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Reinforcement fleets: feedback


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1 minute ago, Christendom said:

Hard to have one of these when people aren't even safe sailing 2mins outside their own capitals.  

but remember it was more harsh on release. You could even attack your own. Do you have any theories on why you are connecting safety with online?

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7 minutes ago, admin said:

Would love to talk about reinforcements mirrors and their strength and numbers. Not individual skill of some veterans. :)


Lets also not forget that there is PVE ONLY server just in case.

So why did you ask for feedback? Who is chasing outside capitals? Noobs or veterans?

It seems that we have already the final answers: reinforcement work as intended by being close to useless for an unskilled player against a skilled one (while their purpose should be - in my personal opinions - the opposite).

As far as direct feedback I cannot provide, since I switched to "cautious mode" trading as in the good old days of no reinforcements (but also of no PVP marks!), so I just use tricks to avoid hunters rather that having to use (useless) reinforcements.

 

Edited by victor
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if the intention is safe but not invulnerable area  - mission accomplished

Why? Because imba 1st rates made it impossible to raid, yet it is possible under risk to still raid enemy shipping in the fleet reinforcement area. But as always new players dont benefit by those reinforcement fleets because

  • they dont know how to call
  • they run in the wrong direction
  • they dont stick with the reinforcement fleets

 

Edited by z4ys
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I think the more serious question should be what is the actual purpose of the reinforcement zones, what are they supposed to achieve. Till you actually define what they are supposed to achieve then it is difficult to tell if they are effective or not.

If I remember correct when they were first introduced one of the responses to the OP first rates that appeared as reinforcements was that they were supposed to be like the security forces in Eve (cant remember their name offhead) that turned up and destroyed violators. Since then things have changed with the new RoE and lesser reinforcements in the zones without a real explanation of what you are trying to achieve in these zones. Are they supposed to be safe zones for players or are they supposed to be hot beds of PvP action, because at the moment they seem to be seeing more PvP action than the PvP zones.

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3 minutes ago, victor said:

On a general basis it sounds very strange to me that all the hunters in this topic say that the reinfocements are ok, when such features should be there to defend the preys.

They are ok, just need to spawn right next to the player. 

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2 minutes ago, victor said:

On a general basis it sounds very strange to me that all the hunters in this topic say that the reinfocements are ok, when such features should be there to defend the preys.

I couldnt agree more, the hunters think they are okay because they can be overcome with a bit of skill, the problem is that all the prey that have any sense are doing their best to ensure they are not in a position to need reinforcements and so are unable to give feedback on the issue. As usual it is the inexperienced players that are taking the hit as they try to run and actually get further away from the help. Are these zones supposed to help new and inexperienced players or not?

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7 minutes ago, Archaos said:

I couldnt agree more, the hunters think they are okay because they can be overcome with a bit of skill, the problem is that all the prey that have any sense are doing their best to ensure they are not in a position to need reinforcements and so are unable to give feedback on the issue. As usual it is the inexperienced players that are taking the hit as they try to run and actually get further away from the help. Are these zones supposed to help new and inexperienced players or not?

Making suggestions that could pose risk to their main mark income would be silly. That is why we get such responses. New player responses needed here.  

Edited by Wind
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I have spoken to several players on this subject.  The hunters are laughing at the reinforcments because they are so easy to avoid and the newer players who are attacked in the green zone are astonished that their reinforcments are so useless.  Nation chat is full of players complaining about reinforcements that don't help.  I'd say that it is a failure in this incarnation.  If you want it to effectively protect players in the green zone, this is not it.  It is definitely no challenge to the hunters.

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13 minutes ago, Wind said:

Making suggestions that could pose risk to their main mark income would be silly. That is why we get such responses. New player responses needed here.  

That is true, but I thought the aim of the forum was to get true feedback so as to develop the game that would be better for all.

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AI reinforcements keeps me away from capital areas as I'm not in the least interested in fighting bots, regardless of how easy they may be too disregard or beat.

I don't care about new or old players hiding in reinforcement zones. I only care about those who want to fight, so when I have time I go to patrol zones.

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if the protection zone/reinforcement zone is supposed to protect new players from being attacked, then the desired effect has failed.

At this point we shouldn't even have a protection zone since it's become a false hope for players. Better to let reality be "it's harsh" then to give a false sense of security.
 

so...what do you want the protection/safe zone to be Admin?

Edited by Teutonic
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47 minutes ago, Otto Kohl said:

AI should not do all the work of protecting home waters - players should do that. Battle beeing open for the whole duration is enough help.

