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Only clans on the map?

Poison for the immersion and all who embrace the historical approach.

Would end as a big confusing mess because the diplomacy we have now walking on crutches would entirely fail, because with a myriad of three letter clans, you would hardly keep track of who is who and doing what and how you are supposed to behave opposite to them.

Nations give some guidance, some roleplay, clear the picture.

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And the problem of infiltration and hostile actions within the group would just shift from national level to clan level entirely. Still despicable.

So, what is won by omitting nations? I see only disadvantages.

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If you just demolished the block that keeps people in nations from fighting with each other then spy's could still be effective, and balanced. A good spy would not be obvious about it, trying not to get found and and hunted down by privateers. It would be a fair part of the game and not a trolling advantage that makes other parts of the game useless.
Not to mention the huge boost in content that would provide, the last floodgate for OW that opens up the possibility of outlaws, privateers, real piracy. Why this isn't already a goal for this game is beyond me.

 

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A good spy is as simple as a basic cutter anchored at large giving info on what ships left port and to where.

"Paranoia" would turn away every single player that isn't in your clan/clans.

 

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1 minute ago, Hethwill said:

A good spy is as simple as a basic cutter anchored at large giving info on what ships left port and to where.

 

But is'int this the problem? In real world if anyone was suspected of passing info to the enemy they would be arrested and have to stand trial, but in game there is nothing you can do even if you have irrefutable proof that they are doing it. Imagine the real world where spies could operate openly without fear of repercussion.

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Real life a fisherman was a spy. A tavern keeper could be a spy. A wench was certainly a spy and even privateer captains were spies.

Gameplay, how do you suggest to deal with this without giving way to said "paranoia" witch hunt ? 

I suggest all of you want to outlaw because of alt spies to drop your alt accounts as well, because solomon's law does not distinguish between "this alt" or "that alt". In the end all are the same :)

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Real life a fisherman was a spy. A tavern keeper could be a spy. A wench was certainly a spy and even privateer captains were spies.

Gameplay, how do you suggest to deal with this without giving way to said "paranoia" witch hunt ? 

I suggest all of you want to outlaw because of alt spies to drop your alt accounts as well, because solomon's law does not distinguish between "this alt" or "that alt". In the end all are the same :)

 

 

I do not know the solution that could not be abused in some way, but I do think that they have to recognize that allowing spies without some form of counter spoils the game. Personally I do not like the idea of outlaw battles as it can allow too much griefing.

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I think Admin gave the idea. Keep major military stuff out of general chats. Use clans comms.

Rest of the stuff, have to accept the fact that spies are reading. What they gona do ? Send ships to hunt ? Hell, bring it.

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Yes! Let us have tools for removing accounts from a nation based on accusation that they are spies! I would like to remove @Cr33D first, every time I sail with him to MT, some pirates are already there waiting for us, it's suspicious.

Next we'll remove Aloha, Salty and Hansa - they are suspicious too. Then finally Prussia will be pure and MINE! MINE FINALLY, spy free! MUWHAHAHAHA! 

No, seriously, provided that I'm the only one removing people, I'm really ok with it. If someone else had some power to remove them, it can be subjective and unfair, cause serious issues and destructive politics - if I won't have all the power, I completely don't agree with this idea. 

Edited by vazco
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Espionage, usage of the ruse de guerre, reconnaissance have always been a part of warfare, and accepted as such. There us little to be done about them, spies when discovered in peacetime are either jailed or sent home as they usually hold diplomatic immunity, in war they are executed.

Personally I would have an alt deal with them by sinking or running them off, would mistakes occur? Yes they would, every country that has held the death penalty has executed the innocent. 

 If the Articles of War were the rules by which we play, then there should be a judicial system in place to prove guilt or innocence in such matters, we cannot of course execute, flog, dismiss  them  from the service but perhaps we could 'sentence' them to become outlaws, pirates for a period of time.

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59 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

If you just demolished the block that keeps people in nations from fighting with each other then spy's could still be effective, and balanced. ... Why this isn't already a goal for this game is beyond me.

We had this in the beginning along with ffa pirate mechanics. As I recall new guys found it confusing somehow and the griefing got out of hand.

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38 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

I think Admin gave the idea. Keep major military stuff out of general chats. Use clans comms.

Rest of the stuff, have to accept the fact that spies are reading. What they gona do ? Send ships to hunt ? Hell, bring it.

Explained :)

 

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21 minutes ago, jodgi said:

We had this in the beginning along with ffa pirate mechanics. As I recall new guys found it confusing somehow and the griefing got out of hand.

I remember ffa pirates and it's nothing at all what I'm suggesting. Being a pirate or outlaw is a status and privateer is the counter to that. The food chain goes
traders>pirates>privateers>navy in a non-made up sort of way. Features support this all the way around not just for 1 nation and there will always be the navy><navy combat we see from PB's.

Pirates are still a separate nation and not a part of the meta like they should be. If you don't consider frenchies hunting KPR as "pirates" then you don't consider the pirate namesake as pirates, just another nation doing nation things. Pirates in this game don't exists outside of name, on that same token privateers don't exist. Just navy and  traders, about 50% of age of sail.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Hethwill said:

I suggest all of you want to outlaw because of alt spies to drop your alt accounts as well, because solomon's law does not distinguish between "this alt" or "that alt". In the end all are the same :)

My "friend" has an account in Sweden. He is a lord protector of a few ports, is active in RvR in times of crisis for Sweden, trades good with other swedes and increases Swedish power protection by hunting Frenchman around Fort Royal. When I'm in the area, he usually reports on my moves in nation chat, and he never scouts for me. 

