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Cetric de Cornusiac

First Rates should become rare and very expensive = maintenance, baby!

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I know I will start here an unpopular suggestion. Many guys just love the feeling of sitting in fat ducks blowing up everything up in range of their multiple max cannon decks. Nothing wrong with the feel of invincibility and power. But how often and how easy? And at the expense of what other game content?

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Let's face it: the enormous costs of building and maintaining a first rate ship-of-the-line is not portrayed in the game properly. Anyone with a dockyard large enough and sufficient warehouse stock can build one or several SOL a day, especially when he has the support of his clan. We see in the hand of some major clans more First Rates than whole nations had in 18th century, and this is just one theater of operations (the Caribbean), while those nations had to distribute their naval power over several theaters, mainly Europe. So what we get in the game is inflation of First Rates - determining always the same maxed out composition of battle fleets in port battles. And as the SOL are so cheap, we even see ganking groups consisting of SOLs, which is absolutely ridiculous nonsense in naval authenticity. Why? Because SOL are for navy battles only and they were extremely expensive. Their lacking speed did not make them suitable for economy war.

The inflation of this overuse of fat ducks has undesirable side effects: other ship ranks become less significant. Almost nobody cares to build 2nd, 3rd rates - not to speak of 4th rate and lower, because fat ducks are so cheap and give the maximum fire power. So versatility suffers from the overuse. Tactics melt down to just brute force and nothing else matters. Who brings in more First Rates will win, who produces more a day keeps the upper hand.

Short glimpse back into history: First Rates were so expensive that just for being able to add one to the royal fleet, all merchants and businesses of a city would collect their money and sponsor a single ship, which would then gratefully bear the name of that city, for example "Ville de Paris". Navy reformer Duke de Choiseul went around France to encourage cities and regions to follow the example so the King would have enough ships. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Ville_de_Paris_(1764)

800px-Vaisseau_le_Ville_de_Paris_en_1764

If historically correct, a reduction of number of SOLs in Naval Action would altogether prove to be profitable for gameplay. We would see more options for setting up fleets for various purposes and other rates than the First would see a renaissance.

How could this be implemented?

An idea would be to give each nation a maximum number of First Rates, distributed as slots between all clans of that nation. So, if there would be a max number of 25 First Rates for one nation and six clans with, say, more than ten active members in the last month, each clan would get the Royal allowance to contribute four First Rates and the rest (1) by one of the smaller clans. Maybe this would lead to less port battles or just another composition of battle fleets participating there. A single port battle would gain importance. That's fine, because so often they really did not take place in real life.

Another idea, could be parallel with the first idea mentioned, has been touched already in this forum and I am all for it: having to pay maintenance for the largest ships, no matter if they are moored in docks or 'parked' in ship market. So you think twice before building them en masse. First Rates must cost daily money, and Second and Third Rates also, but to a lesser degree.

Third idea in that context is to introduce a cost inflicting each time to the owning clan when their First Rate gets sunk. They were highly prestigious symbols of power. A loss of a First Rate ship-of-the-line was felt as national tragedy. Not like in this game, where you shrug your shoulders and simply build another one. This 'prestige loss' could be expressed by deduction of marks, victory or PvP, to all clan members whose clan had that national slot for a First Rate which got sunk. A malus for the clan comparison ladder. Effect: eagerness to keep the First Rate alive at all costs. Smaller ships would be commissioned to protect the valuable First Rate - that's absolutely historic. Second Effect: enemy is even more keen on sinking First Rates, because then it would have consequences for the losing side beyond just another ship gone.

Edited by Cetric de Cornusiac
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What would be the provisions breakdown for a planned cruise, for a ship-of-the-line 68/74 guns ( or a 100 guns ), from Europe to the Caribbean for example ? 

A document listing everything would benefit the discussion, just can't get access to any for such a ship.( have entire breakdowns for privateers and traders, but not for frigates or sols )

P.S.- Logistics are not the forte interest for the majority of the community.

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You are mostly suggesting the approach of the stick. 1rst rates limited to a few privileged players, maintenance cost that would bankrup anyone taking a break from the game, etc.

Why not use the carrot instead? 

 

Since we have a fleet feature, add special bonuses to the fleet depending on it's composition. ex: Firepower or manoeuver bonus when 50 or 60% of it is made of 3rd rates, speed or manoever bonus when 25% of 5th rates, or speed malus when more than 20% of a fleet is made of 1rst rate., etc.