I would agree if the battle was only open for the whole duration to the side whose reinforcement zone was, but too many times recently the always open battle has been used to set a trap for a larger force, so people are wary about joining unless they have overwhelming force and even then they probably take a beating against a prepared force of attackers. If the attackers lose then they cry that it was only because the defenders had larger numbers and if they win they gloat that they defeated a much larger force, there is no win scenario for the defenders.

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I think people need to reevaluate what it means to "win" as well.  Everyone seems to think you only "win" if you sink the enemy ship.  Simply escaping is a win too, but for some reason it's not recognized as such.  If battle is open forever for both sides, it shouldn't be.  I wouldn't know, since I generally sail alone.

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57 minutes ago, admin said:

Would love to talk about reinforcements mirrors and their strength and numbers.

Mirror quantities and boost rate strength for uneven engagements. Ignore Victims ship. Spawn reinforcements close to the Victim. Add 25 seconds preparation with boarding/damage protection before Ai is active. 

Spawn x1 rate(-) under for 1vs1.

ex. Player 4th rate(enemy) vs Player (Victim)

      -Spawn 5th rate AI (4-->5)

Spawn x1 rate(+) up for 2vs1

ex. Player 4 rate/ Player 5th rate(enemy) vs Player (Victim)

     -Spawn 3rd rate + 4th rate AI (4-->3/5-->4)

 

Edited by Wind
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I enjoy hunting with my prince now. It’s a nice little challenge and totally fair play in reinforcement zone. I have to think of wind placement, I have to know that when I attack someone there will reinforcements id have to deal with and I have to get the job done quickly before any other player in their lineships jump into the battle. It feels like proper raiding again, and totally fair. The 6th rates feel very nice hunting the reinforcement zones. 

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With the battle being set open the reinforcements spawn is not the scariest thing that happens when sailing my prince. Even an enemy player that joins your battle on your side has influence on what happens. If a swedish 4th rate comes in my battle where I’m hunting down an indiaman with my prince, then I have to compete with the situation given to me or I have to just disengage. Which is fair I guess. Choosing a ship built with a unique sailing profile and enough power in crew or firepower to get the job done quickly and get out quickly is great. It does feel like proper privateering for sure, and I can’t complain.

Edited by Vile Executioner
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If you fought against them - what are you thoughts, do they provide enough protection to your enemy while keeping some risk?  Did you ever sink to reinforcement?

I haven't sunk to the new reinforcements nor do I see it happening. It was easy enough to avoid before let alone now. They are more of a nuisance to an attacking player rather than a deterrent. My hope is to tag them and that they spawn downwind so I can kill the player and then leave.

 

If you used reinforcements - when did they help and when they were useless?

They don't help really do anything unless it's a large group which provided some time to stall so other players could come help.

 

My suggestion

When attacking a larger player in small ship I feel they shouldn't get reinforcements at all. Adjust whether you get reinforcements based on BR. If they attack a trader brig with a trinc, they get a 1st rate super Victory as a reinforcement. If they attack with a smaller BR ship, they get nothing but obviously the battle stays open. It should be cumulative so if one person attacks in a snow and then a bellona jumps in on their side the defending player should be able to get reinforcements again.

It would encourage people to kill smaller prey without running away/calling reinforcements. It might encourage raiders to use small ships as they'd benefit from getting no reinforcements if they attacked. It'd be nice to not see enemy 1st rates sailing into reinforcement zones looking to nick a newbies brand new first rate.

Edited by Gregory Rainsborough
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2 hours ago, admin said:

Please provide your thoughts on the New class based reinforcement fleets. 

I've been in approx. 15 battles with new reinforcements, mainly around Gustavia and MT - always on attacking side. Approx. 70% were solo battles, 30% were with 2 people, one with 6. Feedback:

 

Do they work?

I've seen only one other captain starting a battle in a reinforcement zone while I was there. Most are waiting for being tagged. I guess they work and deter large groups from blocking capitals.

Are they deadly? - solo hunting

With a skilled captain attacking an unskilled SINGLE defending captain - usually no. New players don't sail to reinforcement or don't call them (maybe they should be told to do those two things). You can also escape from them easily by sailing up the wind and tacking - AI is horrible at tacking, and usually looses the wind when trying to shoot you. They also don't repair sails.

With a skilled captain attacking a SINGLE skilled captain - yes, they're deadly. I've lost a fight 2 times due reinforcements lowering my sides, and 1 time I had to disengage. I won only 1 such fight, by forcing a skilled captain to sail up the wind and cutting him from reinforcements. With a captain who stays close to reinforcements they're deadly - you won't angle once and a Cerberus can take 40% of your side on a teak/WO Trinc with a single salvo from close range.

The biggest risk with reinforcements is that once reinforcements join AND someone else joins the fight on enemy's, you're pretty much done. You either manage to disengage, or you sink. You don't want to get reinforcements on your side, as they will spawn additional strong AI on enemy's side.

