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'HMS Java' 4th rate 60 Guns, 1813 (With Plans)

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This is a sectional view of HMS Java (60 Guns) I am looking to obtain more information. If anyone knows more about this ship please share. This can be a new British competition to Wasa. 

https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=4938

 

HMS Java

60-gun (this was the post-war rating when they finally counted carronades too) 4th rate frigate

Dimensions & tons: 172ft 0in, 145ft 1¼in x 43ft 4in (42ft 8in mld.) x 14ft 3in. 1,44930/94bm.

Men: 450 (comprising 343 officers and men, 47 boys and 60 marines).

Guns: UD 30 x 24pdrs; Spar deck originally 2 x 24pdrs + 28 x 42pdr carronades, from 6.1823 changed to 6 x 24pdrs + 16 x 42pdr carronades (with the ‘spar’ section left unarmed). Reduced to 50-gun in 1839.

Thanks. 

Y5nCQfP.jpg

 

4rXz8NY.jpg

large.jpg

 

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Edited by Wind
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You are getting your ships named Java mixed up, the Java captured by the US Navy was the 38 gun Pallas class frigate, she also had no career for the USA as she was burned after capture, originally called Renommee and built by the French. There was also an American 44 named Java that did sail for a pretty long career the USN taking part in fairly mundane anti piracy cruises off the US coast and Mediterranean. Finally, there is also the ship you have the plans to the extract from Gardiner's "The Sailing Frigate" if I'm not mistaken, the 60 gun spar decked frigate with numerous postings and a long but again fairly uninteresting history.

British 38: https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=4937

British 60/52: https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=4938

American 44: https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=2414

I think the devs also wanted to avoid spar decked ships but they may have changed their minds now. Gameplay wise she would suffer from the same issues that Constitution does, being unusually long and difficult to turn, whilst not packing an exceptionally good broadside. If you want a ship to match Wasa you need to just make Wasa more realistically balanced, either by taking away some of her speed, turning and thickness, making her properly like Gustav Adolfus or by removing her 32lbs and again removing some thickness modelling her properly on Wasa. The balance on a whole needs looking at slightly, hopefully this will all be done for release.

Edited by Fluffy Fishy
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3 hours ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

You are getting your ships named Java mixed up, the Java captured by the US Navy was the 38 gun Pallas class frigate, she also had no career for the USA as she was burned after capture, originally called Renommee and built by the French. There was also an American 44 named Java that did sail for a pretty long career the USN taking part in fairly mundane anti piracy cruises off the US coast and Mediterranean. Finally, there is also the ship you have the plans to the extract from Gardiner's "The Sailing Frigate" if I'm not mistaken, the 60 gun spar decked frigate with numerous postings and a long but again fairly uninteresting history.

British 38: https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=4937

British 60/52: https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=4938

American 44: https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=2414

I think the devs also wanted to avoid spar decked ships but they may have changed their minds now. Gameplay wise she would suffer from the same issues that Constitution does, being unusually long and difficult to turn, whilst not packing an exceptionally good broadside. If you want a ship to match Wasa you need to just make Wasa more realistically balanced, either by taking away some of her speed, turning and thickness, making her properly like Gustav Adolfus or by removing her 32lbs and again removing some thickness modelling her properly on Wasa. The balance on a whole needs looking at slightly, hopefully this will all be done for release.

 

This is the plans used for the American frigate Java/Guerriere/Columbia. It is a slightly upgraded version of Constitution, with six inches more beam, a brand new stern with much heavier stern firepower, and the War of 1812-era updates to bulwarks and head and all. sV3Ua1U.jpg?1

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7 hours ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

You are getting your ships named Java mixed up, the Java captured by the US Navy was the 38 gun Pallas class frigate, she also had no career for the USA as she was burned after capture, originally called Renommee and built by the French. There was also an American 44 named Java that did sail for a pretty long career the USN taking part in fairly mundane anti piracy cruises off the US coast and Mediterranean. Finally, there is also the ship you have the plans to the extract from Gardiner's "The Sailing Frigate" if I'm not mistaken, the 60 gun spar decked frigate with numerous postings and a long but again fairly uninteresting history.

British 38: https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=4937

British 60/52: https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=4938

American 44: https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=2414

I think the devs also wanted to avoid spar decked ships but they may have changed their minds now. Gameplay wise she would suffer from the same issues that Constitution does, being unusually long and difficult to turn, whilst not packing an exceptionally good broadside. If you want a ship to match Wasa you need to just make Wasa more realistically balanced, either by taking away some of her speed, turning and thickness, making her properly like Gustav Adolfus or by removing her 32lbs and again removing some thickness modelling her properly on Wasa. The balance on a whole needs looking at slightly, hopefully this will all be done for release.

It is British thanks. Could you verify ship plan? 

https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=4938

 

 

Edited by Wind

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The ship plan you used in the original post is the 60/52 HMS Java of 1815. Its a pretty famous design because of its legacy with the Southampton class as the text says. As far as I can tell none of ships themselves werent particularly well received though but i'm not very knowledgable about them, they may have a bit written about them in one of the later time period Rif Winfields books if you have access to them, if not i can look them up myself for you.

Edited by Fluffy Fishy
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4 hours ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

The ship plan you used in the original post is the 60/52 HMS Java of 1815. Its a pretty famous design because of its legacy with the Southampton class as the text says. As far as I can tell none of ships themselves werent particularly well received though but i'm not very knowledgable about them, they may have a bit written about them in one of the later time period Rif Winfields books if you have access to them, if not i can look them up myself for you.