Edited by Serk
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I love this game because I am a fan of this era and like the historical accuracy in most cases.  I agree that there are far more 1st Rates in this game than we saw in reality.  The problem is weighing game play against history.  Everyone in the game wants to drive the Rolls Royce (insert luxury car of choice here). In reality, the 3rd rate was the Line of Battle workhorse and I would love to see that return.  I just cant think of any way to make it fair to limit any player in choice of ships.  If I buy a game that has HMS Victory in it, I want to drive that ship.  The best idea I have heard (this is not the first time the subject has come up) is to crank up maintenance costs to 1st and 2nd rates.  I also very much like the idea of a consequence for losing a 1st rate.

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I cannot remember the correct term but it was operating 1st rates that cost the money, if this cost cannot be paid place the ship in a state of unreadyness at no ongoing cost but it takes a minimum time period say 3 days and a reasonable cost to make the ship usable so anyone taking a break from the game doesn't get bankrupted.

 

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1 minute ago, Custard said:

I cannot remember the correct term but it was operating 1st rates that cost the money, if this cost cannot be paid place the ship in a state of unreadyness at no ongoing cost but it takes a minimum time period say 3 days and a reasonable cost to make the ship usable so anyone taking a break from the game doesn't get bankrupted.

 

"In Ordinary" was the Brit expression.

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1 minute ago, Oberon74 said:

"In Ordinary" was the Brit expression.

Thank you 👍

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i would start with changing more guns = more everything.

The reward should be tied to difficulty and not to dmg dealed. Currently why should I use a frig when i can get way more of everything when I use a SOL?

 

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The number of first rates that can be fielded by a nation could be defined by a ratio of ports owned. It will give more meaning to ports.

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A really bad idea. It has already been proven than limiting the type of ships people want to sail doesnt work well.

Who are going to be the "chosen ones" to sail first rates while the rest look at them?

 

Maintenance costs? Then only the players who live in the game can sail them, so the gap between the hardcore and the average playerbase gets bigger and bigger.

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47 minutes ago, Serk said:

1rst rates limited to a few privileged players, maintenance cost that would bankrup anyone taking a break from the game, etc.

When you go take a break, simply sell the First Rate to another one in your clan. It isn't that difficult. Your less-than-3rd rate would not cost you anything so they wait faithfully for your return to game.

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We can still discuss a more democratic distribution of First Rate slots per nation, other than preferring the largest clans. But as the massive ships would be so expensive, it is only logical to see them in the hands of the richest clans.

And I don't think the average player does miss much fun in the game if the fat ducks stay out of reach for him (until he is a trustful member of a clan - and did we not read about Admin's plans to encourage more the membership in clans? So here is one lure.), he still has a wonderful vast array of ship models to enjoy sailing with.

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Restricting access to ships in a game thats about ships is not the best idea.

People want to sail HMS Victory or Santisima simply because they want to (history and so on) and if they can't sail their favorite ship they'll just leave.

Edited by Batman
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While I hate seeing so many first rates around, I'm very much against limiting availability to just a few "special" players.....

I'd suggest giving players a 1st rate allowance - as a rear admiral you can redeem one every month and will be lost when you lose your ship. That means players are only "permitted" to lose one 1st rate per month.

If you lose your 1st rate you must wait 30 days to get a new permit.

By doing this you will allow the PVEers to have fun their way, but those of us doing PvP will have to be more careful.

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Bad idea....for many reasons - some of which are already posted here. 

 

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1 hour ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

An idea would be to give each nation a maximum number of First Rates, distributed as slots between all clans of that nation

While this Looks at first glance an idea worth putting Forward, could you imagine the shitstorm that will happen, if for example clan A took their alloted 4 first rates out and they were sunk.

Nation Chat would go beserk, clan A would be attacked on all sides.

Who would have to rebuild the lost first rates, those who lost them or the Nation. ( some Clans might not have the resources or funds to do this).

Who decides who gets to sail them, I can imagine a persons reaction, "naaah you dont get one, you are not good enough.

Who makes sure that those Clans with the ships are online when they are required, do all nations have to have a QRF available at all times."

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4 minutes ago, Batman said:

People want to sail HMS Victory or Santisima simply because they want to (history and so on) and if they can't sail their favorite ship they'll just leave.