Are they deadly? - group hunting

You can trick reinformements while in group by sailing close to them. They get focus on one ship, it hides behind an ally, and an ally sinks reinforcements. This however still takes a valuable time, in which you can't do anything else. In a group fights, where you have less control over what happens, reinforcements are a force that change things.

We've lost 4 battles due to reinforcements. At one point 4 ships joined (all frigates) and 4 pirates joined - we were done. At another point 2 Bellonas joined and 2 pirates, one of us sank after a long fight with less experienced players. Another time 2 frigates joined when we were fighting against a Le Gros. When we were almost done, a Wasa and a Frigate joined. Due to reinforcements lowering our sides at the beginning of the battle we lost a Surprise, our Trinc escaped.

 

Summary

They give a challenge to me (you can define yourself whether I'm a veteran or not). They prevent larger number of players from hunting around capital. They protect a captain who knows how to use them, and don't protect someone who doesn't. They can be a real help to a defending captain. Still, open battles are even greater risks, which were usually the main reason I sank in the zone (approx. 60% of times I sank).

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To talk a little on the games history I lived through it all. The topic of hunting near capitals is a good subject for me because I have done it all. I started as a US player long ago and I was given a surprise when I got to a rank where I could have 250 crew. I figured since the guy that gave me surprise for free was rich enough, I could use this to my advantage and hunt him down. I used his surprise that he gave me to kill his LGV and capture it and teleport to Mortimer town because now I was a pirate.

 

those days were harsh as a new player, but it’s what I enjoyed. Moving on...

 

im a pirate now and I enjoyed the thrill of hunting after my first victim. Next day I am in Mortimer town as a pirate, knowing I can attack my own without penalty other than possibly getting ganked and having to run away, I still risked it. When attacking even your own nation you got xp and gold. I was set on doing this until curse rank, which I did. I earned a reputation in these times, my nation hated me, but hunting outside capital waters is all I did. Log in, get pvp, log out. Was fun. Then first pirate vs pirate was removed, so now I decide to join british.

 

Im a british player now and I’m at war with french nation, I decided to raid there, using the small islands to hide and get cover, but there is forts now, things are a lot tougher for me. I have to attack him before fort range. Was a challenge for sure, but was successful for me nonetheless.

 

wipe came, outlaw battles are back, I join pirate. This time it’s free for all battles. Doesn’t make a difference for me, I did it anyway, still felt the exact same way. But people took notice, and started to do it with me, since it’s no longer a 1v1 deal, things got much easier for me, and also much harder, outlaw battles open for 30 minutes and there is no designated join circle, there has been plenty of times where a first rate spawned right in front of me 20 minutes into battle and I have to disengage.

 

reinforcement zones and the removal of outlaw battles, it’s much harder now. 2 first rates spawn when I am hunting french now. I have to keep my distance from the port, or get attacked myself. Which is never an advantage for a hunter. I want to make my own battles based on what’s in front of me. Success rate started to fall. I’d hang out in reinforcement gaps, but things are still tough, since people started to take note on the size of their zone.

 

now to modern times, I am a prussian privateer now, due to low population, I don’t have to compete with allys(this is why I enjoyed outlaw mechanics so much) I can play in the zone again, but it’s still hard. Battles open forever, anything can happen to me, nothing I’m afraid of though, I used to do outlaw battles that were 30 minutes open remember. Feels like the same exact experience I got when I was an outlaw pirate. And for that, since it is still hard, reinforcements can get hectic depending on the ship you use, it’s still very hard for a privateer, and it should be. This is the perfect mix between what we used to have in the past, to what it is now. 

Edited by Vile Executioner
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1 hour ago, admin said:

but remember it was more harsh on release. You could even attack your own. Do you have any theories on why you are connecting safety with online?

I'm not connecting safety with online.  But if you want to have an MMO that continues that retains it's players for longer than a weekend you need to put in some basic protections to ensure that your new players turn into older and satisfied players.  Most MMO games attempt to accomplish this.  Can you name me 1 MMO where a brand new player can travel forth 2mins outside his starting area and immediately engage and lose in PVP?  

I can't imagine historically that sloops and smaller frigates were openly sailing up to larger protected ports like Port Royal and capturing traders within clear view of the harbor?  Doubtful.  

The trade lanes to these ports were raided, which is precisely what needs to be happening with our game.  We should be having conversations about how to get these players OUT of the safe zones, not having conversations as how effectively one can raid inside of them.  We seem to be tailoring PVP to lazy captains who don't want to go out and properly hunt.  Why?  We should be thinking up ways to embolden the sheep and turn them into wolves.  

Edited by Christendom
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