that this is all they are good for: there are plenty of examples where 6th rates beat other 5th rates or larger in PvP, but their trolling/griefing ability seems to be used frequently as well.

I did some testing tonight and with the wind on the beam I can reach 15.5kts and maintain it till about 15 to 20 degrees into the wind, from wind abeam till running with wind I reached 14.5 kts at 45 deg, 13kn at 30deg, 12.4kn at 20deg, 11.7 at 10deg and 10,4 running with wind, all done using autosail. That is on a teak/WO build with pirate rig, navy hull and copper plating and running art of ship handling and speed trim, with 32lb carronades and carrying 63.9tonnes of repairs and rum in total. So it is possible to achieve speeds to keep most 5th rates in battle if they are not running elite spanish to run with wind.

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1 hour ago, Archaos said:

I did some testing tonight and with the wind on the beam I can reach 15.5kts and maintain it till about 15 to 20 degrees into the wind, from wind abeam till running with wind I reached 14.5 kts at 45 deg, 13kn at 30deg, 12.4kn at 20deg, 11.7 at 10deg and 10,4 running with wind, all done using autosail. That is on a teak/WO build with pirate rig, navy hull and copper plating and running art of ship handling and speed trim, with 32lb carronades and carrying 63.9tonnes of repairs and rum in total. So it is possible to achieve speeds to keep most 5th rates in battle if they are not running elite spanish to run with wind.

Hmm...very interesting and good testing too. I didn't realize they were that fast downwind. That could use some nerfing perhaps downwind.

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