If it is just for the self-esteem of sailing them, then do it on PvE Server where they would not cost anything.

Restrictions.

Every good game has restrictions. We also have them. You don't get upgrades until you have accomplished the necessary combat marks to achieve them from Admirality. You don't sit immediately in big fat ducks because first you have to climb the career ladder to command enough crew. You need to collect enough money until you can buy things.

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So why suddenly you have a problem with restrictions?

The more restricted the more there will be a reward feeling when you finally are entrusted with a First Rate!

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I think the game wouldn’t gain much by cranking up maintenance costs for the big boats - but it might lose very many players because of that!

In my opinion neither stick nor carrot would be a solition.

I think every player should have limited slots for the SOLs to reduce the number of them, but keep it possible for everyone to get a 1st rate.

I already suggested a system like this - feel free to comment and enhance it:

 

 

Edited by Navalus Magnus
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6 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:

I'd suggest giving players a 1st rate allowance - as a rear admiral you can redeem one every month and will be lost when you lose your ship. That means players are only "permitted" to lose one 1st rate per month.

Also fine idea.

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5 minutes ago, Glorgir said:

While this Looks at first glance an idea worth putting Forward, could you imagine the shitstorm that will happen, if for example clan A took their alloted 4 first rates out and they were sunk.

Nation Chat would go beserk, clan A would be attacked on all sides.

Who would have to rebuild the lost first rates, those who lost them or the Nation. ( some Clans might not have the resources or funds to do this).

Who decides who gets to sail them, I can imagine a persons reaction, "naaah you dont get one, you are not good enough.

Who makes sure that those Clans with the ships are online when they are required, do all nations have to have a QRF available at all times."

I am sure for all these secondary problems there will be suitable satisfying solutions once we together think it over and evaluate the pro's and con's.

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8 minutes ago, Percival Merewether said:

'd suggest giving players a 1st rate allowance - as a rear admiral you can redeem one every month and will be lost when you lose your ship. That means players are only "permitted" to lose one 1st rate per month.

If this is implemented I can see some peoples reactions, "OK, Ive lost my Santi, cant get another one for 22 days, lets Play something else, till my new one is ready"

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People here always complain about ideas pushing off players from the game.

What about people being pushed off by the omnipresent overkill by cheap masses of First Rates as we have them now? Does not matter if in the hand of mighty clans or single players. And it is the pro player who is sitting on a fat duck primarily. He will hardly "leave the game" because he will be the one who most likely will still sit on it, after this proposed reform.

Make smaller craft great again.

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I understand Cetric that you personally do not like first rates (or fat ducks as you call them), but I think you miss the point of that first moment you craft one.

I had one sat in  my dock for weeks before I used it, normally I played Mortar Brig, or the fast cap ship in PBs.

Just knowing it was sitting there was a great Feeling, I had maxed my rank and crafting, and I could finally make one, you can ask my old clan, I used to collect and craft all the necessary mats before even asking for a ship, so when it was made it was mine.

I know they are just Pixels, but damn it, they are my Pixels, and I earned them.

Who decides who is going to sail these rarer than unicorn poo first rates, lets just say Moscalb, Dron, Liq and Rediii are in one clan, would anyone give a first rate to John Q public, because he has reached rear Admiral, not a Chance, and even if they do, how well will he sail it, hes never had one before, doesnt know ist strenghs, how it sails under Manual sails etc etc. All you do is create an elite in each Nation.

Edited by Glorgir
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9 minutes ago, Glorgir said:

If this is implemented I can see some peoples reactions, "OK, Ive lost my Santi, cant get another one for 22 days, lets Play something else, till my new one is ready"

So let's dismiss the idea completely then - that's much better than coming up with a counter argument... What if the wait was less? could be a week? could be four days? I'm looking for a compromise that would allow you to do exactly this:

2 minutes ago, Glorgir said:

I had one sat in  my dock for weeks before I used it, normally I played Mortar Brig, or the fast cap ship in PBs.

Just knowing it was sitting there was a great Feeling, I had maxed my rank and crafting, and I could finally make one, you can ask my old clan, I used to collect and craft all the necessary mats before even asking for a ship, so when it was made it was mine.

I feel that it ruins the immersion that there are so many first rates around - it's still a mystery to me why the devs decided to add three 1st rates, two 2nd rates but only one 3rd rate model. There has to be more diversity in the 3rd rate segment.

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