I think it would be unfair to expel him from Sweden just because of his poor choice of a clan name (Alternative - as  an alternative to old, boring clans) and some random similarity of his nick to mine, yet this might happen if by chance I would sink some council member a few times in a row. 

Edited by vazco
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I think the biggest problem with alts is when you’re out hunting and being followed by a basic cutter - there’s nothing you can do... Unfortunately I see no real way around this but to make notes of who these “suspicious elements” are, sometimes they’re geniune new players looking for players to follow.

If somebody wants an alt for the purpose of getting resources, then I see no problem, just be prepared to lose your cargo to a captain from your own nation when transporting goods. I have attacked british alts in the french nation multiple times - it’s funny how these individuals considers it unfair to be sunk by a british captain..

I think the biggest mistake the devs can make is to allow certain players (moderators excluded) to have power over others.

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found the solution, you address the spy problem by letting players deal with it directly. If you imagine a sport like American Football where people can use their helmets as weapons, think how much damage you could do to other people and yourself; that's why there are rules and penalties to regulate the action in sports. You can have big hits but you can't hit excessively big without drawing a penalty, without the regulation the sport destroys itself. The reason we haven't gotten FFA or outlaw to work.

 

Edited by Slim McSauce
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1 hour ago, Percival Merewether said:

I think the biggest mistake the devs can make is to allow certain players (moderators excluded) to have power over others.

This power is already there - eg you can be excluded from clan by its creator. This is ok. It's important for power to not be arbitrary and instead to be based on real power in - game. It can't be also too overreaching. Excluding others from nation is this bad type of power. 

On the other hand some limited power over others is good to motivate people - eg if participating in PB's would give you power over deciding where your nation gets free outpost, it's a good type of power over others. 

Edited by vazco
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5 hours ago, vazco said:

removing accounts from a nation based on accusation that they are spies!

I was not talking about mere "accusations" but fair trials with a court of judges who also interrogate the accused. And in case of "abuse" the individual could still open a case here in forum tribunal.

 

4 hours ago, Percival Merewether said:

I think the biggest mistake the devs can make is to allow certain players (moderators excluded) to have power over others.

Complete incapability to deal with them is much worse.

So everyone is anticipating abuse of this tool even before a single case could take place, ever. I almost call that 'paranoia'...

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1 hour ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

I was not talking about mere "accusations" but fair trials with a court of judges who also interrogate the accused. And in case of "abuse" the individual could still open a case here in forum tribunal.

Did you have a chance to lead a nation and participate in internal and external politics? I had, plus I had official roles in two nations. There is usually a large amount of drama and nasty politics between fractions. Giving them tools to oust each other is like giving a razor to a toddler - sure, there is some slim chance everything will be ok, but somehow you anticipate trouble. 

You basically want to give razors to 11 toddlers and hope it will work out fine. 

 

1 hour ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

I almost call that 'paranoia'...

I call that experience

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2 hours ago, vazco said:

I call that experience

You seem to have little or no confidence in the human being. Again: This my proposal has no inclination to become a tool of tyranny, as it sees a council of experienced players and trusted nationals presiding over the court. You think they would like to risk their reputation and start sending innocents to the Pirates because they don't like them? Don't you meet any gentlemen in game?

In effect, your defaitism in law enforcement issues results in indirect encouragement of unfair player behavior and just lets assholes be assholes. And produces more of them, because "Aye, why the hell not, Vazco will close his eyes and we cannot be made responsible for treason ever! Let's do some more just to prove we are untouchable and invincible!"

Edited by Cetric de Cornusiac
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1 hour ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

You seem to have little or no confidence in the human being. Again: This my proposal has no inclination to become a tool of tyranny, as it sees a council of experienced players and trusted nationals presiding over the court. You think they would like to risk their reputation and start sending innocents to the Pirates because they don't like them? Don't you meet any gentlemen in game?

In effect, your defaitism in law enforcement issues results in indirect encouragement of unfair player behavior and just lets assholes be assholes. And produces more of them, because "Aye, why the hell not, Vazco will close his eyes and we cannot be made responsible for treason ever! Let's do some more just to prove we are untouchable and invincible!"

All you have to do is look at the British nation to see how this could end up a mess. Recently one of the main RvR clans left the nation after an argument with another large clan, I would assume both these clans would have been big enough to have people in the council. I am sure there would have been a major rift in council with both sides wanting the other kicked out of the nation. As it is the clan that left say they will not return to nation till the other clan leaves.

Its not about having no confidence in human beings, but realizing what people can be like on the internet.

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1 hour ago, Archaos said:

Its not about having no confidence in human beings, but realizing what people can be like on the internet.

We want the better ones to like this game and stay, don't we?

Assholes nobody will miss when gone.

You keep the better ones by providing justice in game and giving them a trusted home in a clan, not a nest of vipers. Not providing the ground for amok-running psychos who push new players instantly away.

Edited by Cetric de Cornusiac
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Guys this will not work!

Who should have the right to judge?

Read the posts in Forum and you can easily recognize, that a lot of players accuses even the devs of partisanship. Should "we" elect an high Court  and who is "we"?

Spies are no real problem! They are annoying, sometimes a little bit silly. 

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