I don't have them 'yet'. Did verify the BP they match.

QJRAjla.jpg

 

 

Edited by Wind

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Rather than type it all out methodically I have taken a couple of pictures for you.

From British Warships in the Age of Sail 1793-1817:

dPN6Evw.jpg

8upkI2i.jpg

From British Warships in the Age of Sail 1817-1863:

IF9rJaK.jpg

uqCT8H2.jpg

Enjoy :)

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On 5/18/2018 at 2:34 PM, Fluffy Fishy said:

Rather than type it all out methodically I have taken a couple of pictures for you.

From British Warships in the Age of Sail 1793-1817:

dPN6Evw.jpg

8upkI2i.jpg

From British Warships in the Age of Sail 1817-1863:

IF9rJaK.jpg

uqCT8H2.jpg

Enjoy :)

Thanks. 

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God, that thing is ugly...and the circular stern for the later ships prolly made things even worse :P

The only ones who managed to pull off a good looking true double-banked were the French, imo.

 

Edit: Just noticed, why is the Java in the SoL subforum? ^^

Edited by Malachi
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16 hours ago, Malachi said:

God, that thing is ugly...and the circular stern for the later ships prolly made things even worse :P

The only ones who managed to pull off a good looking true double-banked were the French, imo.

 

Edit: Just noticed, why is the Java in the SoL subforum? ^^

Technically it is SoL, it's heavy enough to sail next to thicker hulls.

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4 hours ago, Wind said:
21 hours ago, Malachi said:

God, that thing is ugly...and the circular stern for the later ships prolly made things even worse :P

The only ones who managed to pull off a good looking true double-banked were the French, imo.

 

Edit: Just noticed, why is the Java in the SoL subforum? ^^

Technically it is SoL, it's heavy enough to sail next to thicker hulls.

The changes Seppings made to ships are generally hideous, the move to iron frames including the iron diagonals mixed with the changes to sterns are the beginning of the end to the age of sail. It does mean that the enclosing of the stern made significant steps to make a weak part of the ship much more protective and in a lot of ways built more like the fairly sturdy bow but its such an ugly system that is the first step towards iron warships. Its kind of interesting British history chooses to mainly forget Seppings, while remembering Slade so fondly, Seppings had a much larger impact, but Slade's iconography wins out mainly because it goes in hand with Trafalgar, having designed Victory and nine of the other ships in the Battle.

Here are some examples of Seppings Sterns:

Circular_stern_diagram.jpg

large.jpg

nNJFSQm.jpg

large.jpg

If you want to see the most striking modern example of seppings and his work on stern features you can clearly see the difference between HMS Trincomalee and HMS Unicorn which you see the modification being applied to the Leda class frigates which stretched over this period, Trincomalee being the earlier of the two, Unicorn being built after the new stern models were in use, I will leave a second spoiler with these pictures in showing the differences:

Trincomalee With her Traditional Stern

P5214166.jpg

7cae64315b2c361ad90c8d27c6a754c8.jpg

The-restored-stern-of-HMS-Trincomalee..j

HMS Unicorn With her modified Seppings Style Stern

1962-1113-WRSAlbumUMove-019sweb-Tay-RNR-

24563286953_29bb6f9ff2_b.jpg

stern-gallery-png.26854

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26 minutes ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

The changes Seppings made to ships are generally hideous, the move to iron frames including the iron diagonals mixed with the changes to sterns are the beginning of the end to the age of sail. It does mean that the enclosing of the stern made significant steps to make a weak part of the ship much more protective and in a lot of ways built more like the fairly sturdy bow but its such an ugly system that is the first step towards iron warships. Its kind of interesting British history chooses to mainly forget Seppings, while remembering Slade so fondly, Seppings had a much larger impact, but Slade's iconography wins out mainly because it goes in hand with Trafalgar, having designed Victory and nine of the other ships in the Battle.

Here are some examples of Seppings Sterns:

  Hide contents

 

Circular_stern_diagram.jpg

large.jpg

nNJFSQm.jpg

large.jpg

 

If you want to see the most striking modern example of seppings and his work on stern features you can clearly see the difference between HMS Trincomalee and HMS Unicorn which you see the modification being applied to the Leda class frigates which stretched over this period, Trincomalee being the earlier of the two, Unicorn being built after the new stern models were in use, I will leave a second spoiler with these pictures in showing the differences:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Trincomalee With her Traditional Stern

P5214166.jpg

7cae64315b2c361ad90c8d27c6a754c8.jpg

The-restored-stern-of-HMS-Trincomalee..j

HMS Unicorn With her modified Seppings Style Stern

1962-1113-WRSAlbumUMove-019sweb-Tay-RNR-

24563286953_29bb6f9ff2_b.jpg

stern-gallery-png.26854

 

 

 

Not even close, this BP shows old fashioned stern. 

Y5nCQfP.jpg

This model has old fashioned stern, no idea why all the cry...whatever happened to this hull in later years I do not care. I am only concerned about ship on BP. 

large.jpg

Edited by Wind

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22 hours ago, Malachi said:

the circular stern for the later ships prolly made things even worse

I was responding to this. Also the model below shows the the modification of the Seppings stern of the Sandwich class, the subclass of the Java.

4rXz8NY.jpg

 

5 hours ago, Wind said:

Technically it is SoL, it's heavy enough to sail next to thicker hulls.

I also forgot to respond to this, which I meant to say surely if Java is considered SoL so should the US 44 gun Frigates, Chesapeake too, being a slightly smaller version of the design who all had thicker hulls than Java, when you look at specifics like this it quickly becomes a very blurred line.

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